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![]() | #76 | |||||
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Delhi-NCR
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| re: The Cryptocurrency & NFT Thread I have largely shied away from writing on this thread, except once, as I am no expert on crypto-currencies or their relatives. The correct nomenclature, in my humble opinion, ought to be online virtual trading in pieces of complex software algorithms. What I mean is that my body of knowledge and this items history of trading have both not reached a critical mass for me to say time to invest and diversify the risk a little. In my time between my professional and personal life I have invested in or bought positions in Indian shares, American shares, FX derivatives, interest swaps, gold and real estate. I know enough to be dangerous but I cannot understand this new commodity and its intrinsic useful economic value. What I do know is that every so many years a new bubble emerges to fuel the human need for wealth creation the lazy way - the stock market boom in India in 1980s, the Japanese real estate bubble circa 1990, the dotcom bubble of late 1990s, the mortgage bubble of USA that collapsed in 2008 and so on. The medium of trade changes but the over riding urge to get rich quick is the same. Interestingly exactly the same pattern repeats itself - folks who've got little investment experience start putting their money, folks with 5 trades behind them become the experts, guys start borrowing money (eeks!!) to invest in the new toy, grand mothers who cannot spell R-I-S-K start talking about it and everyone believes there is at least one bigger sucker who'll buy at a higher price. I realize I am offending those who have invested and apologize for my candour. Please read on. In the wake of easy wealth will follow two things as sure as death and taxes - (1) The Governments will individually and collectively come after it (2) the crooks will get hold of it (have already done ) (3) frauds will emerge - fake bitcoins, fake transactions et al. Forgery is around the corner. Quote:
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Yup. Cannot say it better. Quote:
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My 90- year old pa-in-law asked me about bitcoins three weeks ago. He loves trading in stocks - it helps him keep active. He asked, "V____ji yeh Crypto kaunsi country hai. Uskee currency mein bahut value hai" [V____ which is this country called Crypto. Its currency seems to have a lot of value] He insisted I should help him trade in Crypto's currency!! I fobbed him off by saying RBI has banned it. Guys its time to sell! Quote:
Last edited by V.Narayan : 4th December 2017 at 18:40. | |||||
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![]() | #77 |
Team-BHP Support ![]() ![]() Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Bangalore
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| re: The Cryptocurrency & NFT Thread Some of my colleagues have caught the bug too. Same investor profile, if you can call them such. Know nothing about economics, no willingness to research, working mostly off Bitcoin bro-science (the one know-all 'expert' colleague), some even taking loans to fuel the craze. They're all convinced they'll make millions and exit before the bubble pops. I shake my head and move on. (Easy) money is the worst addiction. Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 4th December 2017 at 19:07. |
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![]() | #78 | |
BHPian | re: The Cryptocurrency & NFT Thread Quote:
The problem I see that complete spectrum of tech savvy people are falling in the love of crypto. And there is considerable amount of people who are into the gamble. There are so many videos and explanation about why this is future. Even financial portals treat it as the one of trading commodity. You see news, posts and all sort of resources everywhere. This all collectively says this is not a scam, nobody questions it. And this convinces people to be a part of ship. Infact this not a scam, but definitely this is completely illogical. The thing is creating wealth out of thin air by selling idea that it is the future. But I see counter argument is not holding ground much. I see people who has counter argument has to step back from the argument. People believe in idea of bit coin so much that I see that these people considers others as a foolish people. I am wondering how the whole world is going mad at the same time? aren't there counter argument which has been holding ground? Last edited by sushantr5 : 4th December 2017 at 20:05. | |
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Team-BHP Support ![]() ![]() | re: The Cryptocurrency & NFT Thread For those who are contemplating selling their house or pledging their wife's jewellery to invest in cryptocurrencies, here is a cheat sheet /guide - ![]() |
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![]() | #80 | |
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Delhi-NCR
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| re: The Cryptocurrency & NFT Thread Quote:
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![]() | #81 | |
BHPian ![]() Join Date: May 2010 Location: .........
