[giri1.8]

Spent some time looking at mining videos, I would surely invest small amount of money directly on bitcoin rather than investing so much on hardware, only to get minimum profit with uncertain ROI!

For people with lot of hardware(GPU's, no other part matters) this could generate decent side income!If you are going ahead with a brand new setup, do keep in mind that GPU's would be super expensive.

very rough calculation(less than half a day worth of research) points to figure around 80K, which would yield around 2$ a day without cost of power being considered!

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by digitalnirvana

@alpha1 and investors who are well versed with cryptocurrency one question, when I started thinking of investing 1 bitcoin was 2.8L and by the time I overcame my apprehensions and completed KYC it is 8.5L. I literally saw it go out of my reach in mere months. Is this a good time then to invest at such high levels? If so, what should be an investment strategy?

Trading, you should mean.
Approach it like a trader and you will be much safer.
Approach it like an investor and you may lose everything.

Originally Posted by smartcat

After all, you earn in Rupees and do most of your spending in Rupees.

You are assuming that because TODAY I am being paid in Rupees.
Say tomorrow, I am being paid in bitcoins. And there is a parallel economy running on bitcoins?

To simplify: I run an online shop. I accept bitcoin payments.
I source everything online from merchants that use bitcoins.
Why do I need Rupees to conduct any kind of business?

In fact if food etc is available to me via Bitcoins - why would anyone really require Rupees?

Originally Posted by Samurai

Are you suggesting none of us should pay sales tax or GST? Why will the government not step in?

I am not suggesting that But the govt will not be able to control it.
Just thinking about the scenario I painted above - I am convinced that most of the Govts will outlaw the cryptocurrencies sooner or later.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by alpha1

You are assuming that because TODAY I am being paid in Rupees.
Say tomorrow, I am being paid in bitcoins. And there is a parallel economy running on bitcoins?

To simplify: I run an online shop. I accept bitcoin payments.
I source everything online from merchants that use bitcoins.
Why do I need Rupees to conduct any kind of business?

In fact if food etc is available to me via Bitcoins - why would anyone really require Rupees?

If bitcoin is stable against fiat currencies, then what you say is feasible - that is, bitcoin value should change at an avg rate of plus or minus 5% per year against fiat currencies. But if bitcoins continue to going up like a rocket all the time, why would any sane person pay you in something as 'valuable' as bitcoin?

Eg: Let's say you develop an app for a client and you charge 0.25 bitcoins (worth Rs. 2 Lakhs now). Why would the client pay you in BTC if he knows that the same bitcoin will be worth Rs. 3 Lakhs by the end of the year?

There is something called GRESHAM's LAW - "bad money" (INR) drives out the "good" (BTC) from circulation. That is, bitcoins will become so 'valuable' that it will be hoarded (and not spent) by majority hoping for higher and higher prices.

It will never be used as a currency, as you envisage, if bitcoin continues to behave like this price wise.

[blackwasp]

Some perspective from a former bitcoin miner.

Back in 2013-2014, I had employed a couple of home PCs, Raspberry Pis to mine bitcoins. Progress was decent upto late 2013. In early 2014, I managed to access around 400-500 PC's networked together to mine coins. This endaevour could run only about 8-12 hrs a day, but did net me decent returns. In late 2014, when the bitcoin went to $1050 (from $100 to $1000 in couple of months or less), I offloaded all I had. I need not mention the value of those today.

But do I regret selling? Absolutely not. I could amass that much for almost nil cost to me. But for a college student, redeeming came in handy for expenses and others. I did think about continuing to mine after 2015, but then it was not really viable from all the existing hardware lying home.

Bitcoin has a good future. As a currency, it is free from all the hassles of conversion, taxes etc. (Governments will soon find ways to keep an eye on these currencies), but as an investment avenue, it needs to be treaded very very carefully. It is equivalent to trading / investing in forex instruments. There is money to be made, but be prepared for falls as well.

For me, bitcoin is no longer a way of investment. For me, as long as mining was viable, it was ok. But from now on, I treat it like holding my excess cash for a rainy day. Not being in the purview of any governments, I am hoping it will be tax free say, 10-15 years down the line. One day, I hope to see bitcoins and similar crypto currencies get accepted as regular currencies.

And thanks to bitcoins, we have found out many uses for blockchains. The applications for these are varied and most are used for good things now. Some of the uses of blockchain that I found interesting -
1. This year, UN sent Syrian refugees crypto currency based vouchers
2. Blockchain can act as a bank-like institution for people without bank accounts - helping people get into saving, and other benefits
3. Tamper-proof voting systems for elections, etc.
4. MedRec - medical records based on blockchain (MIT Labs)

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by smartcat

It will never be used as a currency, as you envisage, if bitcoin continues to behave like this price wise.

