[sukhoi30]

The real fun will begin in the last week of December. That is when, most or all avenues of exchange, methods to convert etc will be exhausted. Then people who were not able to dispose off their loot will either come out in open or will be seen dumping their wealth 'voluntarily' . These politicians and their ilk are doing everything they can to minimize such people's 'problems'.

[lHarpreetl]

In another move to lower the pressure now you can Select petrol pumps to dispense cash up to Rs 2,000 from today
http://toi.in/SAVd8a/a19ei

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Are you aware that any payment in excess of 20k (or is it 50k) has been illegal for ages. So you knowingly entered into a black market transaction

Stopped by after 24 hours to see what is happening, and chanced upon this.

Since I am always keen to fill in the gaps in what I know - under which law has it been illegal for ages? As a one time tax lawyer, all I remember on this is that any expenditure in cash above a certain limit - and that was Rs 2500 when this section was introduced in the Income Tax Act, I have lost track of what it is now - could not be claimed as a deduction in the computation of taxable income. So all it meant was a commercial implication that such an expense for a businessman or a company would incur a tax liability - no other penalty. Also, for salaried people, it was irrelevant, because they don't claim any deductions in the first place, so a salaryman getting his house painted by paying the painter any amount of taxed income in cash, is breaking no law that I know of. If I am wrong, please correct me by letting me know the law you are referring to - I fear that this may just be a liberal use of the word "illegal", something that is becoming all too common these days. Of course, there may be such a law, and if so, I am honestly open to being taught about it.

Originally Posted by JayPrashanth

This demonetisation exercise is turning into a farce. The right hand doesn't seem to know what the left's doing. There are bribes being given in crisp 2K notes. One minister even said that it was the RBI's move, nearly absolving the government of its responsibilities. Funny that most of us are praising it. If anything, it's causing a loss in productivity everywhere, and the poor are getting hit the hardest as their coping mechanisms to massive change is the least.

The latest word: It could take up to 6 months before normalcy is restored. I'm not surprised considering that the RBI presses were initially asked to prepare for currency withdrawal on the midnight of 31st December 2016. The decision was advanced by 50 days for god knows what. Now, we're in a situation where the RBI press is unable to service demand, and the powers that be are running like headless chicken, invoking nationalism and all kinds of rubbish. What a crying shame that we have a spineless opposition. A classic case of getting caught between a rock and a hard place.

I commend you for the spirit in which this post is written, bravo! I may not agree with all your points, but I will certainly not say that by making them you are in league with black money people, or have it yourself, or are dishonest, or are anti national and don't have a right to stay in India.

It is depressing to see such a strong tendency to do this everywhere these days; and I stopped posting here because those whose minds are made up aren't open to more input and the forum structure is such that one ends up repeating the same thing over and over. But I thought I needed to react as I have to the two quoted posts.

PS: in response the first quote, I just remembered: The IT act also had a section that any deposit of over Rs 10000 received in cash would be treated as income - and not as a balance sheet item. Again, this meant just that; accepting any amount in cash, showing it as income, and paying tax on the net income after claiming admissible deductions was - and still is - perfectly legal. Again, if I am wrong, please quote the relevant Act or rule under any Act that makes it illegal to do so.

Let me share my post-demonetization experience in my first post in this hot thread. Day-before-yesterday evening, I and my wife visited Pondy Bazaar, a busy shopping area in T Nagar, Chennai, which we normally visit regularly for shopping and dining. While riding on my bike my first observation was the traffic volume was almost half compared to the normal evening peak hour traffic. My second observation was I could easily find a vacant spot for parking my bike in front of the shop itself! It is needless to say that the market was less-crowded. The first shop we visited was totally deserted. So was the second. My wife bought some stainless steel vessels from a very famous shop in the market. Even that too had very few customers. The last, but not the least, we visited Hotel Balajee Bhavan after our shopping. The normally crowded restaurant had an occupancy of less than 50%. There were more empty chairs than the occupied ones! Of course, I paid by my credit card in all my transactions for sums as small as ₹ 80.

A few days before this demonetization was announced, I had 100 x ₹ 500 notes with me, which were given to me by my relative in cash towards repayment of a loan. A couple of days later, I deposited half of the notes with Axis Bank, R K salai, Chennai Main in my account, which was a 10-minute job. But, withdrawing ₹ 6,000 from my account took more than an hour. The queue was big and many people jumped into the queue resulting in shouting and counter-shouting. I got 3 x ₹ 2,000 notes only as other denomination notes were not available. I later visited State Bank of India [sbi], Royapettah, where the token system ensured orderliness. Here, I could easily deposit the remaining half of the notes - well, almost - using the cash deposit machine [cdm]. But, two notes got rejected by cdm due to some scribbling on them, which I deposited in my account over the counter, when my turn came. I wanted ₹ 100 notes very badly, which were not available even in sbi. I visited the nearby sbi atm day-before-yesterday and withdrew ₹ 3,000 from my two accounts using my debit cards. I got all ₹ 100 notes, luckily! So, no worries for a few weeks!

