[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

The other funny part is that everyone is painting Delhi as a city held hostage by rowdy bikers and the rule of law has broken down. Funny - I thought this kinda mess happened only at late nights at areas around Bangla Sahib.

Unless police is lying, they have issued hundres of challans for this issue.

Several cases of rioting, criminal assault have been registered and hundreds of challans have been issued during the last 2 months.

If they already have assault and rioting casses, this is serious.

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by akshay1234

Pray, do tell, how are 3 police personnel supposed to control a violent mob of a 100+, that too attacking them?

I already did in post 150.

Now how will 1 cop control a mob of 200? I suppose, use an semi-automatic AK47 and spray bullets into the crowd and take out couple dozen?

The answer is he cant...Leave the scene if he fears for his life and call for backup where an required number show up and use techniques like tear-gas, water cannons, lathi charge, rubber bullets etc etc.

PS: I dont believe the accusation that they were attacked. Like Amitoj said, all the made up stories without evidence to support.

At the end of the day, the so called mob is not harming other innocent people so why shoot?

I'm not saying that the bikers are innocent or that they are saints, but they need to be caught and thrown in jail for this....not shot at.

[Aceman82]

Originally Posted by amitoj

There is no evidence to back any of the above, except d. All are just police accounts.

In the similar light, there is no evidence to prove that any of the above did not happen also. Given a choice between believing police accounts (or) no account with pure hypothesis, the benefit of doubt goes to the police story.

Originally Posted by Mpower

I already did in post 150.

Now how will 1 cop control a mob of 200? I suppose, use an semi-automatic AK47 and spray bullets into the crowd and take out couple dozen?

The answer is he cant...and he needs to call for backup where they use techniques like tear-gas, water cannons, lathi charge, rubber bullets etc etc. Leave the scene if necessary.

So the next time some rowdy element or a mob tries to insight violence the police should just escape from the area , go a nice watch tower, eat pop corn with coke if possible and then finally when everything is finished file some ineffective FIR which will result in no conviction ? If this is the alternate option being mentioned then i am not sure what to say.

Originally Posted by Mpower

At the end of the day, the so called mob is not harming other innocent people so why shoot?

I'm not saying that the bikers are innocent, but they need to be caught and thrown in jail for this....not shot at.

Just in this thread there is Humpteen examples of biker menace in the National capital , if leniency if given it will only embolden more unscrupulous elements for more daring and risky stuff which will cause harm to innocent people. Now people will think twice before doing stunts and parents will think thrice before sending their kids with bikes in night.

Also If the bikers cannot be apprehended due to huge numbers and fast bikes, throw stones , do not surrender, makes a fool of law and order, what does one expect the Police to do ? Here we get angry if police does not take any action and we get equally angry if the Police takes action also.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by Aceman82

In the similar light, there is no evidence to prove that any of the above did not happen also. Given a choice between believing police accounts (or) no account with pure hypothesis, the benefit of doubt goes to the police story.

Also If the bikers cannot be apprehended due to huge numbers and fast bikes, throw stones , do not surrender, makes a fool of law and order, what does one expect the Police to do ? Here we get angry if police does not take any action and we get equally angry if the Police takes action also.

The burden of proof lies on the police that shot down someone who was not an immediate threat to them, from the fact that the victim was shot in the back.
Its the police that needs to justify its actions and prove that the death was an accidental death.
Its the police that needs to justify why firing a weapon seemed like such a good idea to them at that time.

Because otherwise we are not very far away from a police state.

And "taking action" does not have to mean shoot down someone who deserves to be put behind bars. Putting them behind bars is also an "action" and definitely should be preferred over mowing down suspects. At least in a country that boasts of a thousands of years old civilization.

[download2live]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Because otherwise we are not very far away from a police state.

Given the kind of animals roaming around these days, especially in Delhi, I would rather prefer that.

In western countries, this idea of not touching the culprits holds value.
There the Police know that the guy can insult, attack and do whatever. But at the end the guy will be caught and swiftly punished. (Rare in India. Come on, admit it).

Here in India, the Police knows that they will be humiliated, jeered and at the end "Do you know who my Uncle is" card will be flashed.

I am 100% sure that Police were insulted and abused and they decided to show some teeth and pre-empt the flashing of the "Do you know who my Uncle is" card.

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by Aceman82

go a nice watch tower, eat pop corn with coke if possible and then finally when everything is finished file some ineffective FIR which will result in no conviction ?

If this is the alternate option being mentioned then i am not sure what to say.

Better not say anything then...if this is all you understood from the points I made about calling a backup force, teargas etc etc

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by Aceman82

In the similar light, there is no evidence to prove that any of the above did not happen also. Given a choice between believing police accounts (or) no account with pure hypothesis, the benefit of doubt goes to the police story.




So the next time some rowdy element or a mob tries to insight violence the police should just escape from the area , go a nice watch tower, eat pop corn with coke if possible and then finally when everything is finished file some ineffective FIR which will result in no conviction ? If this is the alternate option being mentioned then i am not sure what to say.

Just in this thread there is Humpteen examples of biker menace in the National capital , if leniency if given it will only embolden more unscrupulous elements for more daring and risky stuff which will cause harm to innocent people. Now people will think twice before doing stunts and parents will think thrice before sending their kids with bikes in night.

Also If the bikers cannot be apprehended due to huge numbers and fast bikes, throw stones , do not surrender, makes a fool of law and order, what does one expect the Police to do ? Here we get angry if police does not take any action and we get equally angry if the Police takes action also.

Exactly, its not as if this is the first incident of police action against these bikers. As I mentioned earlier, over a 1000 challaans were issued from July 5th itself. But did that stop the problem? Instead, look at the results now.
Breaking the law and assaulting the cops should invite punishment, and I totally support the police action in this case.
I do not support that the police should wait before some of their own people die and then open fire. The policemen are authorized to use their firearms in self defence and should not have to fear the law in cases where they have done their duty properly.

