[ananthkamath]

Hey guys,

this is in connection with the thread "What the Heck is Scorpio For" in Indian Car scene a few days ago. There was heated debate on the usefulness of the car & I suggested some mods to improve te car.

After that I joined this group in the hope of contacting one Mr. Roy Sujan, supposed to be one of Mahindra R&D (later turned out he's from Marketing). Thought I could lay my hands on some good Scorpio tech. But I was disappointed to see not much there.

Anyway, some members there got wind of the above-mentioned thread & have quoted from it. Others proceeded to say the following: (copied with latest post first)
************************************************** *

Ghanashyam S Ji.

I will tell you an interesting story. March/April 2005 I was in India for a close relatives wedding. One relative had just bought a Hyundai Accent for 6/7 lakh (I think that is what he said he paid, it was a very low mileage used example). They had a few guests/relatives from the UK and USA. Now I pull up in the Scorpio and all these NRI/PIO want to check out the Scorpio. These are people who drive Saabs, Mercs etc at home. No one bothers with the Accent but everyone wants to have a ride in the Scorpio. Thats says it all for me.

I could not give two hoots about what a Maruti 800 driving juvenile (who gets excited looking at adverts for Sunny Deol vests) has to say.

Dont worry. Most the tbh wale are young kids who think they can race a Maruti with K&N filters against a Ferrari and win. They think the sun shines out of Petes tuning box. They think the Hyundai Accent is a world beater.........(LOL). They think everything foreign is better than Indian brands.

Here some jokes which they would not enjoy :

Did anyone see the luge? It's a 3 foot long little vehicle that has no room, has to be pushed to get started and only goes downhill. Here in America we call that a Hyundai.

HYUNDAI = Hope You Understand Nothing's Driveable And Inexpensive. also could be :
Hang Your UNDerwear Anywhere Inside.

HONDA = Had One Never Did Again

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with you-but still- being a 1 month old
owner,i couldnt digest this fun )

I'm OK now after reading your mail..thanks pal..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--- Madhav Sitaraman <creepzz@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Ghanashyam,
> We know what the truck is made of... Like Singh said
> people have their views and opinions and they voice
> it. But if you notice there are people who do
> support
> the truck and acknowledge its short comings. It is
> only some guys who are expect the truck to behave
> like
> a car who go around talking nonsense.
> I was enjoying the thread for it entertainment value
> call me a sadist if you wish... but you have to
> accept
> that it is fun to see how people fight just to prove
> some really lame point.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --- Ghanashyam S
>
> > ppl used to laugh at me in UK when they heard me
> > having a Hyundai car in India..)
> >
> > They used to say 'hey mate-how do u call
> > it..voooondai
> > or hauuuuuundi-i bet hyundai head wont be able to
> > call
> > its name' )
> >
> > But guys, this URL really made me sick whole day
> > today..truck doesnt deserve this kind of a fun..

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --- S Singh
> >
> > > Ah well everyone is entitled to their opinions.
> > Many
> > > people on that forum think that Honda V-TEC are
> > top
> > > draw and the Hyundai Accent is a great car. In
> the
> > > UK, Hondas are known as cars for grand-dads or
> > > pensioners and the Hyundai Accent has the shape
> of
> > > something my daughter does in her nappies (poo).
> > > Says it all about their super judgement.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > Sinoj Mullangath
> > > wrote:
> > > Warning: May not be suitable for people who
> > doesn't
> > > believe in reality
> > > check or what sane people call "third party
> > > perspective". If you think
> > > that Scorpio is the best designed, this is not
> the
> > > link for you!
> > >
> > > Cheers!
> > > Sinoj


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Madhav Sitaraman
> > > >
> > > > Very interesting thread....
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7897

The mods being suggested are pure speculations but it
is a very exciting thread (a lot of mud-slinging )
Apparently the guy who suggested these mods has also
written to Sujan... Copy of the mail excerpt is a part
of the thread.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--- Sinoj Mullangath