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| re: The Cryptocurrency & NFT Thread Quote:
A lot of people compared this rise in value (I'm not saying price-value is the right term) to the Tulip mania in 17th century Europe. The problem is that the Tulip story is false. It was created by religious zealots to restrain the free markets. It was a propaganda. You can read the Smithsonian article that talks about it here. Secondly, the original intention of creating a cryptocurrency was to bypass the banks. Paypal is today a payment gateway. Their original vision was to digitize currency. There was another currency before that which tried to do the same, but they did not pick up. Security and awareness were the adoption barriers. The creators of Bitcoin solved the challenges that made duplication impossible. That's what makes it so powerful- it is distributed across half a million computers and not one can control it. Yes, each token is is just a piece of code. But what about the money we use everyday? Even that's a piece of code. Money is electronic. If you would like to know about the history of Bitcoin, this is a book I highly recommend. You may dislike it as an investment option, but understanding the context, history and potential is important for something so disruptive. Bitcoin is the only form of currency that cannot be duplicated, manipulated or destroyed. That's why so many people are trusting it as a means to store their wealth. Thirdly, anyone who read the Panama papers or wikileaks articles would be able to appreciate the extent of money laundering that is done by banks. They use sophisticated names for the transactions, but in essence they're laundering money. You don't need bitcoins to launder money. In fact, Bitcoin transactions are highly traceable. You can go to blockchain.info and type in any bitcoin wallet address, and it will show you what transactions took place for that account. No bank can afford that transparency. Swiss banks are so famous because they are unrelenting when it comes to disclosing details of their customers. Finally, someone mentioned that bitcoins are not adding any value to the economy. That's also a false statement. There are billions of dollars worth of computers mining coins at any moment. Hundreds of thousands of people are involved in manufacturing them. Thousands are employed at exchanges. I personally believe that there's a lot that needs to be done to reform banking institutions. They control the economy and have been reckless in the past. They walk away with fat bonuses, add little value to the economy and continue getting bailed out for bad lending bets. I'm willing to invest in the future of money- even if it has a low chance of success. If people did not invest in the internet in the 1990s, we would not be typing this today. Let's try to understand what cryptocurrencies are, what they stand for, why they're so incredibly volatile at the moment and what the future of finance could look like, if we're willing to believe. | |
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![]() | #82 |
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Delhi-NCR
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| re: The Cryptocurrency & NFT Thread
To each his own. You are right in your own way and I am right in mine. A purely digital currency will come one day that is governed by legitimate Governments and regulated possibly by an international reserve bank. When that happens and the history of trading is long enough to determine some trend and my knowledge of its risk characteristics reaches critical mass and tax laws on gains are established then the likes of me may invest. Till then I am happy to watch from the sidelines. |
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Team-BHP Support ![]() ![]() | re: The Cryptocurrency & NFT Thread Quote:
The biggest issue with current drama is - although individual cryptocurrencies (eg: bitcoin) are limited in supply, there is no shortage of sheer number of cryptocurrencies (above 1000) https://coinmarketcap.com/all/views/all/ Compared to this - there are only 150 fiat currencies and only one gold/silver. There is no value in cryptocurrencies because you can theoretically have infinite number of different cryptocurrencies. You, me, Rehaan and Samurai can "start" our own cryptocurrency for that matter. Let me see if BHPcoin.com domain name is available | |
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![]() | #84 | |
BHPian Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Bangalore
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| re: The Cryptocurrency & NFT Thread Quote:
For those who believe in the brilliance of the idea of this whole thing, you must think again. The brilliance in the whole thing is Block chain. Which can bring about a whole lot of security and transparency issues to rest. You may want to applaud the block chain concept and the idea of public ledgering. A currency created out of it is just a plain ponzi scheme, with better technology behind it. | |
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![]() | #85 |
Team-BHP Support ![]() ![]() Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Bangalore
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| re: The Cryptocurrency & NFT Thread I'm definitely not a fan (yet), and to me the whole pro-crypto currency argument seems to be: Today's government-backed and regulated currencies lack accountability (because <reasons>), so the future currency is/should be one backed by nobody, regulated by nobody, based on intangibles and ergo, zero accountability by definition. If I've got it upside down, I'm always open to changing my mind. ![]() |
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![]() | #86 | |
BHPian ![]() Join Date: May 2010 Location: .........