Agreed, but the price is building up because more and more people are getting into it. The prices have to stabilize by a series of booms and busts.

I am reminded of a great graphic (attached image) ...

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

John Rockefeller sold off his speculative positions before the 1929 stock market crash in USA (that triggered the great depression). Someone asked him how he got the wind of the crash. Rockefeller said he was guided by the shoe shine boy down the street. The world's first billionaire, said that the day the shoe shine boy on Wall Street started talking of investing in stocks he knew it was time to sell.

And this is the essence of riding the wave. If everyone around you starts talking about the bitcoin - it means most of the "greater fools" have already been found ... and soon we will run out of more of them - causing a bust.
(Mania Phase in the graph)

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by alpha1

I am reminded of a great graphic

Majority will get in at 'greed-delusion' levels and get out at 'despair' levels.

[joe1980]

Interestingly the country with the highest number of miners (China - Roughly 81% of overall Bitcoin mining) recently banned all ICO's. As an another setback, I came across a news article here in the UK where Bitcoin ATM's are being increasingly used to siphon off money made from selling drugs:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-50-notes.html

I'm getting convinced that regulations might step in and bring some sort of governance. Imagine if a country like the UK just ban the use of Bitcoin as a payment method? What will one do then with the Bitcoin's that he or she has?

[ashokrajagopal]

Every sovereign country has only one medium of exchange officially. That country's currency. All other barter stuff including IOUs and Gold is legally banned in most countries. Think of some vendors accepting bitcoins in the same line as accepting coupon codes and such stuff. It can never been booked as mediums of exchange unless the government approves it to be.
Why would any government approve it ever ? This has been discussed many times in this thread itself, but I think the advocates for bitcoin are hung up on the honesty and transparency of the block chain system. This is a lack of understanding of economics I feel. A given country's economic activity can and should be controlled only by currency set by the government. Setting anything else as a standard for currency will only mean that you are going in for a stagnation of economic activity in future, and there are historical examples for it all thru. Right now, it is going in as a medium of hoarding.

[digitalnirvana]

Originally Posted by alpha1

Trading, you should mean.
Approach it like a trader and you will be much safer.
Approach it like an investor and you may lose everything.

Please would you clarify, by investing I meant holding for a long term at least 1-2 years, what do you mean by trading

[ragh_bhushan]

Good to see active discussions on Team-BHP about blockchain / bitcoin. I will share my story and what my vision is.

I first read about Bitcoin in 2013. Found it very interesting and then forgot about it. I did not put my money into it as I did not have much that I could just put and forget. Moreover, I was working on my startup which consumed most of my resources including time, money and efforts.

Flash-forward to 2017, Bitcoin started to create buzz in the media. I started reading about the technology and got consumed by the developments that had taken place in the past 4 years. The ideas that were once only dreamt were starting to look reality. Luckily now I did have some funds which I could kiss goodbye to and that I have put but only in Bitcoin.

People who think that this is a bubble compare it to dot com bubble which was almost 2 decades ago and had hit more than 2.5 Trillion USD market cap before going bust. So best guess for Bitcoin bubble to burst would be at least 6-8 Trillion dollars in today's value. Bitcoin directly impacts money so one may argue that it has to be much bigger bubble than dot com. I know I may sound crazy but the bubble may not pop until we hit 10-15 trillion market cap. Remember dot com still is the biggest technological revolution mankind has ever seen. The bubble has popped and the value is still very much there.

Bitcoin has potential to dwarf dot com when its all said and done because the technological impact to the world from bitcoin dwarfs anything we've seen in the last 4-5 centuries. What we are witnessing is the "S" curve of mass adoption. Is the greed in play? No doubt about it but that does not mean the foundation of Bitcoin is weak.

I am no economics guru but is there a chance that rules of economics themselves are being re-written here?

What if this isn't a bubble? Right now it seems to be an incredible store of value and that is the only use case as of now. What if Bitcoin does become the global currency and delivers everything that it promises to deliver? What if the central banks, retail banks do become obsolete?

What if the governments and nations that we think of in the traditional sense becomes obsolete? History is witness that only thing constant is "Change" and we haven't changed how we create our governments and monetary system for centuries.

I think Bitcoin has shown us a path and blockchain is the way it can be achieved. Will it happen or not? I don't know but I certainly hope so!

[vinit.merchant]

Originally Posted by ragh_bhushan

What if this isn't a bubble?

It may turn out that it is not a bubble eventually, but for that to happen, it will have to be governed. But that will defeat the very purpose of its creation.

What if Bitcoin does become the global currency and delivers everything that it promises to deliver? What if the central banks, retail banks do become obsolete?