> But any of these is going to make the ride quality
> worse! A profile 50
> tyre is good to look at but not going to help the
> ride at all. Yes, the
> drive quality will improve, and apparently so with
> any of those methods.
> Has anyone tried that? Or is it just speculation?
>
> Layman's solution - Add to the leaf springs, a pair
> of independent
> coils/ gas shocks. The loading capacity will suffer,
> but ride will not
> be as bouncy.
>
> -Sinoj

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Madhav Sitaraman

> > Found this piece of info on Team-bhp.com thread
> about
> > Scorpio... Any engineers on our forum can try n
> see if it
> > makes sense and ofcourse Sujan can also ask his
> engineers
> > about this piece.
> >
> >
> > Mod #1: Increase roll stiffness at the rear. I
> believe the
> > Scorpio can be made more surefooted by
> >
> > a) Reducing spring rate along with increase in
> rebound damping.
> >
> > b) Adding a rear anti-roll bar (this would be
> similar to what
> > is seen on the Fiat 1100D)
> >
> > Mod #2: Lower the entire car by 1.5". The crude
> way is to cut
> > off a coil on the front coil springs and flatten
> the rear
> > springs by the same amount. This will also stiffen
> up the front.
> >
> > Mod #3: Remove the rear jump seats and install the
> bench seat
> > about 1" further back.
> >
> > Mod #4: Use 235/50 R15 Hankook radials on offset
> alloy
> > wheels. These tyres are known to have harder
> sidewalls than
> > other similarly sized tyres and they also have a
> lower
> > profile. The offset increases the track width
> which in theory
> > means better roll stiffness.
> >
> > All these would result in a better handling car
> with more
> > legroom at the back. Of course, developing and
> fine tuning
> > the mods would take the better part of a quarter,
> but the end
> > result is something every Scorpio owner would like
> to get done.
>

[ananthkamath]

Naturally, I was obligated to post a reply:

************************************************** *****

I think the time has come for me to make my first post here.

First off I joined here after learning of Mr.Sujan, in the hope that I
might have access to good technical information; I wrote to him after
learning of this forum from a Team-BHPian. As you have seen in the
thread there he has been courteous enough to reply back. For that I am
thankful.

If you notice I am one of the many people there who acknowledge that
the Scorpio is not really meant to handle like a sports car. But that
since it is hardly used off-road, its on-road manners could do with
some improvement.

I am not claiming to be a professional suspension guy but I do know a
thing or two about suspensions. I have worked with & been under the
tutelage of a person who raced at the national level for 35 years. So
I know what is involved in designing, building, testing & racing a
open wheel special Formula car. I have worked with TVS Motor in the
past at Production Engineering. So I know what is involved in
manufacturing. I think that qualifies me enough to be NOT one of the
kids who believes that a Maruti with K&N can compete with a Ferrari.

But that does not mean one can generalize about a popular forum like
Team-BHP just on the basis of a perfunctory glance. True, there are
some naive kids there, but most are intelligent worldly-wise people
who have atleast some knowledge of cars; if not modifying atleast
buying and maintaining them for years. There are professional
automotive engineers, racers, and tuners also. The scale of Team-BHP
is just too big to be generalizing about. It is, after all, set up on
its own server & has enough people to be caring about its contents.

I understand that many people here are proud owners of Scorpios. I
would like to state that we have had a couple of the early examples in
the extended family. Again, it does not follow that the "truck" as you
term it, is perfect. It has its faults.

The purpose of that thread initially was to bad-mouth the Scorpio. The
tone gradually changed to one of acceptance for what it is and then
how to improve it some. I believe the people who posted there later
all knew what they were talking about.

Mr S Singh, just because Hyundais & VTEC s are not liked or even
ridiculed in the UK/US doesnt mean that they are bad or ill-suited to
the Indian market. Your levity, while entertaining, rids itself of all
logic when looked at objectively. Please do not assess the worth of an
automobile depending on its image elsewhere in the world. Their
standards & expectations are totally different from ours. And we all
know the Americans make fun of everything including themselves. In
other words, the amusing acronyms that you mention are of little value
other than to the juveniles who made them up.


