[Hayek]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

But these numbers are collated based on countries. EU or Europe is a hugely diverse set of countries (and the number of countries in the EU has changed over the course of the year. Clubbing them together and see what the result is makes no sense to me.

You use social mobility in a different context here. Elon is a good example of how an individual can still make it big time. If you are born in a poor black family you are at a disadvantage to a poor white, immigrant or otherwise.

Think comparing tiny nations which in some cases are smaller than small towns you have never heard of in India or China with large diverse nations like India, China or the USA makes even less sense. Elon Musk may have had White Privilege (even though I disagree with the concept and the term) but Nadella, Pichai or earlier pioneers like Vinod Khosla and Indra Nooyi were clearly brown skinned, relatively poor immigrants with no network or connections when they reached the USA. While some of these folks came from well off families in India, I know for a fact that at least one of the above (who is a close friend of a close friend) came from a lower middle class Indian family, and grew up in circumstances that were far more impoverished than 90% of the population of Western Europe or America. And let’s leave aside the famous centimillionaires and billionaires - I personally know at least 50 people who hail from families with income of under USD 5000 per year in the 1990s, went to the USA with nothing but an undergraduate degree (not necessarily from IITs), and are today worth tens of millions.

I have not seen as many examples of such immigrants making it big in Europe - and still think that America is the land of opportunity - just that too many people there seem to be moving in the European direction of wanting state support for their own laziness than in the true American spirit of picking oneself up by one’s bootstraps and looking to grow.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Hayek

The fact is that the USA offers maximum social mobility - does anyone think Elon Musk (a South African immigrant) or Satya Nadella or Sundar Pichai could have made it as big anywhere in Europe bar the UK?

I agree with this. It isn't social mobility, it's unlimited opportunity. The US is the only large country in the world where people from smaller, poorer, blacker browner and yellower countries can come and become rich/powerful within the system. Sundar Pichai, Shantanu Narayen, Jan Koum, Pierre Omidyar, Sergei Brin are some names that come to mind. Let's not forget that first-generation children of immigrants like Steve Jobs and Barack Obama can get to where they are as well.

The closest would be the UK and Canada. I suspect it's the longer history of multicultural exposure (forced or otherwise) and the English language that do this.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Hayek

I personally know at least 50 people who hail from families with income of under USD 5000 per year in the 1990s, went to the USA with nothing but an undergraduate degree (not necessarily from IITs), and are today worth tens of millions.
.

I believe you are looking at exceptions

The notion of Europe being about state support and laziness is one I don’t recognise at all.

But I don’t think we are ever going to agree on any of this. My outlook and believe on what makes a prosperous and fair society is far removed from yours it seems. So be it.

Jeroen

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

The US is the only large country in the world where people from smaller, poorer, blacker browner and yellower countries can come and become rich/powerful within the system. Sundar Pichai, Shantanu Narayen, Jan Koum, Pierre Omidyar, Sergei Brin are some names that come to mind.

Why leave out Einstein from this list?

US is smart enough welcome to brilliant people from other countries to come succeed wildly in their country. But they are still a tiny minority. I remember how my colleagues in New Jersey used to be stunned that none of us from India had education loans hounding us.

Is USA helping its own poor black and brown to succeed? Even poor whites have very low chance to get out of poverty. The majority feel cheated and marginalized in their country. People don't feel like that if they had high social mobility and decent income equality. Isn't that what elected Trump in the first place?

If you consider Gini index (income inequality), India is up along with Canada and Australia, while USA lags behind.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gini-index.asp

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Why leave out Einstein from this list?

Einstein was already famous when he emigrated to the US, by default. He was on a trip to the US when Hitler came to power, and realised he couldn't go back. This was 12 years after he won the Nobel Prize.

Originally Posted by Samurai

US is smart enough welcome to brilliant people from other countries to come succeed wildly in their country. But they are still a tiny minority. I remember how my colleagues in New Jersey used to be stunned that none of us from India had education loans hounding us.

