[Rajeevraj]

Originally Posted by poloman

Were these people undergone any physical fitness tests before the trek? What kind of safety practices were put in place? Are people overstretching their physical limits by going in for such arduous treks?
Many questions remain unanswered.

I was following this closely as my wife does treks and has done the Kashmir Great Lakes as well as couple of Uttarakhand Treks. The group was mostly experienced trekkers who had done several treks. In fact most of the people who passed away(May their soul rest in peace) had done upward of 50 Treks in all conditions. So does not look like trek experience or preparation was an issue.

This X thread details some of the key reasons and mistakes why this all went wrong which I thought was a good summary.

https://x.com/kalapian_/status/17986...yuHJF6Ksg&s=08

[airguitar]

Originally Posted by poloman

I think these incidents should highlight the gross commercialization of trekking and similar activities happening in Himalayas. Were these people undergone any physical fitness tests before the trek? What kind of safety practices were put in place? Are people overstretching their physical limits by going in for such arduous treks?
Many questions remain unanswered.

Having done a few of those Himalayan treks (I'm not a super-experienced trekker, may have done 3 or 4 ), I can say for sure that Nature reigns supreme. There are too many variables and one can only reduce those variables, not completely eliminate them.

1. Condition of the body and mind: on most of the high-altitude treks, the best in the group have been the more hefty people and not the gym-types. Maybe because they have an immunity to cold due to the fat layer, maybe because they know the right breathing technique. Not generalizing, but so happened on my treks ( I am on of those hefty guys ). Best != Quickest. Best = Those that complete without any health issues. So knowing the drill is important. There have been cases where some in the group have had to be rescued via helicopter etc due to hitting AMS ( thankfully that was not a no-connectivity trek )
   
2. Mountain weathers are notoriously inclement after 2/3pm. We always used to complete our day's schedule before that, especially at higher altitudes. The campsites have to be safe, chosen by people that know the area well. Areas that are not prone to wild animals, rainwater, or landslides or other mountain-related perils.
   
3. The trek itself has to be guided by a person/local that has been on that trek multiple times. They understand something when they see it. E.g, which glacial piece is not going to break when you walk over them, which one is bear's paw print, where there could be crevasses etc. The only exception to this rule is if you are an Aussie (half-jesting, half-serious, but only the truth). I have seen many daredevil Aussies in the Himalayas doing treks carrying all their stuff and without a guide in tow. They complete successfully all the time. In fact even the Pahadis that accompany us are amazed at how the Aussies were so similar in technique and approach to them.
   
4. Knowing danger signs, again needs experience. Weather related or otherwise.
   
5. Keeping a watch on the camp at night. For all your precautions, you never know what can happen at night. It's better that someone/a few take turns to be on guard.
   
6. Nothing foolhardy to be done, follow the rules and be honest with yourself if you can do something or not. If there are problems, there has to be an experienced person in the group that makes decisions in the best interest of the group. You are going to pose a moral dilemma to the group and also a stress on the logistics if you need to be aborting midway due to a problem. Start with light treks and build into the heavier ones.
   
7. A satellite phone is sorely missed during treks ( I'm given to believe that some of the more commercial trek organizers have their leads carry one ). I tried finding out subscription charges etc, but given I don't do treks / not done recently, didn't pursue. BSNL used to provide satellite phone (device rentals + subscription charges )
   
8. Lastly, the most important one, despite taking all humanely possible precautions, Nature reigns supreme. You need to be aware of the risks you are taking ( and so does your family need to know ). Which is why we start our treks with a prayer on our lips. Many of us are a superstitious/respectful lot, tending to not make casual or joking comments about the mountains.

This article : https://www.thenewsminute.com/karnat...n-to-bengaluru : seems to give a bit more information on what seems to have happened. Note that 2 folks seem to have gone ahead before the weather became inclement ( so they did seem to have an inkling of what was to come?) and the blizzard seems to have happened around/after 2pm.