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by JayPrashanth

This demonetisation exercise is turning into a farce. The right hand doesn't seem to know what the left's doing. There are bribes being given in crisp 2K notes. One minister even said that it was the RBI's move, nearly absolving the government of its responsibilities. Funny that most of us are praising it. If anything, it's causing a loss in productivity everywhere, and the poor are getting hit the hardest as their coping mechanisms to massive change is the least.

Please try and work out how much money is involved in the bribes (though it should ideally be zero). Maybe a crore, not even small change when compared with the 4 lakh crores deposited.

Originally Posted by sukhoi30

That's how...
Did use of indelible ink reduce queues at banks? Yes, say TOI readers

The bank employees unions, all CPM/CPI, of course, claim it has not helped. I heard rumours that unions are out to sabotage, and this proves it.

Originally Posted by prasadee

Speaking from a really small sample set of these 2 migrant workers, it has been impossible for them to get a Bank account, or a ration card for 3 years now.

We have four maids working for us. None has complained. When discussing with friends I think we covered at least 20 domestics. One chaps maid complained about cash, he happens to be a retired bank manager, so got the money changed, through his account. All have JanDhan (or other) accounts. They have all gone and put their large denomination money (from 3000 to 72,000) into the banks. Today Jan Dhan covers more than 28 crores (i.e one in five) and considering the average family size (rememmer poorer families are bigger) it adds up to almost all the population. Also, I think all have been given RuPay cards, If they have an account anywhere then with National Banking they are covered. Also, I am hearing a lot of noise about Cooperative Banks, they are almost all politico controlled, most use manual procedures, and will become money laundering centres, (like Private Nursing Homes).

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Of course the choice is mine as is the evaluation of the risk. And I see no reason at all to backdate the transaction as you are suggesting, I am very comfortable in not doing so. Honest people can remain honest and have nothing to fear. As has always been the case.

If you accept 500s, 1000s after Nov 8th, you are helping someone to convert their black loot into white.

Originally Posted by lHarpreetl

In another move to lower the pressure now you can Select petrol pumps to dispense cash up to Rs 2,000 from today
http://toi.in/SAVd8a/a19ei

Petrol Bunks are unable to give change for 500s, 1000s. How are they going to dispense 100s now? Are banks giving them cash? In that case, banks are advised to fill their ATMs. I still see most ATMs running dry.

Originally Posted by msdivy

Otherwise, the game will start with Rs 2000 notes.

The game has indeed begun -
* Gujarat: Govt staff caught taking Rs 4 lakh bribe in new Rs 2,000 notes
* Rs 2,000 notes used for bribe trap, 3 held

Mind you these are cases that have come out in the open. With a weekly limit of 25K, how did they get 4L? Earlier it required 2 bundles, now it is just single bundle for 2L
(without new legislation, without any change, after system reset, old problems will surface again )

Originally Posted by srishiva

I need to pay my plumber 2 lakhs for the work he will do and needless to say it needs to be cash. What is the solution ? Shouldn't we had found solution for such issues before doing something like this ?

If people had been given sufficient notice that they cannot transact with cash after X date, they would have indeed adopted non-cash methods. Now people without cards, online banking facilities are cut off from the economy. It is those folks who are standing on the queue every morning, before work and evening after work to get hold of some cash. This is where the current government has betrayed its people. Collateral damage is huge.

[diyguy]

Originally Posted by msdivy

Petrol Bunks are unable to give change for 500s, 1000s. In that case, banks are advised to fill their ATMs.

ATM refilling is done by technical specialists while at bunks it can probably be delivered in a strong box by almost anyone. I suppose this will benefit for sure.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by sukhoi30

That's how...
Did use of indelible ink reduce queues at banks? Yes, say TOI readers

Er, I still dont see where that mentions "the queues have reduced because people who were standing in line for a commission have stopped coming." Queues have reduced, if at all, because inked people know there is no point in standing there.
The queues everywhere, from banks to ATMs, have gone from "Wow, thats a long line" to "What the hell??". It is 9 AM, and I passed 3 ATMs on my drive to work. 100 odd was the minimum number at each.
86% of the cash will be replaced with a little "inconvenience"? No one who has thought of this "brilliant" strike has ever had to queue up. Empathy is non-existent. And as with every other brilliant move any government has ever thought up off, this one is no different in mauling the middle class and the poor.
This has gone from inconvenience to a hassle, and is bound to turn dangerous soon.