The fact of the matter is that most Indians cannot afford a college education, let alone qualify for a loan. 75% of Indian households - which is the vast middle - have an average income of 1.5 lakhs a year. This is also the average cost of an engineering degree.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Is USA helping its own poor black and brown to succeed? Even poor whites have very low chance to get out of poverty.

Poor and marginalised people in the US - blacks, Latin immigrants - still have a much higher chance of making it big than similar people in India - Dalits - do. There are no Dalit billionaires in India, not that being a billionaire is a very healthy indicator of anything. I would also wager (because I can't be bothered to research it now) that the median black vs median American income ratio is better off than a similar ratio for Dalits in India.

Originally Posted by Samurai

The majority feel cheated and marginalized in their country. People don't feel like that if they had high social mobility and decent income equality. Isn't that what elected Trump in the first place?

Feelings are good for politics, not for science (if economics qualifies as one). Politicians rely on feelings to get voted, for exactly this reason. The UK similarly voted for Brexit (hahahaha) and now they'll have to clean their own toilets. There was no truth to the immigration scares or the NHS fake numbers.

Originally Posted by Samurai

If you consider Gini index (income inequality), India is up along with Canada and Australia, while USA lags behind

Yeah, possibly because all the unaccounted wealth in India isn't taken into consideration. In a country where most government jobs now cost crores to get into, I wouldn't trust a coefficient made up of only reported and taxed income.

Originally Posted by Hayek

...moving in the European direction of wanting state support for their own laziness than in the true American spirit of picking oneself up by one’s bootstraps and looking to grow.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

...
The notion of Europe being about state support and laziness is one I don’t recognise at all.

The truth is somewhere in between. Europeans aren't lazy or using the state to support it. As a result of years of global dominance (yes sometimes brought about by colonialism), northern and western European governments are able to provide their citizens with a certain assured level of lifestyle, whether or not they have a job. Free education, universal and free healthcare, unemployment support are things we should all aspire to provide to everyone, wherever and whomever they may be. If a few people choose to take undue advantage of this system, it does not mean the system itself is bad.

Having said that, the US is certainly kinder to brown and black people. Except for Anshu Jain, I cannot recall a single Indian (origin or native) who runs a large EU company. If there are any, I don't think it's comparable to the US. It cannot be that Indians (or other immigrants) suddenly seem to lose all capability the minute they hit European shores. Of course, the systemic racism that Anshu Jain experienced inside Deutsche Bank is well documented in Dark Towers.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Einstein was already famous when he emigrated to the US, by default.

That was a joke, with a wink emoji. I recall someone was lamenting lack of humor recently.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

The fact of the matter is that most Indians cannot afford a college education, let alone qualify for a loan. 75% of Indian households - which is the vast middle - have an average income of 1.5 lakhs a year. This is also the average cost of an engineering degree.

You mentioned people from my era (Satya/Sunder) when engineering education was dirt cheap. My 4 year tuition was ₹9000 since I went to private college, it was ₹3200 in BMSCE (aided private) and ₹1200 in UVCE (govt). Yes, this is for 4 years. My dad had a salary of 1L/year (near retirement) and he could afford it. After that 1991 reforms happened, and college fees started going up with everything else.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Poor and marginalised people in the US - blacks, Latin immigrants - still have a much higher chance of making it big than similar people in India - Dalits - do.

No. I have mentioned this before:

Originally Posted by Samurai

Compare the condition of lower class from now to 40 years back. You will see a huge difference. I am old enough to remember. In the 70s, a servant's kid didn't have ambition beyond getting a sweeper job in a stable company. Right now, my cook's daughter is preparing for IAS exam. And the kids of our farm hands from the 80s/90s, they are working in MNCs or moved abroad. Because of the social policies of the government, upward mobility is quite possible in India.

