[DarthVeda]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I was an average student all my academic life. I never scored above 65%, just to make it clear. I know these days 80% is considered average. I never liked memorizing facts, which means I had no hopes of scoring high in Indian school system. I would only learn by understanding conceptually. While this played havoc with my academic scores, it did help me a lot once I started working.

So I barely squeezed out of engineering while maintaining 61% average.

After the first couple years, I never really struggled to get jobs. In IT, average students can have a good career.

Originally Posted by Samurai

I have been hiring fresh graduates for nearly 20 years, and never saw a correlation between high scores and programming skills. It was a random scatter plot.

Truer words have been spoken or something like that the saying goes. You have actually mirrored my thoughts. Our schools are aimed at memory power test, and nobody in the industry survives on memory since you have to solve a problem, which is new, and in IT, you have stackoverflow so you don't need to remember the code syntax anyway

My scores in college be it by before university or in university, weren't that great. My wife scored in high 90s and me in mid 60s and 70s. She does similar work like I do, and dare I say, less meaningfull

I have been interviewing students for past decade, and I always ask them to explain OOPS concept like they have to do to their parents or grand parent, and they fail horribly because the only way they can explain is text book definition.

[WindRide]

The only reason to study in "premier" institutes is for better placements. Students from these institutes basically start their careers with more zeros in the pay slip. For the rest the starting point is with med reps and sales people kinda salaries.

After few years in the industry, your alma mater becomes irrelevant. Problem solving and communication skills take precedence.

Of course, if you are into academia, there are no two ways about it - "premier" institutes are "premier" for a sound reason and are the only places you should try to be in.

[binand]

Originally Posted by WindRide

The only reason to study in "premier" institutes is for better placements.

There is a second reason which most people in early stages of their careers don't realise - the alumni network and the benefits to be derived from it.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by DarthVeda

and in IT, you have stackoverflow so you don't need to remember the code syntax anyway

I didn't have stackoverflow in the first two decades of my career. Not even Internet in the first 3 years.

Originally Posted by binand

the alumni network and the benefits to be derived from it.

I never ever experienced the benefits of alumni network. So I don't really miss it. So, allow me to bring news from land of the ordinary.

An average student from an ordinary college can have a good career in IT even without stackoverflow. There is no need to think it is the end of the world, if one doesn't get into IIT or its alumni list. I know plenty of people like me who had ordinary education as an ordinary student, and yet doing well in their chosen career. If one has good aptitude for technology, one can learn very quickly.

[binand]

Originally Posted by Samurai

An average student from an ordinary college can have a good career in IT even without stackoverflow.

Don't misunderstand me - I agree with you totally here.

What I was saying is that the organised and nurtured alumni network is one of those things you don't feel the need until you need it. Many people perhaps go through their entire professional careers not feeling the need. But when something unplanned happens (eg: layoffs/unexpected job loss) it might be good to have such a support system.

Originally Posted by Samurai

I know plenty of people like me who had ordinary education as an ordinary student, and yet doing well in their chosen career.

This probably needs to be looked at statistically. How well is the bottom 20% of a given non-IIT batch doing when compared to the bottom 20% of the same year's IIT batch? Next 20%? Top 20%?

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by binand

But when something unplanned happens (eg: layoffs/unexpected job loss) it might be good to have such a support system.

I did struggle for jobs in the first two years. That was when India was in terrible economic situation of 91-92, before the effects of reforms started trickling in. Compared to those times, today's employment situation is infinitely better. Having always had alumni network, you probably can't imagine living without it. It is not that bad, that is what I am saying. Having strong alumni network is like living in a gated community, with all the common area facilities like security, facility management, pool, gym, etc. But you must realise that most people live in individual homes and are also happy in their own way. It is manageable.

Originally Posted by binand

This probably needs to be looked at statistically. How well is the bottom 20% of a given non-IIT batch doing when compared to the bottom 20% of the same year's IIT batch? Next 20%? Top 20%?

Why pick bottom 20%? They usually wash out into unrelated fields. I had a boss (IITian) who used say "never scrape the bottom while hiring" even from IITs. If you can't hire from the top 10% of IIT, go to 10% of the NIT, and after that 10% of the 3rd tier college. Yet, he hired me somehow...

