[Samurai]

Are you all discounting the day-care value of schools?

[ashokrajagopal]

Homeschooling is a nice little way to
a) slowly and steadily get a parent to be chained to teaching the kid, and we all know which parent that's going to be.
b) stop whatever kind of mingling across divisions in society, be it in the basis of religion, caste, financial status, language, ethnicity, etc.
c) pass on all your values -- "good", "bad" or "downright offensive" to your children.

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by aargee

Children are still studying about micro computer while Quantum computers are on the rise. Micro computers from the age of 1st standard until 7th grade!!

You need to learn micro computers to understand Quantum computing or if i understand correctly , you want schools to teach a 7th std student quantum computing directly without basic computing?.

Originally Posted by AMG Power

One reason for this school of thought (pun unintended) by the top could be that they do think that it is those who don't conform who really are the original thinkers (out of the box, thought leadership, whatever) and can contribute to doing business differently.

For every school dropout who made it big ( steve jobs et all ) there would be at least 10 who have followed the school and have also made it big. Whoever said that thought leadership and out of box thinkers are school bunkers.

Originally Posted by AMG Power

I leave you with the lyrics to Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall" . The only number one hit of this hugely popular progressive rock group and is based on Roger Waters' real life experience.

I was just itching to see who makes this reference.

Pink floyd?. A Bunch of pipe hitting hippies who thought non conformance was cool and would make good role models i guess.

[avisidhu]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

....
I find that irrespective of the topic at hand, be it politics or a technical topic, people that want to deep dive and have that ability beyond looking at a Youtube or a google search tend to have the most interesting and well thought through ideas. Not necessarily ones I agree to, but at least well founded in very fundamental understanding of things.

How they acquire such skills/ability is up for debate.
....

Summed up perfectly Jeroen. Problems with schooling don't mean the alternatives would necessarily be better for everyone. Instead, as a parent we should focus on building an attitude of deep curiosity, and equipping our kids with tools and techniques to deep dive into any topic they find interesting.

Many a times, this could entail a change in our lifestyles and habits as parents, since children always learn by observing and never through sermons. And this is what most of us struggle in accepting and implementing.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Are you all discounting the day-care value of schools?

Thanks for the insight in such a pithy statement. Arguably, this might be the single biggest reason schools won't go away!

Apologies for sounding rude, but frankly with time I've increasingly become vary of this whole 'square pegs in round holes' theory which everyone seems to carry like a chip on their shoulder.

Yes, A tiny bit of people truly possess unique abilities and talents and for them, formal education might not have been an optimal choice. But average joes like me far outnumber them, and no matter how boring, dreary or socially challenging those days were, formal schooling was probably a better option than any other. Same holds true for the current gen.

At least when it comes to the "education ruined me" mindset, life would have given most of us a choice to break the shackles at some point or other, but if we went with the flow then we should blame no one but ourselves. The self pity most people carry around to their middle age and beyond through grudges with school college etc., is truly surprising.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by srini1785

You need to learn micro computers to understand Quantum computing or if i understand correctly , you want schools to teach a 7th std student quantum computing directly without basic computing?

Just trying to keep things simple - Don't take that sentence literally. It only means, computer science is only a passing subject & mains until 10th (this was the case from 1987 to 1992 when I was in the same cadre)

Next thing, there's no subject on micro computers or to talk in your terms - micro chip or PCB. There was generation of computers in 2nd grade & 3rd grade, then they had (un)successfully taught about Logo & Turtle (school didn't have the software, they asked the child to inform Parents to download). After that it has all been some junk in terms of input output devices, basically same dough in different vessels. After 5 long years, they're now teaching different parts of Windows Operating system such as start menu, clipboard, blah blah!!

No, I'm not asking for C & C++, atleast MS Word? Excel? PPT?

Hope you got the point

[abhishek46]

My kid was a monkey, before he went to school.
Now, after a couple of years in school, he behaves more or less like a human being.