I also had the privilege of running a software company in a rural area (you have visited in 2006, I remember) for 14 years, I used to hire plenty of first graduates in the family, I mean kids of truck drivers, auto drivers, tailors, house painters, plumbers, etc. Since education is nearly free and accessible thanks to reservation, they all have moved up. Their very first salary used to be higher than their parent's salary. So you can't tell me Dalits don't have upward mobility.

Originally Posted by Samurai

There are no Dalit billionaires in India, not that being a billionaire is a very healthy indicator of anything.

Obviously, billionaire is no indication of upward mobility. I would consider 1000 millionaires more healthy/useful to the society than 1 billionaire.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Samurai

That was a joke, with a wink emoji. I recall someone was lamenting lack of humor recently.

Haha touché.

Originally Posted by Samurai

You mentioned people from my era (Satya/Sunder) when engineering education was dirt cheap. My 4 year tuition was ₹9000 since I went to private college, it was ₹3200 in BMSCE (aided private) and ₹1200 in UVCE (govt). Yes, this is for 4 years. My dad had a salary of 1L/year (near retirement) and he could afford it. After that 1991 reforms happened, and college fees started going up with everything else.

My point stands. The average Indian household income for the great middle (not even disadvantaged) is as much as one year's engineering fees. This is not the case in the US. Student debt may be bad but it's still optional - Indians often don't have a choice. Also, being debtless in the US is a function of a subsidised (taxpayer) education in India, so someone was paying for it.

Originally Posted by Samurai

I also had the privilege of running a software company in a rural area (you have visited in 2006, I remember) for 14 years, I used to hire plenty of first graduates in the family, I mean kids of truck drivers, auto drivers, tailors, house painters, plumbers, etc. Since education is nearly free and accessible thanks to reservation, they all have moved up. Their very first salary used to be higher than their parent's salary. So you can't tell me Dalits don't have upward mobility.

I did not visit you, I'm guessing that was Steer? We also hire many first time grads, whose salaries are higher than their entire household income was, so I am aware of the situation. While Dalits have upward mobility, they still do not have the same amount that black people have in the U.S. There are no Dalit mainstream cultural or sports icons, to take one important example.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Obviously, billionaire is no indication of upward mobility. I would consider 1000 millionaires more healthy/useful to the society than 1 billionaire.

I agree. But unfortunately, I cannot think of a single Dalit who is known to be worth 100 million by legal means. I can think of at least 10 black people in the U.S. who are worth that, and I'm sure there are many more.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

I did not visit you, I'm guessing that was Steer?

No, Rahul came with 5 others in a Baleno. I thought you were one of them. Steeroid visited in different times.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

I agree. But unfortunately, I cannot think of a single Dalit who is known to be worth 100 million by legal means.

They do exist: https://yourstory.com/2018/01/dalit-entrepreneurs

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by Hayek

\
I have not seen as many examples of such immigrants making it big in Europe - and still think that America is the land of opportunity - just that too many people there seem to be moving in the European direction of wanting state support for their own laziness than in the true American spirit of picking oneself up by one’s bootstraps and looking to grow.

In USA tech world, your skin color,caste/religion** and race have little impact. However, in Europe it can be quite difficult to break the glass ceiling if you belong to a visible minority. Inspite of the hate USA gets online, USA (and canada) are best countries for immigrants who do not look like the local population both from a success and assimilation POV

That said America is very harsh if you do not have rich parents. You brought up middle class Indian families. but these middle class kids had to do college in India. For example I paid 6000rs/year for my Engineering college fees (not IIT, but REC). In USA if all you could afford is 100$/year for college (or 10X that if you bring in PPP) you won't be able to do engineering.

So pulling up by the bootstraps becomes impossible if you have to work a minimum wage job in school to eat food.

None of the immigrants you talked about making big in USA had to spend 8 hours working in a chai shop to feed their family.
So they could use their hours studying.

This is something poor kids in USA have to deal with, which their < 5000$ earning counterparts in India never had to deal with.