What an absurd situation when the criminals mock the law, and the police are scared of the law.

IF people feel so strongly about the cops being trigger happy and feel that they should be only armed with rubber bullets, tear gas, and lathis, please move the court and ask for the changes to be made in the IPC and the police manuals. Lets see if the judges share your wisdom.

[bruiser]

I think its a case of cops doing too much too late. This has been happening for years. I have been living in NCR since 2002 and I witnessed it back then as well.

The only issue I have with shooting someone down is:

1. Did they try to catch that guy? They could have noted down the number and made arrests later, assuming it was tough to catch those hooligans on that day itself

2. Since this has been happening for sometime, how many arrests were made for such crimes/occurences

3. Is it wise to be a trigger happy society, wherein we feel shooting people down is the only way to make them realize they are at fault

All said, none of us were there at that time, maybe the cops felt threatened and did the right thing. Maybe.

I dont feel a kid has the balls to do this to a cop, especially cops from NCR.

[DWind]

A quick question on shooting? Has there been any forensic report on the person who has been shot? It might reveal the trajectory of the bullet entering the body from which it can be deduced if the POLICE were really shooting somebody's Tyres and this person got shot while doing a wheelie.

[sinharishi]

Originally Posted by DWind

A quick question on shooting? Has there been any forensic report on the person who has been shot?

Nothing official,but the mother of the victim has demanded a five-doctor team to conduct post-mortem.

[sgiitk]

Let us not forget if it were the US police would have fired to kill much earlier.

[gd1418]

I said that "someone somewhere might be having an emergency". Do we want to wait for such a thing to happen and then wake-up and start blaming the authorities for doing nothing?

And Sen, I've a small chip on the shoulder about Delhi. While I agree that "almost all other bad things happening in Delhi", does it mean that the other cities are bereft of that?

But we are digressing from the subject. This is not what the thread was all about.

Originally Posted by sen2009

I have not ever read a newspaper report where someone suffered a similar fate in Delhi because of biker gangs blocking roads.

Can be my ignorance, and I don't live in Delhi - so I wouldn't know for sure.

But, still - I have heard about almost all other bad things happening in Delhi.

Can someone post a reference where such an incident was reported.

[adroit]

• The incident happened at VVIP area where I have never seen the availability of the stones at all.
• Its hard to believe that they were only 3 police man to control so called bikers. To best of my knowledge, this area is full of police people 24x7… all the so called important politicians stay in that area.
• Look at all the pictures displaying the stones at the crime scene. It looks like that someone has dumped the stones at the place.
• We all know that how these stunt bikers behave on streets but don’t we all know how good police we have in our country ?
• Kindly help me understand that why there was not even a single arrest even till now? Don’t the so called efficient police party has noticed any bike registration number ?
• Some are saying that the guy has not even informed about slipping away from home at midnight… well that has nothing to judge him as criminal.
• Some are saying that the Police was aiming the bike tyre and it’s a mistake that the boy was shot in back. What if some innocent was passing by would have been killed by these untrained shooters ?
• I am failed to understand that if there were 3 policeman against 30 bikers who were pelting stones at them… how the hell did they get time to aim the tyre ?

[Diesel_convert]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Let us not forget if it were the US police would have fired to kill much earlier.

That's one of the reasons I don't live in the USA,

Crazy trigger happy war mongering nation.

The USA is the lowest standard in the world we can aim for.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by Diesel_convert

That's one of the reasons I don't live in the USA,

Crazy trigger happy war mongering nation.

The USA is the lowest standard in the world we can aim for.

I have seen some real wild police chases on youtube, and firing at a fleeing suspect was usually the last resort, and happened only when the driver had a weapon, or was a suspect in an armed robbery.
Its a common guideline, even in USA to use firearm discharge as the last resort. Many policemen in countries like UK don't even carry weapons.

3 policemen to control a mob is a recipe for disaster.
I think the problem likes with the adminstration attitude towards mob.
Any mob is considered to be a vote bank, and therefore mobs are usually allowed to do anything they want.

Go break into a store. You will be arrested. Go as a mob, police will watch. This is what they are taught.

Biker gangs performing stunts has been happening for a long time. If I stop my car for one minute in that area, some cop will come to challan me, how come they never came out as a group force and arrested such violent bikers.

You can do an experiment. Gather 50 friends, and put on some political party/religious/organization dress. You will be allowed to do whatever you want. Unless the adminstration starts treating criminals like criminals such idiotic shootings will happen.

Its not difficult to nip this problem in the bud. All you need is a few major arrests, and these gangs will disintegrate. But the police DNA and mindset is "do not touch mobs".

So you have Kanwars running amok, protestors running amok, bikers running amok, religious types running amok.
All that is needed is a few riot control vans. These riot control vans always materialize when citizens are protesting things. However, whenever there is actual need, they vanish.
The police force was created for citizens, not a VIP protection force which has become.

Thanks to VIP and VVIP culture what we have on street are untrained, underpaid, overworked policemen, who are slightly better than the criminals they claim to hunt. I drive the streets at night, and I see majority of then stopping trucks to make a quick buck. Actual enforcement, what is called law enforcement is absent.

So as a citizen I can never trust police version of the story. Any such incident will make me believe its a trigger happy policeman.

Any kind of gang activity can be controlled if there is will. And here these are not rifle carrying armed gangs(like the badlands of UP). These are just rowdy types on bikes belonging to ordinary families. put even 10% of them in Jail, and problem goes away.

But the police is choosing the easy way out. There are no shortcuts or easy ways out on law enforcement. You have to work hard, something the police is either unwilling or not capable off.