How often airlines upgrade their fleets?

sbasak · 10th April 2007, 15:31

Once I read that many of AI/IC aircrafts are over 20 years old.

How often do they replace their fleets?

How does Indian airline cos. compare with overseas counterparts?

We often discuss here as this car is too old and needs replacement? But how do I not feel unsafe in decade old aeroplanes?

Any idea?

Gordon · 10th April 2007, 16:20

Heard this from a friend. He says, "AI pick airplanes from an airline dumpyard abroad, actually repair them and get it here".

He also added, "Thats why AI engineers are the best".

tsk1979 · 10th April 2007, 16:45

After a crash if the plane is unrepairable, or completely destroyed, it is replaced, until then its all "Livin' on a prayer"

esteem_lover · 10th April 2007, 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon

Heard this from a friend. He says, "AI pick airplanes from an airline dumpyard abroad, actually repair them and get it here".

He also added, "Thats why AI engineers are the best".

I find it hard to beleive that. A private airline (air deccan) might do that, not a govt airline & who said AI engineers are the best ? i wouldn't call them the worst, surely they aren't the best.

adya33 · 10th April 2007, 20:19

There was article a few months ago in Times Of India, which said that European aviation sector has some voluntary safety checks and they issue certificate. AI was one of the first airline to receive that certificate.

So somehow I find it hard to believe that they pick airplanes from an airline dump-yard abroad.

v1p3r · 10th April 2007, 20:47

This dumpyard thing is all crap. An airframe normally has a lifespan of x years, and the country's regulatory body issues an airworthiness certificate based on a no of parameters, including age, history, service history, etc. In India this would probably be the DGCA.

Zappo · 11th April 2007, 15:53

Yesterday two AI planes came in for advanced L-II landing... thats a emergency landing. In both cases the nosewheels jammed and refused to lock.

While the second incident was not so serious (compared to the first) in the first instance the planes nosewheel collapsed when it was being towed out of the runway after landing. It blocked the IGI airport for the better part of the day. And... the plane was more than 20 years old.

It is a fact that most of the AI and IA planes are decades old... for that matter most airlines rarely ever go for upgradation. As long as they can they keep the planes flying. That is unless they took the plane on lease. Private operators can afford to upgrade their fleet at times since many of their planes are on wet-lease and others on dry lease.

sbasak · 11th April 2007, 15:57

Quote:

Private operators can afford to upgrade their fleet at times since many of their planes are on wet-lease and others on dry lease.

What's the difference between two leases?

Few months back, an entire engine of Biman B'Desh fell off to runway in UAE while taking off. Luckily no one was hurn. Biman is known to fly planes 30 yrs old.

GTO · 11th April 2007, 16:07

Call it a mental block, a bias or whatever....but I dont think I am flying AI anytime soon.

sreedotk · 11th April 2007, 16:17

[quote=sbasak;411217]What's the difference between two leases?[quote]

Wet lease is when you lease the aircraft along with the flying crew and also maintainance (this i am not sure). Dry lease is when you take a plane and release it back to the leasing company the way you leased it and this lease does not come with personnel required for the operational requirements.

Regarding AI it is true that most of the AI's 747 series are either in the going to be 20's bracket and most airframes are good for 25 years.

Interesting and veering a little off topic would be that it is infact more expensive to run these older generation aircraft as the newer generation aircraft are more lighter (due to use of composite materials in construction) and better /fuel efficient engine. The difference between a supposedly first generation 747 and latest 747 in fuel savings is around 10-15%

Most of the 747 in AI's are leased from internation Carrier Leasing companies.

Oh some trivia On June 11, 1962 Air India became the world's first all-jet airline.

There are some Humorous Expansions for PIA and AI , but i fear i might hurt some religious feelings.

CaliAtenza · 12th April 2007, 03:47

AI has ordered all new planes...show be delivered soon.

Su-47 · 12th April 2007, 10:09

Gents, Does anyone know how old the aircrafts employed by AirDeccan and IA are? I have my own wonderful experience of flying Air-Deccan, but thats another story.

Unfortunately, these are the only two airlines which connect the tier-2/3 cities.