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| re: The Cryptocurrency & NFT Thread Quote:
![]() Also, I saw a post claiming that anyone can create a cryptocurrency. That's true, and that's why China banned ICOs. ICOs are a fraud. Bitcoin-not so much. That's perhaps why it will soon be traded on Wall St. | |
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Team-BHP Support ![]() ![]() | re: The Cryptocurrency & NFT Thread Quote:
Don't explain the technology to me, I understand it pretty well. Explain the economics to me. Last time I checked, 70% of the bitcoin mining happens in China. So when you buy bitcoins, you are helping chinese economy, not ours. That is one of the biggest problem with globalization, not just bitcoins. The economy doesn't remain local. The money goes where the labour is the cheapest. Indian IT revolution happened because we had a huge supply of english speaking engineers. China became world's manufacturing hub because they make it at the cheapest cost. Since 70% of the miners are in China, it does give the dictatorial Chinese government the ability to manipulate blockchains. As you know majority wins while validating the transactions. ![]() The biggest problem with bitcoins is it tried to solve an economics problem using technology. Blockchain is great technology. I love it. It has amazing amount of applications in all kinds of book/record keeping. It can stop problems of forgery everywhere for good. But as crypto-currency it poses more problems than it solves. 1) It was supposed to be a transaction currency, instead became a traded commodity. Instead of controlling the inflation, it is creating it. 2) It was supposed to remove the middlemen like central banks. But the governments all around don't want to get out of the way and lose all sales tax revenue. 3) It was supposed to put at end to quantitative easing. But why? If you take away the government's power to control money supply, then government can't control the economy at all. The power will shift to corporations that don't have to answer to the citizens. Economic solutions must come from economists, and not techno-nerds who only understand numbers. I have mentioned this earlier in the bottom part of this post. | |
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Senior - BHPian ![]() | re: The Cryptocurrency & NFT Thread Just cross posting myself from a different thread where the Q was raised. Nothing more to add. Quote:
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![]() | #89 |
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Delhi-NCR
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| re: The Cryptocurrency & NFT Thread Making laws & enforcing them; forming an armed defense force & using it to protect the realm; issuing currency that forms the medium of economic exchange and storage value; lawfully detaining or killing people; nominating an ambassador to another nation; levying and collecting taxes and a few more are the exclusive preserve of a Government. It is what democracies fight elections over and dictators fight civil wars over. You tread into the preserve of the Govt regardless of technology sooner or later they will reclaim their territory and rightfully so. It is the foundation of civil society. Today bitcoin is popular because a few have made some money, many have claimed to have made a lot of money and a whole lot more expect and pray that they will benefit from this bandwagon. What if tomorrow the tech-nerds in China decide to take over another Govt function and levy a Bit-Tax!! No more arguments from my side. Lets re-visit this space in 15 months - March 2019. I await the first Crypto-Forgery and the first Crypto-Hack (Bitcoin equivalent of a bank theft). Till then long live the NSE. |
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The following BHPian Thanks V.Narayan for this useful post: | vamsi.kona |
![]() | #90 | |
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| re: The Cryptocurrency & NFT Thread Quote:
The total worth of gold globally is $1.9 trillion. That's almost as high as India's GDP. Is gold creating the same amount of societal value as a nation of a billion people? I'm not sure. You may say that people use gold to store their savings. Well, many of them are using Bitcoin to do that. Economics is not a subject that I can claim to be an expert in. All I can say is that I've read a bit about it in my undergraduate years and during my MBA. Based on the little knowledge that I have, it seems a bit presumptuous to claim that people who're behind bitcoins did not know what they were doing. Something that grows so fast (and becomes mainstream so quickly) must have something going for it, and I guess the Wall Street investors won't be bothered to look at it if it were a fraud. Also, everything that contains a chip is usually made in China these days. Bitcoin is not an exception, and the companies like AMD, BITMAIN and Micron that specialize in mining hardware are international in nature. If we're comfortable typing on a Lenovo laptop that's made and designed in China, or using an IPhone that's made by Foxconn in China in a factory paying minimum wages, there should be no discomfort when it comes to mining hardware. In fact, it's creating an asset that's valued globally (at least now), so it's good for a country's economy if a $5000 miner can create bitcoins worth $20,000 over it's lifetime. If we start talking about possibilities for manipulation by Governments, it's a debate that would be completely ![]() | |
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