[Samurai]

Originally Posted by carboy

It's all relative. And pay doesn't depend only on skill. It depends on demand and supply. And skill is one of the things which is a factor in supply and demand.

There is lot more demand for maids than drivers. I know lots of people who are looking for maids and can't get them. I don't have to go far, my parents are in that situation. My in-laws are in that situation. And neither of them need drivers. Very difficult to get maids for independent houses and in small towns and villages these days. Lot easier in flats and large cities.

Originally Posted by carboy

If enough of them do it to equal the no of maids, then probably their pay will equal that of maids. Considering they are paid more for job which takes less manual effort, it's quite obvious, not enough of them are doing it.

It is obvious you haven't studied this matter enough. But as an corporate employer, I have. In our country, we don't have the concept of dignity of labour. Instead we have the class system, some jobs are considered superior, while some are considered inferior. Somehow, physical labour is considered inferior compared to desk job.

Therefore, people doing physical labour are often paid less and respected even less. As a result there is a massive scarcity of workers of manual labour. People who traditionally employed themselves in physical labour don't want to do it anymore. Instead they are joining factories, becoming drivers, courier boys and what not. This is a social problem, and not a question of supply and demand. Even the people who want a maid 10 times badly than a driver, will not pay a maid higher than the driver. My company handyman is a skilled electrician as well as plumber, and he does all kind of odd jobs around the company. So I pay him quite well. But a driver who would only be a glorified seat warmer most of the day would demand a bigger pay than my handyman. Therefore, I haven't bothered hiring a company driver, although many drivers have approached me for the position.

Similarly, when I advertise for a clerk or receptionist position, I get boat load of applications. But for a janitor's position, I wouldn't get more than 1 application a week. The social aspect totally overcomes demand and supply here.

Originally Posted by carboy

Also, it doesn't require a 10 day course to become a maid.

That is correct. It takes longer to train a maid to do a good job, and even longer for them to develop the stamina for that job. I can easily do the function of the driver, but to do a maid's job, I'll need a day just to recover from the exhaustion.

Originally Posted by carboy

I am still missing the point.

I can only take you until the water, rest you have to figure out.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by Samurai

There is lot more demand for maids than drivers.

If, in spite of that, drivers get paid more that means that there are less drivers available than maids.

Originally Posted by Samurai

It is obvious you haven't studied this matter enough.

It's well studied. Pay depends on demand and supply. One of the factors influencing demand & supply is skill. The other factors you mention also influence supply and demand. But in the end it's supply and demand.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Somehow, physical labour is considered inferior compared to desk job.

And a driver's job is consider inferiored to a desk job. People who work in desk jobs feel driver's should clean their workplace. While they don't need to. They feel they deserve paid leave, medical leave, bonus, PF and notice period. And they feel driver's don't. This also may be a social problem.

My opinion is no one 'deserves' anything. You get what the market thinks you are worth at that point in time. This may be caused by a variety of factors.

Originally Posted by Samurai

I can easily do the function of the driver, but to do a maid's job, I'll need a day just to recover from the exhaustion.

Then as per your logic, your maid should be paid more than you or atleast as much as you. She can't do your job. You can't do her job.
And the driver should probably get paid less than both of you.

But luckily for you, me and the driver, that's not how it is :-)

[Tejas@perioimpl]

Originally Posted by carboy

Do you sweep under your desk and the area around it at work? Do you wash windows if your work desk is near or window or you are in a window office?

Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl

Carboy, your examples are not valid in this case. You cannot compare your job to your drivers job.

Originally Posted by carboy

Why not?

Ok, let me try to use your example to explain.

The driver's job is to drive the car as ours is to work on the computer as per your example. The driver drives the car on the road as we work in the office.

Now, i'm not asking the driver to clean the road, as you are not expected to sweep your office. But yes, if there is a layer of dust on your computer screen, won't you take a tissue to wipe it? Then why can't the driver do that to the car that he drives?