[asingh1977]

Basically going forward before taking a service from any one, be it rich or poor: One should explicitly mention the transfer channel. That the payment will happen with cheque, NEFT, DD or some gateway. If cash: the person has to furnish a receipt. Else do not get into such a deal.

*****
Just a rumor mill:
1. Gold purchase will need to be registered - akin to property.
2. A person can only register two properties under their name in one city.
3. A property registry can not have > 2 applicants.

Not sure, if this is true or when it will be implemented. But if they do, they are really tightening the noose. Hard.

[earthian]

Originally Posted by JayPrashanth

This demonetisation exercise is turning into a farce.

It isn't. The desperate black money hoarders, who were responsible for the situation in the first place, along with all of us who are content to do nothing about it, are trying their best to use their ill gotten wealth to make the Government roll back the move. Honest, tax paying citizens, who want a better India, would definitely back this demonetisation move of the Government. What we can and should do is ensure that the sizeable anti social elements ( what else do you call them?) do not succeed in scuttling this, by using that same ill gotten wealth. And some of them have joined hands with the politicians to try and achieve this. The Poor is not inconvenienced. Period. Yes, small and medium businesses who were dependent on the cash customers have been affected. It is unfortunately a price we have to pay for tolerating and accommodating these customers and business associates, who use the same cash to avoid paying excise, sales, service, income and other taxes and levies- resulting in the honest citizen having to pay even more.
Try and support- If you want a stronger and better India.

There are bribes being given in crisp 2K notes.

Old habits die hard. The silver lining here is that the bribe taker was caught! the complainant was the giver. This in itself shows that people want a change from this corruption. And please don't paint a picture as if it is business as usual in the corrupt practices arena. The story which appeared in the news is precisely what it is- One story. Let us not generalise this.

Funny that most of us are praising it.

Pray, why should we not praise this? And we see nothing funny about this. I am 62 and maybe have seen slightly more of the world in which we live along with its dark and bright spots. I may have been disappointed, slightly more that you would have been, when i see the rest of the world marching ahead in certain social and economic fronts. I may have been inconsolable when i see and hear the behaviour of our politicians in the public fora, including in Parliament. ( i use this comparison assuming that you are 30 years old as is mentioned in your profile) BUT yet, i have hope. And aspire to see an India, which is strong in values and ethics, apart from economy. And ready and willing to do my bit, as required.

Cheers,
Jay

Nothing to cheer about yet, Jay. Let us do that when these anti social elements get their just dues.

The black money which may have been disrupted or removed from circulation would be a small fraction (~ 10%) of the black wealth created over decades. The next steps would be to target the 90%. These are in Property (including land), Precious metals and stones, and P notes. A senior officer was sharing that the next step would be to link the Aadhaar card for all transactions. Expect some salvo at property in the next move.

[m8002?]

My understanding that is there is still shortage of 100s even at the banks. The petrol bunks would be collecting 100s (usually) from 2 wheelers. So they can use that to some extent.

Here is a rediff article that talks about migrant laborers from Jharkand in Chennai. All have bank accounts and dont see any issues. The problem is mainly getting change for 2000s which is currently impacting everyone.


http://www.rediff.com/business/repor...t/20161118.htm

[poloman]

Originally Posted by m8002?

The problem is mainly getting change for 2000s which is currently impacting everyone.


http://www.rediff.com/business/repor...t/20161118.htm

I am not getting this point. 100Rs or less notes are not demonetized. 500 and 1000 have gone and replaced by 2000. Agree that there will be some problem in getting change. Is it so severe? How were they previously getting change for 500 and 1000 for nominal purchases. Even before there was difficulty in getting change for 500 and 1000 for nominal purchases like bus ticket and pani puri on road side.

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by poloman

I am not getting this point. 100Rs or less notes are not demonetized. 500 and 1000 have gone and replaced by 2000. Agree that there will be some problem in getting change. Is it so severe? How were they previously getting change for 500 and 1000 for nominal purchases. Even before there was difficulty in getting change for 500 and 1000 for nominal purchases like bus ticket and pani puri on road side.

Even earlier, there was issues for change for 1000. With 2000s coming in and 500/1000s eliminated, it just takes the problem to another level.

Now that ATMs are also dispensing 2000s, everyone seems to have 2000 notes with them. And the easiest way to change it to 100s is shop/fuel for 100Rs and ask for change. If all shoppers do the same, where will the shopkeepers get 100s?

[diyguy]

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/dont-...nistry-1626967

EC has asked government not to use indelible ink

[Samurai]

Today I withdrew 20K from HDFC bank in Bangalore, they gave me 2K in 100 bills and rest in 2K bills. My wait was 20 minutes, only had 6 people in front of me when I joined the queue. I visited the bank 10 minutes after it opened. There was no line outside the bank, which means no TV cameras either.