If and when it does happen, say goodbye to paying taxes, at least the direct taxes part initially. Later on, ways will be found to evade indirect taxes. Eventually, people will just use cryptos and bypass all taxes. This would also mean there will be no control over the quality of output

What happens then?
Just like the crypto currency, the nation will be left ungoverned & unregulated, because government needs to pay for the public services like Police, roads (howsoever shape they are in now, at least there are roads), water, electricity supply, courts etc etc. No money, no government. And no, if one has chosen to bypass paying taxes, do not expect him/her to pay for the roads, water, etc, because as I said, it defeats the basic purpose of using bitcoins.

In a governed state, humans (more so Asians) tend to show disregard to civic sense. You do not even want to think what this creature can do in an ungoverned state. Who's going to control the crimes, disputes, etc?

What if the governments and nations that we think of in the traditional sense becomes obsolete?

Then my dear friend, lets just say the worst would have come true.

Will it happen or not? I don't know but I certainly hope so!

EDIT: As of now, there are only two purposes of using bitcoins
1. Transacting in illegal activities and/or evading taxes
2. Speculation

Am I missing any other purpose, which seems important and our traditional currency is unable to meet?

[sindabad.sailor]

I was doing some outward remittance today when the bank webpage popped up a screen to declare that the transaction is not contravening FEMA rules. With time at hand, went through each small /fineprint of T&C. One if it was a declaration that I am not doing this to procure any virtual currency / Bitcoin.

Wondering what is legality of holding it in cloud somewhere as per Law of India.

I am getting interested in the concept a lot nowdays. Keep wondering why the virtual thing can't be so called massproduced instead of making it look like a finite stock so that valuations can practically rise without any ceiling.

[Nissan1180]

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

Am I missing any other purpose, which seems important and our traditional currency is unable to meet?

Bitcoin is a legal tender in Japan. You can go to a restaurant and pay for your meal using a bitcoin debit card.

Very recently, there were a few houses sold for bitcoins instead of cash. Microsoft accepts bitcoins. I have seen certain consulting services accept bitcoins as well. The Silk Road days are over. As I mentioned earlier on this thread, all bitcoin transactions can be traced by anyone if you have the wallet id. I am not sure if bitcoin will crash to 0 ever, but it is a real way to transact. It is not like monopoly money as many who are not aware of the developments make it out to be. Also, tax evasion is not a short term possibility because bitcoin may be subjected to capital gains tax in India.

Also, it is better to buy a hardware wallet like the Trezor or Ledger Nano S to store cryptos. Exchanges and virtual wallets may shut down or get hacked or get banned, but a hardware wallet will be secure forever. Bitcoin is essentially a piece of code, and holding it is not illegal in India.

[vinit.merchant]

Originally Posted by Nissan1180

Bitcoin is a legal tender in Japan. You can go to a restaurant and pay for your meal using a bitcoin debit card.

Very recently, there were a few houses sold for bitcoins instead of cash. Microsoft accepts bitcoins. I have seen certain consulting services accept bitcoins as well. The Silk Road days are over. As I mentioned earlier on this thread, all bitcoin transactions can be traced by anyone if you have the wallet id. I am not sure if bitcoin will crash ever, but it is a real way to transact. It is not like monopoly money as many who are not aware of the developments make it out to be. Also, tax evasion is not a short term possibility because bitcoin may be subjected to capital gains tax in India.

So what advantages does it provide to traditional currency that we currently use. Infact, the value of the bitcoin is arrived at in traditional currency. If there was to be no traditional currency, how can we arrive at its value in future ?

Also there can be multiple cryptos in future. So then there will be an exchange with values for each?
At present, in India, if I have rupees in my account, I am sure it will be accepted everywhere. What about cryptos? One fine day, I may be told "sorry we have stopped accepting bitcoins now, we will accept xxxxx crypto"

And what about those 75% of the population who doesn't use digital currency, are not literate enough? Or do we expect everyone to be tech savy and go 100% digital? Pay the maid in bitcoin, vegetable vendor in bitcoin, etc. They could hardly scrape through the demonitization, but we expect them to completely understand cryptos?

[turbodude]

From mid November, most of my office colleagues have started talking about Bitcoin.

Just a week back it was hovering near $10,000 and today it has crossed $14,000 mark.

A bad news for some people, nicehash wallet was hacked and many Bitcoins stolen. Here is the CNET news report that confirms it:
https://www.cnet.com/news/bitcoin-ex...ns-to-hackers/

Our office group had just opened up a wallet on nicehash and trying to mine using different miner apps/programs. Some enthusiasts also talked about purchasing an antminer S9 to mine the cryptocurrencies. Good that we didn't have any balance in the wallet. We still cried that we lost our 0.00000000 BTC (8 zeroes ) balance.

Talking about India, the finance minister already said that bitcoin is not a legal tender in India and RBI has already cautioned everyone about bitcoin.

Overall another interesting topic trending on internet. I am thoroughly enjoying it .