Instead compare the top 20% from IIT with top 20% from non-IIT. Then you won't see much difference.

[binand]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Having always had alumni network, you probably can't imagine living without it. It is not that bad, that is what I am saying.

Let us leave this here. We are on the opposite sides of the track.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Why pick bottom 20%? They usually wash out into unrelated fields.

Instead compare the top 20% from IIT with top 20% from non-IIT. Then you won't see much difference.

I didn't pick on the bottom 20%. I divided the whole pool into five 20% buckets. I'm sure the top 20% of IIT/non-IIT will be indistinguishable 10-15 years on. What about the next, the middle and all the way to the bottom? In my (empirical) view, the chasm widens as you go further away from the top. So much so that as you rightly point out, at the bottom 20% they end up going into unrelated fields.

It is the middle 60% that is important. The cohort that the vast majority of parents see in their daily lives. The reason they want the IIT-tag for their children and are willing to send them to coaching bootcamps.

[1.2TSI7DSG]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I was an average student all my academic life. I never scored above 65%, just to make it clear. I know these days 80% is considered average. I never liked memorizing facts, which means I had no hopes of scoring high in Indian school system. I would only learn by understanding conceptually. While this played havoc with my academic scores, it did help me a lot once I started working.

Golden Words!

Key changes in scenarios:

1. Too many people, too much information, too fast information - result-FOMO
2. Parents feel like they want their kids to get the best so that they don't judge them in the future - causing - confusion in parents themselves about what can a career be with different learning experiences/streams basis their own risk appetite
3. What worked for bill gates and Mukesh may not work out for everyone - to every success story, there are 100 + unknown failure stories.
4. With so much information and resumes, it is impossible to evaluate everyone personally, and hence a decent academic score signals the ability to reproduce the stuff accurately and consistently. Until we change our exams to test logic and reward logic over memory, we will continue to have the scatter plot of the score vs professional perfomance.

[Piyush Kanthak]

As a student of class 12th, I have experienced all of this. Byjus is such a scam, they call the parents and persuade them into buying their courses. Thankfully I didn't get into one. The main reason why parents put their children into these scams are due to uncertainty, just because one is doing and schools not teaching properly at all.

Another huge scam is integrated courses offered especially by Chaitanya Narayana schools. They trick you by telling that they will prepare you for Jee and other competitive exam.
But in reality they don't teach at all, their English isn't good, you don't understand what they say, they finish the portion in August itself, just imagine what they teach, timings are from 8-5. On the name of revision they just do 1 topic and leave the rest.
Since they don't teach, I have to spend extra time watching lectures on YouTube, Physicswallah is an excellent channel for Undergraduate students.
I regret joining in Chaitanya, guys beware, don't send your child there.

[charanreddy]

Originally Posted by androdev

Ha ha, I would argue that it's the only good part of IIT/NIT. Builds character :-) Academic blocks can safely be removed from these institutions. Most institutions benefit more from their rigorous selection process and co-living of bright ambitious people than the so-called faculty and academic programs. Remove the rigorous selection process and co-living - these institutions will be as mediocre as any other.

I agree with the hostels part, it builds character.

Having studied my undergraduate at a govt engineering college in AP and masters at IIT Delhi, based on my personal experience I can safely say the above is not 100% true. There is night and day difference between the two.

The quality of the professors at IIT is one of the best. The focus is not on theory, but application and evolution of the field. I once tried to take a optional course in computer science undergrad course in Operating systems. The course was being taught by Subhasis Banerjee, head of comp. science. The opening statement from the prof goose something like this : I am assuming you have all gone through the text book, let’s talk about next gen operating systems and note that this is just the first few classes.

From experience, some of the faculty in IITs are world class academicians who have pushed the boundaries of the field in their own right. Not comparing to world class universities in US or Europe as I don’t have first hand knowledge. My post graduate degree has opened career paths to me which were unthinkable from my undergrad which is a very reputable, and one of the oldest engineering colleges in the county founded around 1954.

The students are absolutely bright and rock stars in their own right, but to discount the impact of world class academicians is not right IMHO.

. It is not a big mystery; work experience is a great equalizer. If you enjoy the work, you can learn quickly and perform as well as most IITians. I.