Hence, in summary, I have been benefited immensely from the School as such.

[AMG Power]

Originally Posted by srini1785

For every school dropout who made it big ( steve jobs et all ) there would be at least 10 who have followed the school and have also made it big. Whoever said that thought leadership and out of box thinkers are school bunkers.

Thanks for teaching me this.

Originally Posted by srini1785

I was just itching to see who makes this reference.

Pink floyd?. A Bunch of pipe hitting hippies who thought non conformance was cool and would make good role models i guess.

Never knew a bunch of hippies could make anyone itch so much. Live and learn.

[luvDriving]

Ahh a subject close to my heart nowadays since my daughter is in the primary section and I am seeing the effects of schooling first hand. For the record, I am all for home schooling just because I believe that everything that a child needs to learn growing up is now available on the many technological devices and also, at the risk of getting brickbats, I believe that the education that kids get in school is all hearsay. That is not to say it is all false but it is the version the way the teacher sees and understands it.

e.g. A teacher in my kid's school is famous for not knowing correct English and she keeps correcting (wrongly) children's notebook homework. Kids will only believe what their teacher tells them in school.

Schools are good for getting social skills like sharing your stuff, responding to negative feedback or arguments, forming friendships, inculcating discipline, working for the common good and all other team activities including sports, drama, music, culture, festivals and the like.

Then there is the immense competition which starts right with the birth of the baby. Parents start collecting 'contacts' to get their child admitted in good schools. The schools also obviously take advantage of this emotion and hike fees / conduct interviews / provide management seats and what not. This competition later on shifts to the child who is burdened with getting 'good' marks throughout his/her schooling.

And finally when one is employed, one realizes that barring for a few people, not a single thing which was learnt in school is required to pursue a successful career. In fact things have to be unlearned and relearned. Let us see what benefitted us from school.

1. Languages : well, learning English did help out in college and later life. Other than that, no other language benefitted me in any large way.
2. Sciences : Nothing that I learnt from Physics, Chemistry or Biology is useful (well, almost nothing :P)
3. History / Geography : Learning everything from the steppes to the tundra, from Shivaji maharaj to Gandhiji, the dates of every major event, boston tea party and all other uprisings - no impact on later life.

Now I am not saying that these things are completely useless. But I object to the manner in which these subjects are rammed down our throat and made to spit out in examinations.

Everything said and done, schools are here to stay. The education ministry will make changes to the way children are taught and may make it into a 3-4-4 model or something similar. But schooling will not go away altogether.

[am1m]

I think the issue is with bad schools rather than with the concept of schooling itself. I enjoyed both school and college. I'm very happy I went and I certainly learned something. What is the alternative? Home schooling? I don't think it's that easy. I don't have kids, but I certainly am not confident I would be able to educate a child better than what a reasonably good school would. Nowhere near, in fact. I think the child will just get even more dependent on the parent and ultimately might end up just a carbon-copy of the parent in terms of breath of exposure, interests, outlook in life, prejudices, etc.

Speaking of bad schools, my wife just told me about a colleague of hers who received a call from the principal of her son's school. He wanted to ask if she would take a couple of hours coaching for a couple of the son's classmates (1st standard!). Now why would a child in standard 1 need extra coaching?! What is the school doing then? The catch, 50% of the first month's fee goes to...you guessed it...the principal!

[aargee]

Originally Posted by luvDriving

3. History / Geography : Learning everything from the steppes to the tundra, from Shivaji maharaj to Gandhiji, the dates of every major event, boston tea party and all other uprisings - no impact on later life

I was under your same shoes stating Geography & History are useless. That was until one gentleman in this very own forum (who knows real History) proved me wrong & taught me why it is so important to learn History. Anyway, let's keep that away, that's not the point.

Point is, the history taught in school, absolute, no words to cuss further!! Just half a page of history for Chandra Gupta Maurya & a short colored paragraph for Kautilya compared to one whole page glorifying Akbar & Aurangazeeb with just one sentence dedicated for Shivaji Maharaj!!