One of the rules that my Guru sets is never trek in the Himalayas after the first week of Jun, cause the monsoon would have set in the northern parts. But this year, while the monsoons are yet to progress to the norther parts yet, the late snow seems to be have been due to the El Nino from the last year causing delayed snowfall as we all have been saying. We also don't trek until the end of the September. To avoid rains and related effects like landslides etc. Net-net, it's not fair for me to commentate sitting here, but seems the guys in charge of the group could have read the weather better?

My condolences to the families of the folks that lost their lives

[grazd]

Heartbreaking to hear of such a tragedy. It looks like the trek was run by the Karnataka Mountaineering association with a local agency. It seems they were hit by a severe blizzard, and I wonder if there should have been better training/safety margins for such activity. In an era of increasing climate extreme events, perhaps the safety margins should also be appropriately evaluated.
.
more information here:

https://www.kmaindia.org/events-2-1/...al-uttarakhand

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...4+brochure.pdf

[sukhbirST]

Before trekking, there should be training on search and rescue along with survival techniques which are part of aviation training. Everyone must know enemies of survival namely, Fear & Anxiety, Cold & heat, Thirst, Boredom & loneliness, Fatigue, Hunger and lastly Pain & Injury. In Navy, I remember undergoing jungle survival exercise after being helo dropped in jungles. In fact, it should be known to anyone who travels by air and one must read survival techniques in Snow, desert, jungle, and sea. We have read may real stories of passengers surviving air crashes. Sadly, safety is talked only after incidents and never taken seriously in our country.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

The detection of such devices across the country is too advanced. You carry a device illegally switched off and somehow manage to avoid detection. As soon as you switch it on, the govt gets to know everything about it. There have been instances when uninformed foreigners who carried the phones undetected through the airports were later on apprehended when the switched on the devices.

I would be interested in understanding how detect a satellite phone in use?
Satellite phones communicate directly with the satellites. There are no ground base stations such as in cellular network. The radio signal is encrypted. So intercepting a radio signal on the ground is near impossible. Especially as these modern satellite phones on relative low power.

Those that have access to the few ground station for the satellite are in a better position to intercept call. Although it is very tricky and to the best of my knowledge very few government agencies in this world have the capabilities.

Being able to detect a satellite phone being switched on, is quite a feat, if not myth. Obviously, if you are near enough you can see them. But to detect them? I remain sceptical.

Jeroen

[Fuldagap]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I would be interested in understanding how detect a satellite phone in use?
Satellite phones communicate directly with the satellites. There are no ground base stations such as in cellular network. The radio signal is encrypted. So intercepting a radio signal on the ground is near impossible. Especially as these modern satellite phones on relative low power.

Those that have access to the few ground station for the satellite are in a better position to intercept call. Although it is very tricky and to the best of my knowledge very few government agencies in this world have the capabilities.

Being able to detect a satellite phone being switched on, is quite a feat, if not myth. Obviously, if you are near enough you can see them. But to detect them? I remain sceptical.

Jeroen

Sir your skepticism is valid. But you have answered the query too. What is not in public domain will always remain so unless told by the government itself.

A simple google search will lead to numerous news articles about it.
As an experiment one can try sneaking a satellite phone through an airport or via any other channel, switch it on when it feels comfortable, switch it off or continue using it and then wait for a police jeep. One can even try to escape a police jeep and start travelling with the phone. To fetch better results, using a Thuraya is recommended. It is hard to believe for people not in the know.
How they do it, it is just technology. A very vital one for a country like ours.

Many satellite phone users do so with govt approval only.
Explaining the technical part is just spreading hearsay. I'm confident about how it is done is absent from the net too. But who knows maybe avid googlers can find that info too.

[bobbyblr]

From what I read in newspapers yesterday is that there was a sudden unexpected blizzard and the visibility dropped to just 1 feet, they were not able to see each other.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

Sir your skepticism is valid. But you have answered the query too. What is not in public domain will always remain so unless told by the government itself.
.