So I would not call it laziness. Its just unfortunate circumstance those kids have no control over. Some of them still make it big, but overall its a big uphill battle.

now you can drop out of college and still make it big, but those are outliers.

**caste because it can have an impact if your manager is Indian.. see Exhibit A - https://thewire.in/caste/california-...s-will-re-file
(Lawsuit is dropped and will be refiled in state court because Federal statue does not recognize caste based discrimination)

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Poor and marginalised people in the US - blacks, Latin immigrants - still have a much higher chance of making it big than similar people in India - Dalits - do. There are no Dalit billionaires in India, not that being a billionaire is a very healthy indicator of anything. I would also wager (because I can't be bothered to research it now) that the median black vs median American income ratio is better off than a similar ratio for Dalits in India.

Actually its not that black or white. Very poor people in India are worse off than those in USA in many ways. However lower middle class, and the class just below that have higher chance of upwards mobility through education as compared to poor people in USA ( color is irrelevant). Now with cost of college education rising in India, we may fall back again, but until now, due to lower cost of education, esp for reserved castes ensures many of them can rise. A lot of them go to USA because even rising economic status does not give them social status (read link Samu shared). But that's a social discussion not an economic one,

Having said that, the US is certainly kinder to brown and black people. Except for Anshu Jain, I cannot recall a single Indian (origin or native) who runs a large EU company. If there are any, I don't think it's comparable to the US. It cannot be that Indians (or other immigrants) suddenly seem to lose all capability the minute they hit European shores. Of course, the systemic racism that Anshu Jain experienced inside Deutsche Bank is well documented in Dark Towers.

Agree with this. USA/Canada are a better bet if you want to rise up the ladder

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Samurai

No, Rahul came with 5 others in a Baleno. I thought you were one of them. Steeroid visited in different times.

5 people in a Baleno to Udupi? Not me for sure!

Originally Posted by Samurai

They do exist: https://yourstory.com/2018/01/dalit-entrepreneurs

Thanks for this. It's certainly encouraging. I was only aware of Kalpana Saroj.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

That said America is very harsh if you do not have rich parents...

This is very well put. Thanks.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Actually its not that black or white. Very poor people in India are worse off than those in USA in many ways.

Yes, these are the people I was referring to.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

In USA tech world, your skin color,caste/religion** and race have little impact.

I spend four years working at the Sprint Camous in Overland Park. A very high tech centre, 30.000 people. Lots of high tech companies, in the Overland Park area. e.g. Sprint, Boeing, Garmin. A very affluent area full of high tech companies and techies and engineer. I was the CEO of a very high tech company with about 8000 employees.

It was rare to see black people on the campus If you saw one chances are they worked in one of the many cafeteria or were part of the fascility team.

Same in my organisation I hate to admit. It was also extremely difficult to change. I managed to increase the gender diversity in my company over the four years I spend in India. Almost quadrupled it, but admittedly it was embarrassing low to start with. But getting more blacks into any part of the organisation in the USA proved to be a mission impossible.

It is the same in many profession in the USA. How many black commercial pilots do you think there are in the USA? NASA managed to land on Mars successfully last week. Check out the video of the NASA control centre and try and count the black technicians in that control room during that crucial moment.

I had the pleasure of attending several courses at Stanford Univeristy in Palo Alto. Spend several weeks out there. Same thing, very few black people. Those I did meet were standing on the other side of the counter from me and my colleagues.
Everybody at Stanford wants to become an entrepreneur solve some of the worlds big problem and become the next Elon. But they were not even remotely interested in finding solutions for these huge racial inequalities that are still rampant in the USA.

Look it up, but blacks in particular are underrepresented in many high tech sectors. Asian do pretty good. Stanford was full of Asians who paid handsomely to get a degree.

Going by some of the earlier comments I guess the Blacks are just lazy and don’t put their backs into becoming successfully enough? The sad truth is, there are quite a few people in the USA, and some on this forum, who might think like that.