And no one is enforcing the drivers to clean the cars. Every employer has his set criteria. You can agree or not. I know drivers who also run errands like picking up groceries, delivering gifts during the festive season, etc. So what's the harm in that if it's pre agreed?

Another point was about leaves for the driver. No one is denying paid leave. But that comes after a reasonable time frame on the job. In my book it's one year. I'm not going to employ a driver who asks for a one month paid leave after 2-3 months on a job. In the office when we take leaves, we come back on time. Most of these drivers and maids sometimes double their leave period without notice or change their jobs on a whim. Do we do that? Does a desk job guy go to his employer and say "i'm not coming from tomorrow, pay me me my dues till date?" No. Thus, i said it's not a right example to compare a desk job to the driver's job.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl

Ok, let me try to use your example to explain.

The driver's job is to drive the car as ours is to work on the computer as per your example. The driver drives the car on the road as we work in the office.

Now, i'm not asking the driver to clean the road, as you are not expected to sweep your office. But yes, if there is a layer of dust on your computer screen, won't you take a tissue to wipe it? Then why can't the driver do that to the car that he drives?

I am not asking the desk job guy to clean the full office. I am comparing a driver's car to an employee's cubicle/room. A more apt comparison than the monitor, I think. A monitor can be compared to the car's steering wheel or may be the window which obstructs his view. I am sure he uses the wiper when necessary.

Also, I wouldn't think it wrong of an employer to ask his employee to clean his cubicle/room as long as it was agreed before hand. And I wouldn't also think it wrong of the employee to refuse the job if the employer has put this condition. Just like some driver's do.

Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl

And no one is enforcing the drivers to clean the cars. Every employer has his set criteria. You can agree or not. I know drivers who also run errands like picking up groceries, delivering gifts during the festive season, etc. So what's the harm in that if it's pre agreed?

Absolutely. I fully agree with you on this - I wrote that in my first post - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ml#post3089456

Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl

Another point was about leaves for the driver. No one is denying paid leave. But that comes after a reasonable time frame on the job. In my book it's one year.

In offices, it is typically accrued for those who aren't temps. i.e. if your annual leave is 12 days, 1 day of leave gets accrued after every month of work.

But I am not saying this should be the case for drivers. If you can hire a driver with a contract that he shouldn't take a single day of leave in the year, good for you. Likewise, if he can get a contract which says he gets 2 days of paid leave for everyday he works, good for him.

My point was that there was nothing wrong in driver's asking for these things - just like there is nothing wrong in you not wanting to hire a driver who wants these things.

[Tejas@perioimpl]

Originally Posted by carboy

If you can hire a driver with a contract that he shouldn't take a single day of leave in the year, good for you. Likewise, if he can get a contract which says he gets 2 days of paid leave for everyday he works, good for him.

My point was that there was nothing wrong in driver's asking for these things - just like there is nothing wrong in you not wanting to hire a driver who wants these things.

Where did i say i will not give my drivers any paid leave?

Look at my post :

Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl

- need one month's pay in diwali as bonus compulsory ( diwali is just a couple of months away now)

My point was i'm not giving a month leave or full bonuses after 2 months on the job.

Then some gentleman justified that and equated it to a sign on bonus that companies employ to attract highly qualified employees.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl

Where did i say i will not give my drivers any paid leave?

I think you are misunderstanding me. I didn't say that you said that.

I am saying it's not wrong for you to say that if you want to. And it's also not wrong for a driver to ask for 2 days paid leave for every working day.

Both of you are entering into a contract. Both of you should enter into it only if the terms are suitable for both of you

Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl

Then some gentleman justified that and equated it to a sign on bonus that companies employ to attract highly qualified employees.

The company is not paying them a sign on bonus just because they are highly qualified. The company is paying them a sign on bonus because they feel if they don't some other company will and they won't get the employee they want.

Someone may have done 2 post doctoral studies in an obscure field nobody is interested in. He is also highly qualified. But he may not get the same sign on bonus.

In the end it's supply and demand and there are tons of factors which affect supply and demand.