With relaxed CBSE rules on text books upto 8th grade, the nonsense has been magnified even further. Indian History cannot be derogated any further!! I'm not against learning Moghul invasion, but it should not be at the expense of cutting down Indian originated rulers. No mention on why Alexander's (disputed) victory on India & the list goes on & on. Even we were taught as if Emperor Ashoka turned into a monk after battle of Kalinga, which is not true, he just started adopting more non violence ways.

[blackwasp]

A good friend of mine was interested in photography. His parents promised him a shiny new DSLR if he takes admission in a local engineering college he was least interested in. By the time he was in 2nd year, he was taking up photography assignments and bunking college regularly.

The parents were aghast at him for not having interest in studies, so decided to have a session with his Principal with the hope of drilling some 'sense' into him. Basically the conversion was one sided and my friend wasn't speaking and he was told, engineering is important for a job, then marriage, then to raise a family, take care of old parents and so on..

He simply asked them what is a fresh engineer's salary. The Principal(P) said something to the tune of 25-30 a month. Then the conversation went as follows:
friend: so what is the salary after 2-3 years of experience?
P: You can get 50k a month.
friend: then what?
P: If you still work hard, do an MBA, or M tech and get job in good company you can get 75k a month.
friend:Ok, then what?
P: (losing patience now). What will you do if you don't have money in life?
friend: (pointing to parents), if you just wanted me to earn money, you should have told me no? I charge 20k per assignment and do about 6-8 per month.

This left the Principal and his parents so shocked that they couldn't get any counter argument in. He's a wedding photographer and is doing splendidly in life! He's a proud college drop out.

That said, personally I'm happy with my school education - we had lots of extra curricular activities, sports and more. And I did my schooling in 3 states, 3 different boards and lots of variations in subjects. However, from the 12th, it all started going down. In my engineering, it was the worst. I was learning same thing that my dad learnt in his engineering (I don't mind this), but there was nothing latest being taught. When I told I wanted to use Raspberry pi for my college project I was turned down. Funnily, I did conduct a couple of Raspberry pi workshops in my college fests!

So maybe till 10th schooling is important, but post that we need to have a serious discussion with the stakeholders on how to go about it. Today, when I hear the school fees some pay for their 4-5 year olds, I'm shocked. The yearly fee is more than what I must have paid for my entire education upto engineering! And that too for kids. Not even higher education. Just as a joke, we calculated the situation if this money is saved and invested somewhere for 15 years. The resultant corpus would be so large that you could live off luxuriously for the rest of your life just on the interest earned!

[Chetan_Rao]

Schooling will always be relevant, one learns by observation and evidence, and one gains a lot by learning with and from others.

What needs to change (rather evolve) is the systems we use. One-size-fits-all is never good system (no two people learn the same way), but we made do with what we had. Technological advancements have created tools to enable unprecedented access to and dissemination of information. Researching a subject two decades ago meant spending multiple days in the library to find relevant material just to start, now one can find material in a short time running a few targeted searches on Google Scholar or similar platforms. What hasn't changed is the human requirement to study that material, analyse, compare with alternative theories/opinions and draw inferences. Computers can compute, they can't substitute thinking and human traits (yet).

We need to figure out how to use these tools in our education systems, not swap them in as a substitute. Technology can be a great teacher, but also be a poor master. Look at all the kids hooked onto personal gadgets, at an age they probably can't even spell G-A-D-G-E-T.

Everything has a place, schooling will not be redundant or obsolete until humans give up on learning. Schools, in the form we know them, may need to step aside.

[V.Narayan]

Schooling is only one aspect of learning and growing up in childhood till your mid or late teens. The other three are - the upbringing, values, conversations, role models your parents and other close elders provided at home; what you learnt in the playground and on weekends with your friends including getting walloped; what you taught yourself by your own reading, hobbies and discovering. What ever we are by age 20 is a combination of these four. Why beat up schooling alone.