Jeroen

[Hayek]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

That said America is very harsh if you do not have rich parents.... middle class kids had to do college in India. I paid 6000rs/year for my Engineering college fees (not IIT, but REC). In USA if all you could afford is 100$/year for college (or 10X that if you bring in PPP) you won't be able to do engineering.

Agree that tuition in US private universities in exorbitant, even relative to the overall cost of living there. But you do have perfectly decent State University systems, from which you can get perfectly good engineering degrees and make it in tech. I have friends who went for their Masters to places like Arizona State, SUNY Buffalo or Iowa State, not just the top rated systems like Univ of California - and are doing extremely well now. I think the problem is that skill oriented degrees from state universities are less prestigious than a traditional liberal arts curriculum - and while an Ivy League style liberal arts curriculum produces the best generalists, for kids seeking a path out of poverty, technical skills in engineering or accounting are a far more reliable path, even in the USA. Proper counselling for kids on a path that would let them make it to the upper middle class, instead of fatuous advice on following their heart in pursuing “Colonial Studies” would probably be more useful here.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Going by some of the earlier comments I guess the Blacks are just lazy and don’t put their backs into becoming successfully enough? The sad truth is, there are quite a few people in the USA, and some on this forum, who might think like that.

Jeroen

You point is valid, however the reason they are under-represented has more to do with poverty. How many people in these ivy league compartments come from poor families (white, black, latino etc.,).

Asian immigrants are over represented because just to get to USA they have to meet the standards of an upper middle class family.
If you take a look at Asian Immigrants who came to USA through Asylum or undocumented you will see them on the other side of the counter. Because most Asians seen in USA came to USA with a white collar job in their hand, they can make it.

So the barrier in USA is economic. There is little cultural barrier to having a CEO of different religion and appearance. That was the point I was making about assimilation etc., Far easier to assimilate and make a life in the USA for people than in Europe if you take people of same economic standing.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Hayek

A. Proper counselling for kids on a path that would let them make it to the upper middle class, instead of fatuous advice on following their heart in pursuing “Colonial Studies” would probably be more useful here.

How is this system of proper counselling to be funded? Who decides what proper counseling is? Authorities? Parents? Students? Who sets the standards and who is responsible for adherence to these. Does everybody get access to these counsellors or is there some sort of criteria to be met.

And again, how do you want to fund this? Somebody need to cough up the money to think it through, hire people, train people, employ coaches etc.

I also don’t understand why following your heart is “less” apparently than becoming upper middle class? Is that we need to strive for? Becoming upper middle class? I find the fascination for only monetary award a bit scary.

So becoming a teacher at a primary school is not a good enough ambition? My daughter has a bachelor in theatre production. She is an editor of Tv drama productions. She loves her job, but she will never be upper middle class income wise.

Many jobs require solid training and various degrees, but don’t necessarily get you into that upper middle class segment by a long shot. Maybe those folks are motivated by other things, or are they just lazy and not ambitious enough?

Jeroen

[Hayek]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I also don’t understand why following your heart is “less” apparently than becoming upper middle class? Is that we need to strive for? Becoming upper middle class? I find the fascination for only monetary award a bit scary.

So becoming a teacher at a primary school is not a good enough ambition?

You are missing the context here - which started with a discussion on mobility across income groups. There is nothing wrong with folks choosing occupations that give them non monetary satisfaction. But then they should not crib that they make less money than those who follow the money trail. And as a class, if folks from poor backgrounds want to break out of the poverty trap and get opportunities for themselves and subsequent generations, they need to focus on building wealth.

You may find Indians like me very materialistic. But I don’t think you have ever seen a world where parents had to run around to get a couple of glasses of milk for their kids - or where buying a black and white TV was the ultimate achievement / which was true for my parents bring us up in the 1970s India. My son can afford to pursue his heart - I certainly couldn’t do that.