A highly skilled petromax lamp repairer may get paid less than a driver - that's just how it is.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by carboy

Then as per your logic, your maid should be paid more than you or atleast as much as you. She can't do your job. You can't do her job.
And the driver should probably get paid less than both of you.

That is your logic, not mine. I can do a maid's job when she takes days off, but I'll be quite tired after that.

In blue collar jobs, salary is not based on demand and supply in India.

Even though drivers are in much higher supply than domestic maids, drivers still command higher salary. Heck, plumbers make less than drivers in this country, despite in higher demand than drivers and have higher skill than drivers.

This is not the case where there is dignity of labour. Check how much plumbers make in USA, read the last para in this link.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by Samurai

That is your logic, not mine. I can do a maid's job when she takes days off, but I'll be quite tired after that.

You put forth the logic that one of the reasons maids deserve a better pay than drivers is because ' I can easily do the function of the driver, but to do a maid's job, I'll need a day just to recover from the exhaustion.'

Originally Posted by Samurai

In blue collar jobs, salary is not based on demand and supply in India.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. It's a pretty well established theory that all salaries are based on demand and supply (in the absence of unions and govt jobs ). If you are claiming it's not true, you need to provide some data to back it up.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Even though drivers are in much higher supply than domestic maids, drivers still command higher salary.

First of all, I don't believe the premise that drivers are in higher supply than maids. If I call my watchman today & ask to send a maid - he will send me 5 in a couple of hours - if I ask him for a driver - he will send me two or three in a week. I had experienced this first hand a few times. Out of the three, one had a license, but didn't know to drive. One knew to drive, but didn't have a license and said license isn't important.
I think I stopped asking the watchman after - I asked other drivers in the building, I asked friend's drivers, my company driver's etc. Even then I very rarely used to get 2-3 a week (but atleast they were actual drivers).

Other than that, Demand and supply is not just raw numbers available - i.e. 5 drivers available & 4 maids available - hence conclude that drivers are in higher supply.

Demand and supply has a variety of factors influencing
- How many drivers are needed
- How many are available
- How difficult is to learn the job
- How much skill is required
- How boring is it
- How much effort does it require
etc.

All these factors influence the demand and supply and hence influence the salary.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Heck, plumbers make less than drivers in this country, despite in higher demand than drivers and have higher skill than drivers.

I don't see how this proves your point.

Originally Posted by Samurai

This is not the case where there is dignity of labour. Check how much plumbers make in USA, read the last para in this link.

Again, I don't at all see the relevance of this. Why do you keep bringing plumbers salary in the USA all the time - I really don't see what this has to do with the discussion at hand.

I have said time and again that just because a job requires more skill doesn't mean it will get paid more. Or that a job causes more exhaustion, it will paid more.

Plus plumbing in the USA isn't a true free market - it's a highly regulated market (some even say cartelized) in a lot of states. In many states, you are required by law to first get a apprentice plumber's license - you can do that only if you are 21 and above. Then work under a licensed plumber for 5 years or so. Then you apply for your own plumber's license.

Anyway, I am out of this argument - it's not leading anywhere.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by carboy

First of all, I don't believe the premise that drivers are in higher supply than maids. If I call my watchman today & ask to send a maid - he will send me 5 in a couple of hours - if I ask him for a driver - he will send me two or three in a week. I had experienced this first hand a few times.

That is because your exposure is limited to only cities.

Remember this?
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Originally Posted by Samurai

Very difficult to get maids for independent houses and in small towns and villages these days. Lot easier in flats and large cities.

Also, unlike you I am a corporate employer, I hire blue/white collar employees regularly, therefore I have to go with my hiring experience. There are many other aspects to employment other than the simple demand & supply logic. One only discovers that by seeing it first hand.

Originally Posted by carboy

Again, I don't at all see the relevance of this. Why do you keep bringing plumbers salary in the USA all the time - I really don't see what this has to do with the discussion at hand.

Just a vain attempt to show you that demand & supply logic holds good in countries that have dignity of labour.