I happen to know quite a bit about (legal) interception in mobile and satellite networks. It was part of my job. When working in the USA I worked with various law enforcement agencies.

You would be surprised how much of the capabilities is in the public domain, if you know where to look. Intercepting data and voice calls is specified in details in the various Mobile network specification. Anybody with sufficient technical know-how can build a pretty good image of what the theoretical capabilities of a network are. Its not rocket science. In most country all operators (fixed, mobile, satellite) need to be able to comply with legal interception requirements. Its part of the network license. And you need the various commercial partners of the network involved as well.

We used to provide consultancy services to law enforcement agencies on how to set up their interception services.

I have worked with Indian officials on (legal) interception in the past. India and some other countries too, have a tendency to try and hush up things, that in most other countries are common good / public domain. You might declare it illegal in India, it is still in the public domain and commercial and standardisation body requirements in the rest of the world.

Whereas it is always possible things exist we are not aware of, it is equally so, that hose with decent technical knowledge of these systems can have a pretty good idea what is (likely) possible. Because physics is the same for everybody.

Intercepting low power dedicated, aimed, radio signals from ground to satelite is next to impossible. Unless you happen to be very near. In which case you a likely to visually spot it too! Picking up a dedicated encrypted packet of data from a satellite to a specific satellite phone is just about impossible.

Nothing secret about it, just how these radiowaves behave. Nobody, not even the Idian authorities, can change the laws of physics

Look up the communication protocol for satellite phones. Its all detaillled what is sent back and forth between phone and satellite. Down to the last bit!
Without it being specified you can't get vendors producing phones and satellites.

Jeroen

[bejoy]

Originally Posted by Jaguar

I've always wonder why satelite based communication devices like SPOT are still banned in our country. The report says one of the guides had to trek to a place with mobile connectivity to call for help. An SOS device would have been a lifesaver in this case.

Government has allowed mountaineers/trekkers on Himalayas to use Satellite phones after getting permission. It seems many trekking organizers have permission to operate the same.

[1] https://www.shikhar.com/blog/satelli...ian-himalayas/
[2] https://kahluradventures.com/satelli...ring-in-india/

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I would be interested in understanding how detect a satellite phone in use?
Satellite phones communicate directly with the satellites.

Any calls on these satellite phone providers from devices located on Indian mainland has to use India based servers, as per the government directive. Also I believe there is a contractual agreement with these providers to report the call dumps periodically to the govt.

[Fuldagap]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Intercepting low power dedicated, aimed, radio signals from ground to satelite is next to impossible. Unless you happen to be very near. In which case you a likely to visually spot it too! Picking up a dedicated encrypted packet of data from a satellite to a specific satellite phone is just about impossible.


Jeroen

Seems impossible. Maybe. But satellite phone interception, especially Thuraya & Inmarsat is pretty common and too old a tech. It is as unbelievable as hacking an iPhone or an Android running latest versions of softwares.
Not only the presence of a Thuraya can be intercepted but also the communications from it.
I'm not aware about the legality or illegality of such interceptions.

However, activating a Thuraya (anywhere, land or sea where it is disallowed) and waiting for a police jeep (a boat on the sea) is what I'm sure of. It works 100%. Many toruists have been fined, apprehended.

[naveen.raju]

Originally Posted by poloman

I think these incidents should highlight the gross commercialization of trekking and similar activities happening in Himalayas. Were these people undergone any physical fitness tests before the trek? What kind of safety practices were put in place? Are people overstretching their physical limits by going in for such arduous treks?
Many questions remain unanswered.

This tells us some of the answers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PhSTbJdwes

[Fuldagap]

Originally Posted by Nomad

People who haven’t tried a 1000 Meters attempting 10K plus meters elevation.