Truer words have not been spoken. Our academic duration is 4 - 6 years while one spends 30 years in their career. It is absolutely incorrect that the first 4-6 years has an ever lasting influence on career. One can learn what ever one wants to in their career and negate the influence of educational background to a great extent.

I have personally experienced this in my own career as well seen close friends do it. If intent and attitude is right , sky is the limit.

I have seen IIM (A) + IIT Ian’s perform badly in their jobs due to lack of intent while folks from regular colleges do extremely well and progress faster.

The way I see it we need to aspire for the best , IIT, IIM etc but recognise the benefits offered by there are not insurmountable. One may need to work harder but it can be done and has been done.

[alpha1]

Parents need to understand a few things:

1) Luck matters everywhere in life. Being prepared is the groundwork you do, but eventually luck does play an important role in where you are, and you will be.

2) Financial success (that's what parents are worried about right - not personal success or happiness) comes only when you are (a) able to take risks {=doing what most people are afraid or uncomfortable to do} (b) build a consensus among differing opinions & values {=leadership and team building - yeah you can even lead your boss and superiors} (c) being politically astute {= building & making use of connections} (d) being ruthless with any perceived obstacle or competition {=results at any cost, bend/ignore rules} (e) career is the only priority

While getting into IIT/IIM/MIT etc. may impart a better training (debatable but lets proceed with this premise) - it can only help you become a better entry level technical worker.

IIT/IIM/etc will not change the basic nature of human being. Most people are not the above type by design (and I am glad so) and people do realize their true inner characteristics and goals with time (some in 30s, most in 40s).


***


By the way, I am millennial, undertook coaching from FIITJEE, got into IIT and still wonder about the 2 years I spent in my teenage (11th and 12th) in exam prep and the ensuing (unnecessary) stress- as if the world will crash if you don't pass JEE. I would like to add that in my 4 year stay (including seniors and juniors), hardly 5-10% were academically inclined, most people made it in because of fear.

[ajay_satpute]

Byju's fundamentals are wrong !

Unfortunately for me, I had to interact with them twice, once over a call and once because the neighbor was head over heels for them. During both interactions, the sales team started by saying that all schools are not doing a good job and the kids to teacher ratio is horribly skewed and your kid's future is dark.

When I told the salesman that I am going to share this experience in writing with my daughter's school and I am going to meet the principal of the school to inform him what Byju's thinks about schools. The guy started blabbering, stammering, sweating and all. He then went defensive and started saying that this happens in most schools & not all, Some schools are good, etc...

I cannot start preaching about a new business by completely negating an existing rooted system. Like someone mentioned, parents of average students or naive parents will easily walk into such traps but most of us will not.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by 1.2TSI7DSG

What worked for bill gates and Mukesh may not work out for everyone - to every success story, there are 100 + unknown failure stories.

Average students having a decent IT career is a norm, how are you comparing it with Bill Gates and Ambani?

Originally Posted by alpha1

I would like to add that in my 4 year stay (including seniors and juniors), hardly 5-10% were academically inclined, most people made it in because of fear.

Fear of what? That their life is over if they don't get into IIT? I am curious, when you finally entered the work force and encountered non-IITian peers, what did you think about your earlier fear?

[surfatwork]

Originally Posted by androdev

Most institutions benefit more from their rigorous selection process and co-living of bright ambitious people than the so-called faculty and academic programs.

Very true. 100% agree. I can safely say that I learnt precious little of note at NIT (or REC , as it was called then) and my MBA institute

[hondatoyotafan]

Originally Posted by PreludeSH

"When do you work hard and what you work hard at that awards you". There is no other way the world can measure you. Some people lose interest despite ability and some people excel with hard work.

Whatever you have said is the truth of life in any respect. But back then i was a 16 year old who never faced any failure till then so the obvious thing to me was to run away from the problem. Went through more roller-coaster rides in life before i stopped running away from risks/challenges.

Originally Posted by binand

There is a second reason which most people in early stages of their careers don't realise - the alumni network and the benefits to be derived from it.

I do not know about the IIT network but my present workplace has a closed group of IIM-A alums who garner a lot of senior manager and director positions thanks to the country head who is a fellow IIM-A alumni.