Cheers,
Su-47

10th April 2007, 15:31	#1
sbasak BHPian Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CCU-LTN Posts: 607 Thanked: 16 Times	How often airlines upgrade their fleets? Once I read that many of AI/IC aircrafts are over 20 years old. How often do they replace their fleets? How does Indian airline cos. compare with overseas counterparts? We often discuss here as this car is too old and needs replacement? But how do I not feel unsafe in decade old aeroplanes? Any idea?
	() Thanks

10th April 2007, 16:20	#2
Gordon Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 2,549 Thanked: 508 Times View My Garage	Heard this from a friend. He says, "AI pick airplanes from an airline dumpyard abroad, actually repair them and get it here". He also added, "Thats why AI engineers are the best".
	() Thanks

10th April 2007, 16:45	#3
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,688 Thanked: 23,489 Times View My Garage	After a crash if the plane is unrepairable, or completely destroyed, it is replaced, until then its all "Livin' on a prayer"
	() Thanks

10th April 2007, 20:19	#5
adya33 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pune Posts: 1,834 Thanked: 185 Times	There was article a few months ago in Times Of India, which said that European aviation sector has some voluntary safety checks and they issue certificate. AI was one of the first airline to receive that certificate. So somehow I find it hard to believe that they pick airplanes from an airline dump-yard abroad.
	() Thanks

10th April 2007, 20:47	#6
v1p3r Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: BLR / DXB / LON Posts: 5,363 Thanked: 7,504 Times View My Garage Infractions: 0/1 (7)	This dumpyard thing is all crap. An airframe normally has a lifespan of x years, and the country's regulatory body issues an airworthiness certificate based on a no of parameters, including age, history, service history, etc. In India this would probably be the DGCA.
	() Thanks

11th April 2007, 15:53	#7
Zappo Team-BHP Support Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Hyderabad Posts: 5,907 Thanked: 2,746 Times	Yesterday two AI planes came in for advanced L-II landing... thats a emergency landing. In both cases the nosewheels jammed and refused to lock. While the second incident was not so serious (compared to the first) in the first instance the planes nosewheel collapsed when it was being towed out of the runway after landing. It blocked the IGI airport for the better part of the day. And... the plane was more than 20 years old. It is a fact that most of the AI and IA planes are decades old... for that matter most airlines rarely ever go for upgradation. As long as they can they keep the planes flying. That is unless they took the plane on lease. Private operators can afford to upgrade their fleet at times since many of their planes are on wet-lease and others on dry lease.
	() Thanks

11th April 2007, 16:07	#9
GTO Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 71,769 Thanked: 322,361 Times View My Garage	Call it a mental block, a bias or whatever....but I dont think I am flying AI anytime soon.
	() Thanks

11th April 2007, 16:17	#10
sreedotk BHPian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Chennai Posts: 248 Thanked: 90 Times	[quote=sbasak;411217]What's the difference between two leases?[quote] Wet lease is when you lease the aircraft along with the flying crew and also maintainance (this i am not sure). Dry lease is when you take a plane and release it back to the leasing company the way you leased it and this lease does not come with personnel required for the operational requirements. Regarding AI it is true that most of the AI's 747 series are either in the going to be 20's bracket and most airframes are good for 25 years. Interesting and veering a little off topic would be that it is infact more expensive to run these older generation aircraft as the newer generation aircraft are more lighter (due to use of composite materials in construction) and better /fuel efficient engine. The difference between a supposedly first generation 747 and latest 747 in fuel savings is around 10-15% Most of the 747 in AI's are leased from internation Carrier Leasing companies. Oh some trivia On June 11, 1962 Air India became the world's first all-jet airline. There are some Humorous Expansions for PIA and AI , but i fear i might hurt some religious feelings. Last edited by sreedotk : 11th April 2007 at 16:27. Reason: added some trivia
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12th April 2007, 03:47	#11
CaliAtenza BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: LAX-SNA-BFL-BLR Posts: 321 Thanked: 20 Times	AI has ordered all new planes...show be delivered soon.
	() Thanks

12th April 2007, 10:09	#12
Su-47 BHPian Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Bangalore Posts: 693 Thanked: 364 Times	Gents, Does anyone know how old the aircrafts employed by AirDeccan and IA are? I have my own wonderful experience of flying Air-Deccan, but thats another story. Unfortunately, these are the only two airlines which connect the tier-2/3 cities. Cheers, Su-47
	() Thanks