This is spot on. People not used to heights upwards of 2.5k - 3k meters need to make their bodies and minds capable of handling such altitudes. Lack of oxygen and its effect on the the endurance typically starts from 3k meters.

Originally Posted by sachinayak

The altitudes mentioned in your post need to be in feet and not meters, just an FYI.

1K meters is about rightly mentioned by Nomad.
In Karnataka, major peaks are in the range of 1k-2k meters. Which is basically nothing compared to the altitudes of the Himalayan ranges. The major peaks in Uttarakhand are in the range of 6k-7.8k meters.

Till 3k meters one can even go unprepared or say till 2.5K meters. After that the body needs a lot of preparation for sustained trekking. even menial tasks can fatigue the body at 3k meters altitude for somebody not acclimatised.

[NammaTBHP]

The trekking scene in Nepal is very very different from that in India. Nepal gets a lot of revenue from foreign trekkers, and the commercialization of treks in Nepal is at a completely different level than here.

Just to give an example - I did a solo trek in Nepal last year. I did not have to bother about food/accommodation. Every hour on the trek you will find tea-houses (basically local lodges) that will provide you food, accommodation, drinks, internet and more. One of the tea-houses at the higest campsite on the trek had advertised - Pool Table. On the Everest base camp trek in Nepal, you will have jacuzzi facilities, casinos, spas at Namche Bazaar.

Indian trekking scene is relatively very raw - on majority trails. The typical 1-3 day trails (e.g. Triund Trek around McLeodganj or the short treks around Manali) are indeed commercialized as it attracts a lot of touristy crowds. Then there are some marquee treks that have become ultra-popular for specific reasons e.g. Kedarkantha offers winter snow trekking experience in a relatively short duration. Kashmir Great Lakes/Tarsar Marsar Treks have become popular courtesy social media pics of high-altitude alpine lakes. Many "tourists" come to trek here, and end up doing 1-2 day sections using ponies. Then we have the Sandakhpu trek which has a motorable road all along the way. But these are exceptions.

Most other routes are relatively quiet. You may hardly find any soul after you trek out of the base camp. Sometimes you bump into shephards or find a one-off maggi/chai tapri, but thats about it. No phone network, staying in a tent with absolute basic facilities drives a lot of folks away.

Additionally, many treks are within national parks and government does not give permits outside of the designated trekking season. In Uttarakhand, the High Court prohibited camping on alpine meadows or grassland, locally called Bugyal. Any human activity in a pristine area of nature will come with some negative impact (unfortunately humans do not appreciate what nature provides us), but thankfully in India, based on my limited experience, the commercialization of trekking routes is much lower than what it could have been (e.g. religious tourism).

[sachinayak]

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

1K meters is about rightly mentioned by Nomad.
In Karnataka, major peaks are in the range of 1k-2k meters. Which is basically nothing compared to the altitudes of the Himalayan ranges. The major peaks in Uttarakhand are in the range of 6k-7.8k meters.

My reference was primarily around this part - "people trying to attempt 10K plus meter elevation", sorry for not being clear.

Mount Everest is at an altitude of ~30K feet/8849 meters from sea level. There is nothing higher than that. BTW, Bangalore itself is at an elevation of almost 1K meters from the sea level.

[Fuldagap]

Originally Posted by sachinayak

My reference was primarily around this part - "people trying to attempt 10K plus meter elevation", sorry for not being clear.

Mount Everest is at an altitude of ~30K feet/8849 meters from sea level. There is nothing higher than that. BTW, Bangalore itself is at an elevation of almost 1K meters from the sea level.

I missed the 10k plus meters part completely despite reading twice. The error is totally on my part.
The locals from high altitudes say the Ladhakhis feel at home even at crazy altitudes. The people from the plains (living at or till 2k meters) should acclimatise themselves, have nutritious food and ample preparations in place before attempting anything above 2.5K - 3K treks, especially those that are long (5Km+).