Originally Posted by carboy

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. It's a pretty well established theory that all salaries are based on demand and supply (in the absence of unions and govt jobs ). If you are claiming it's not true, you need to provide some data to back it up.

As I said before, I can only take you till the water. Rest is up to you. I have no intense desire to prove anything to you.

[mayankjha1806]

My experience in hiring drivers.

Whenever i have asked for driver, i have got reasonable inquiries, most have DL and most (~8/10) have moved from rural Karnataka to Bangalore recently and are not fluent in English/Hindi hence they get a senior seasoned Bangalore driver with them, and they are ready for work for 30-40% lower salary then some other drivers who have been in Bangalore for long (and are more polished and sophisticated).

I agree on Social standing, but my believe is it is not sufficient to continue to be jobless for long periods of time. Sooner or later the economic factors will start pushing them to either settle for less salaries, or (if they cannot do that) move to a different city/town where they believe the drivers are in shortage, thereby getting higher salaries.

In my view that is exactly what is happening in KA/Bangalore. Maybe there is abundance of Driver supply in rest of KA, and due to demand being low many are jobless. Economic factors are forcing them to either lower the price or move to a different market that seemingly has shortage of drivers and is ready to pay a premium.

At this moment it seems most are choosing the second option of moving to a different city, so as they continue to command premium because of shortage.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by mayankjha1806

In my view that is exactly what is happening in KA/Bangalore. Maybe there is abundance of Driver supply in rest of KA, and due to demand being low many are jobless.

You are right. In Manipal, 80% houses on my street have a car, but none have hired a driver. But almost everybody has a live-in or part-time maid. While in Bangalore, many of my neighbours have drivers, even for cars like Santro and Figo.

[an_and]

Guys,

A quick question, I have a driver whom I pay for 12 hours plus Rs. 30 as overtime per hour. Now, his job is to drive me to office which is 50+ kms one way and drive me back. Out of office drives are hardly there, and he sits idle most of the time. In addition to this, I also pay for his breakfast and lunch.

Now how exactly do I calculate and pay for Overtime. For eg. his duty is from 7 am to 7pm, now do I calculate overtime hours in a week and then pay, which means i add all the minutes of OT in the week, or do I calculate this on a daily basis.

[an_and]

Originally Posted by an_and

Guys,

A quick question, I have a driver whom I pay for 12 hours plus Rs. 30 as overtime per hour. Now, his job is to drive me to office which is 50+ kms one way and drive me back. Out of office drives are hardly there, and he sits idle most of the time. In addition to this, I also pay for his breakfast and lunch.

Now how exactly do I calculate and pay for Overtime. For eg. his duty is from 7 am to 7pm, now do I calculate overtime hours in a week and then pay, which means i add all the minutes of OT in the week, or do I calculate this on a daily basis.

Just to add to this, my question is what to do in case of fractions. For eg if duty is from 7 to 7 and we return home as follows
mon 8.05 Ot 65 min
Tue 7:10 OT 10 min
Wed 6:30
Thurs 7:15 OT 15 min
Fri 8:30 OT 90 min
Sat 6:00

If I am paying OT on Sat how much should I pay?

[AJo]

I am planning to hire a driver in Pune. Typical work hours - 8.30am to 7.30pm (6 days a week). Driving distance - 40Km max per day.


I talked to one person - who has about 3-4 yrs experience & he demanded 12k per month!! Sounds rather expensive or is this the norm?

Any pointers on average salaries in Pune for drivers?

AJ

[PPS]

Originally Posted by AJo

I talked to one person - who has about 3-4 yrs experience & he demanded 12k per month!! Sounds rather expensive or is this the norm?

I pay my driver who has more than 10yrs of experience 11k per month + overtime!

Its very difficult to find a good driver here in Mumbai.
My current driver invariably ends up putting the car in a pothole inspite of using the same stretch of road everyday. I do not know if its bad eyesight or bad judgment!
And on the traffic choked highway he's always in the right most lane enjoying the view on the left where all cars are passing by!