The modifications that I suggested & discussed with my fellow
Team-BHPians were earnestly meant at developing an aftermarket kit for
the Scorpio,available on demand to anyone interested in using them. I
have myself said, in the letter to Mr.Sujan, that whatever mods
suggested were "at the cost of some low-speed ride quality". And Mr.
Sinoj, your "laymans solution" will not work simply because by adding
"independent coils" (?) you are making things even stiffer. We want
more roll stiffness, not static stiffness. About gas shocks, maybe, I
can't say with certitude that they will work.If you or anyone else has
tried them please share your knowledge, thats what forums are for.

The discussions were purely conjecture. And nothing else. However, any
engineer worth his salt will tell you that great design BEGINS with
conjecture. Innovation COMES from speculation. There is no need to
quote out of context and then start making fun of it.

Finally, I would like to say to the prospective buyers of the Scorpio
vehicle, do not be put off by this thread. Most people who
unequivocally condemned the vehicle were "kids with the K&Ns" & so no
attention need be paid to them. Go ahead & buy if you want to. Whats
important is the vehicle fits your needs and you don't expect supercar
handling from it.

Ananth Kamath

************************************************** ***

This is what I, & because of me, Team-BHP get for sharing what we know in a public forum.

We need to make Team-BHP exclusive like Macdizzy & RDDreams.com especially after the Pulsarian Report.

Ananth

[The Wolf]

Great post Ananth...Well, the finesse of your verbatim lays hidden beneath the curtains of maturity. Im sure you have put across your intention more than clear if one can read between the lines or rather straight through! One thing for sure in every forum; "the car I own is the best philosophy!!!" After that, If I have to prove that my car or my thought is the best: Condemn the ****tt outta others...
Forums are meant for intellectual brainstorming not verdicting, there isnt any achievement in having the last word or one doesnt lower his profile by agreeing to some one who makes more sense.

Nice post Ananth, appreciate the crux of it highly.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

Naturally, I was obligated to post a reply:

************************************************** ***

This is what I, & because of me, Team-BHP get for sharing what we know in a public forum.

We need to make Team-BHP exclusive like Macdizzy & RDDreams.com especially after the Pulsarian Report.

Ananth

Very matter-of-fact reply that you posted, Ananth.

Reg. your observation - closing ranks and making this forum exclusive is a very instinctive reaction, because it is human nature to shut yourself out from criticism.

I think we should show the maturity to accept the fact that people will read and probably criticize what we talk about here. However, there may be an equal (or more) number of people whose reaction to this forum is positive - we may never get to know that, because people are generally more vocal when making critical comments.

The fact that a few members of a forum or group that is devoted exclusively to one vehicle dont seem to like what we say shouldnt effect the way we function. Such forums are likely to be populated by people who will have a one-sided view as they look at the world through Scorpio-tinted or ****-tinted glasses.

The fact that we get discussed there, and the fact that their members visit this forum are good enough reasons to keep this forum open. There is no need to fear criticism as long as we are clear in our mind about what we do.

[amit]

The guy there was making fun of Honda VTEC's and Hyundai Accent's because in UK/Europe these cars are considered basic cars. Of i agree with him. His logic is only cars that are acceptable in UK/Europe are good cars. Fine. Maybe he should take his Scorpio to Germany and see what reactions his "super car" gets there. At least Honda and Hyundai sell a few hundred thousand units in Europe, how many units does M&M sell in Europe?

[v1p3r]

This is your "I heard it in phoren so it's true" fixation... the Vtec engine design is highly respected by everyone, and Tiff Needell called it "infamous" and "two engines in one". The Hyundais are now almost as good as Toyotas in the US of A.

Obviously they would check out a Scorpio. Yaar, if you drive a Ferrari day in and day out, you'd naturally check out a Premier Padmini, because it's a rarity to you. Ain't never seen one...

I find it hard to believe that these Scorpio egroupies are educated and mature individuals. It is obvious they have preconceived notions of vehicles and people, which TBHP should, frankly, care two hoots for...

PS. If Mr S Singh would be so lucky to drive a grandpa car like the Honda S2000 Vtec...