As @avsidhu correctly states schooling might have been a chore for the very tiny percentage of the super bright and super creative but for the average Joe like me it was a passport to base one.

True, schooling curriculum and methods of teaching need improvement to adjust to the fast changing internet driven technology and certainly our CBSE and ICSE need an upgrade. But I don't buy this avant garde view that simply because of the internet schooling isn't needed. And schooling wasn't just about the books or their contents. It is the child's first exposure to meaningful social interaction, to learn to operate beyond the sight of his/her parents, to learn how to play & interact with others, to deal with bullies, to make friends, to develop resilience, patience and for those of us who got canned a thick hide.

Ask those who don't have access to schools what they think of it. Ask the young mother's for whom school time is respite time to get stuff done!

Some members here quite likely felt their schooling was a waste. Fair enough. Its your view - well and good. There are other views too.

The worthy in the video focuses only on knowledge forgetting the other million social and emotional skills needed which schooling catered to a part of. The video was made undoubtedly for him to earn some eyeballs and social media attention. It has served its purpose well.

One benefit of the internet is the school groups of yore teaming up on WhatsApp etc. On my University WA groups there is still some consciousness and posturing of position and pelf but on my 10th standard school group it is a riot. Every one is a 15-year old and is mercilessly treated as one regardless of who they may be in their careers and we've inducted some of our still living teachers. Schooling has not ended.

[alpha1]

Let us agree that in our world materialism plays the most important role.
And consumerism is the order of the day.

Most of the adult life is spent in competing socially with others (every living human being) and trying to outdo them (economically, or status) and dominating when possible to display power. Adults are selfish, ruthless and motivated to achieve their goals.
And all this is much separate from the simple survival requirements.

How do you train a small child to become such an adult?
Growing up in isolated cocoon (say home education) may take care of the learning aspect, but what about learning pertaining to the social order of our human societies?
That can only happen when the child is among countless others and can experience, in a controlled environment: the human interactions, bonding, manipulations, competition etc at the same time being subject to (sometimes contradictory) spiritualism (in the form of religion, morality). All the stuff that really defines our human societies.

Without schools, we will have adults: but would they be able to take the pressures of living in our modern societies?

[avisidhu]

Originally Posted by blackwasp

...... Today, when I hear the school fees some pay for their 4-5 year olds, I'm shocked. The yearly fee is more than what I must have paid for my entire education upto engineering! And that too for kids. Not even higher education. Just as a joke, we calculated the situation if this money is saved and invested somewhere for 15 years. The resultant corpus would be so large that you could live off luxuriously for the rest of your life just on the interest earned!

Forget the expensive ones, even a conservative figure these days is 1 lakh per annum with 10% increase each year. Add to it the sundry expenses and inflation etc, a ballpark of 30 lakh for 10th alone, is par for the course. I would be keen to see what experienced parents have to comment, but it seems like 1cr to get your kid graduated shouldn't get anyone's eyes rolling anymore.

And then there are some schools 10 times as expensive, which middle class double earning couples very seriously consider as an option nowadays.

Originally Posted by alpha1

....
That can only happen when the child is among countless others and can experience, in a controlled environment: the human interactions, bonding, manipulations, competition etc at the same time being subject to (sometimes contradictory) spiritualism (in the form of religion, morality). All the stuff that really defines our human societies.

Without schools, we will have adults: but would they be able to take the pressures of living in our modern societies?

Somehow this aspect is not given its due importance.

In fact kids who are introverts and socially challenged many a times are the main beneficiaries, even though they hate their school experience afterwards (exception: bullying). All those years of struggles and disappointments let you know the pitfalls and mistakes to avoid in the big bad world outside. I've noticed many such awkward teenagers bloom into bright and cheerful adults. Not to say their schooling was the one that did the trick, but who's to say it didn't?