[Deeps]

Well done for standing up for team-bhp, ananth. And the Singh person seems to be one of those with the mentality of the "kid with 800 against Ferrari" considering wht kind of ridiculous arguments he puts forward to justify that his opinions (abt the Scorpio) are superior to those of Bhpians' (about Vtec and Accent). As Steeroid said, a public froum such as this is prone to attacks/criticism from others but the reason why such a forum exists is to spread knowledge among the public and making it exclusive will just undermine our cause.

[ananthkamath]

Mr. Singh subsequently justified his slab-sided remarks by implying he's the court jester of the Scorpio group. D-Uh, that explains everything!

viper you took the words right out of my mouth when you said "Ain't never seen one". Sheer curiosity is perhaps what made Mr. Singh's relatives check out the Scorpio. Interestingly, he fails (or maybe conveniently forgets) to let us know what those relatives thought of the car! Mr. Singh I know you are reading this. Maybe you care to post a reply?

Lets not focus on what Mr.Singh said, cause he really might have been joking.

I now realize that single car forums like these contain people who will savagely defend their make of car without reason or provocation.

The point of my post was to make them aware that we were only trying to help better their driving experience. If that's uncalled for, then fine, I have a thousand other projects to worry about.

Ananth

[GTO]

Just the statements made by some members of the Scorpio board show the limited thinking and scope of its community. If anything, I am glad they are not part of this community.

To make such derogatory statements without a sound base only highlights the plastic and elitist attitude of these chaps who snub Vtecs and Accents just because they overheard some white boys doing so at a stag bar.

If they should be reading this, some free advice : Think from the right end of your bodies.

GTO

[veyron1]

okay, looking at that "yahoo.." excerpt actually made me smile a little; those dialogues are self-explanatory of the nature of their poster(s)...

guys, forget those people, and let's get on with our tbhp lives...

[iraghava]

Originally Posted by GTO

If they should be reading this, some free advice : Think from the right end of your bodies.
GTO

HAHAHAHAHAHA Wonderfully put GTO !

But gotta agree with you all the statements seems childish at times. But we gotta accept the fact that since they are owners they will be ferociously protective of their choices, most human beings would be atleast till the time they actually own the automobile. 99% of people I have met don't accept that their car has any shortcomings. Very few people actually will stand up and acknowledge the faults/shortcomings of their cars while they still own the car.

But the way they chose to respond and demean TBHP members is just shameful.

And Mr. Singh being the Court Jester: DUDE GET A LIFE

[ananthkamath]

Some of the replies after I made my post:
************************************************** *****

>Atanu Mondal

Very well said Singh.. My first driving experience was on this truck.. Never once I felt I am out of control.. The complaints come from people who have used a road hugging vehicles before... .. and those who forgot their school physics lessons on banking of road, angular momentum and speed )


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Ghanashyam S

Sumit, dont be dejected- be a proud owner..you can
drive it gracefully in blore traffic..yesterday, i
dropped a couple to a nearby voooondai service point
whose super Accent was floating in floods..) 3
cheers to the truck..

--- Sumit wrote:

> I am a "to-be" owner - was almost choked to death
> after reading the thread....I believe the only way I
> would feel better is to get the truck delivered
> ASAP.
************************************************** ***

Need any of us say another word?

[shuvc]

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

I now realize that single car forums like these contain people who will savagely defend their make of car without reason or provocation.

Just so that one bad apple doesn't spoil the others ..
I'd like to mention here , that my experience with the Indica Users yahoo group has been lovely .. very mature and open minded people in that group ..

[haryan]

welll .
these kind of statements show how immature these guys are ... their comments are very uncouth and bizzare ..
People buy cars which suits their daily transport needs ..
Scorpio has its Advantages and Many Disadvantages also .. So as Hyundai and Honda... But people buy their choice ... So just because somebody doesnt buy a car of your choice doesnt mean that they are Illiterate and have no knowledge about Automobiles ...
My personal Suggestion : GROW UP DUDES , driving a Scorpio doesnt make you Giants or Educated or highly knowledgable about Automobiles

[amit]

And I thought such comments can only be read on the Indiacar message board.