[avira_tk]

I think the roads in Kerala are much better than most other states, I'm not referring to the NH, which is crap, crowded, overpriced and basically a payback for all the cronies who funded the elections. It makes NICE road look good by comparison, the idiots complaining about communism suddenly went silent when the road was completed, high tolls, low speeds and traffic lights, if communism is against all this, as a country we should give it a try.The road taxes that are collected need to be used for roads, the other system involved a payout based on fuel sales(from the central pool) Kerala used to receive nearly twice as much as Karnataka and Tamil Nadu. Karnataka has really terrible roads once you leave the NH, even Bangalore has terrible roads for most part.

Politics is not the reason we have narrow roads, it's because of population density, many a back road you get on is smooth, clearly marked and really good to drive on. The taxes were much lower on cars until very recently and the roads are good, considering that the state receives 100 inches of rain a year, its difficult to maintain the roads. In case anyone is curious, for local body managed roads, enabling costs are roughly 80% of the budgeted amount.

I don't know how BMW and MPI are relevant to this discussion, as for funds from abroad, what's wrong with working overseas for a better life? What is the alternative? riot, loot and destroy for government sector reservations like certain parts of India have seen with so called proud martial people(who want handouts).

PS: The OP photo is good reason to buy a crossover, low slung cars won't cut it once you get off the highway.

[pkk077]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

On a related note, better roads also mean less fuel sales.

No. Good roads also means more car sales. Just to take it to a little extreme, if every road is dug up in KL, would they sell more fuel or less?

[Adam]

Voted No !
Sad part is the substandard quality of road construction, which wont even last a monsoon season. My house in Kerala is bit far from NH, but the road was overall in good condition though being narrow, and it was like that for many years without requiring any major repair. Then came some guy who took the tender for widening the road and re-tarring the same, Guess what , the road which didn't had much issue in the first place start developing huge potholes in the very next year. This is an example where our Road tax just went directly into contractors pocket.

After all these due to many protest and noises over years Govt decide to totally rebuild and widen entire 60 Kms stretch of road in two phases over 2-3 years. Guess what, first phase was completed in 2 Years, and next stretch is still lying the same after over 7 years. May be Govt has an idea that People shouldn't get used to good roads, as its a luxury!! so they keep some huge potholes unattended for years , just to remind us (Common Man) that this is what we deserves and shouldn't get used to any good facilities. !

[bejoy]

As others have pointed out, the road tax is not utilized for the upkeep of roads. It is just a revenue mechanism for the government. For this very reason, the yearly payment of road tax was made "Life time" tax.

Originally Posted by govindremesh

In the specific case of Kerala, we are famous for executing road development projects that run into decades (Alapuzha bypass took 40 years to complete!), or performing a shoddy job (The brand new Palarivattom flyover is being rebuilt in Kochi).

True, the completion of Alappuzha bypass is a record of sorts. But I would also give credit to the state govt for keeping it toll free, though it is part of NH66 and Union govt shared the cost.

[.HEM]

I live close to the Highway and I know the TOLL is legitimate daylight robbery. The first toll that came on the Highway closer to my home is less than 7 kilometres from my home and I have the privilege of availing the local pass. This highway was upgraded in 2002-2003 and the toll is collected since then. AFAIK - The toll is for building the fresh road and maintaining it. The toll collected is always going high, I pay the toll for 70kms stretch, The road wa built only once and then it will only be maintained.

My Doubts:
1. Is the company that built the road still recovering its initial cost of building the road even after 18 years?
2. If they have recovered the cost and it is only maintaining the road, the toll should obviously reduced by half, if I'm not wrong!
3. How the citizen will know the cost involved in building and maintaining if it is not displayed publicly
4. why there is no system in place that reduced the toll if the road is bad, instead of someone filing a court case and the toll by court.

too many questions and no answers

[srishiva]

Do we need a poll for this

I think the issue is no participation for public in most of the things. Local populace should be able to protest and we should have a system that listens to them. Most people dont care and authorities too will not care. Added to that most decisions are centralized. We dont even know who to complain.

Since most of toll roads are NH, states should come up with strict laws within their boundaries to stop toll when roads are getting repaired or deteriorating. NHAI cant decide about this.

[anandhsub]

I don't think any state calls it road tax these days. Mostly referred to as registration charges. This is just a tax that people who can afford to buy a car pay to even out the wealth gap.

Whether a state gives good roads or not is a completely different issue based on their own priorities. Some states prioritise good roads for eg. TN where even MDRs are mostly butter smooth let alone SHs while for others like KA or MH it is down the priority list.

However given tolls are collected solely for the purpose of building the road there is no way it should be collected if the roads are bad. The recent judgement on the Chennai- Ranipet stretch is a good step in this regard.

[Turrrb0]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

Things would have been slightly better had they not chased away BMW.

Curious as to what the story behind this is.. Was BMW originally planning to set up its assembly plant in KL?

[streetfighter]

Last Saturday, while travelling to Pune from Mumbai via Expressway (the total toll is Rs 270), due to some ongoing construction, all the vehicles were asked to stop just before the ghat section. It was roughly 20-25mins dead stop for all vehicles which caused a huge traffic pile up and jam. All this after paying the toll. Further, at many places, one lane of the expressway is kinda permanently closed for repairs; which makes me think, is the high toll justified?
Adding to the woes is there is no surveillance or patrolling for vehicles flouting norms, like slow moving cars on the right-most lane, Heavy vehicles on the right-most lane. I do find police personnel in between, but their job has been to catch taxi drivers and collect fine (or bribe) for ferrying passengers illegally. So I feel the toll is unjustified.

Add to the woes, I saw a couple of articles related to fastag/toll collection...
VIPs do not have to pay toll
Toll should be exempted due to fastag issues

[Maverick1977]

I don't know why, but I am seeing a lot of political undertones in this thread, especially because we are discussing a state where elections are going to happen very shortly and one National Party is trying their best to conquer the state. If that is not the case, then I apologise even before I share my driving experiences.
I had driven in Kerala a few years back and came super impressed with the roads infrastructure. The best part was in a trip of close to 800 km, I didn't pay any toll. Being from Mumbai, Maharashtra where you are subjected to pay toll even if you want to leave the city, this came as a very pleasant surprise. I also found majority of the roads in acceptably good condition.
Road tax is a very debatable topic and most will agree that we are paying the tax and not getting what we should get as a matter of the same - Good Roads.
However, my biggest grouse is when you are forced to pay the toll in spite of the roads being in a deplorable condition. I had a big argument with the toll collectors at Thane in 2019 as the roads didn't exist. I was immediately surrounded by goons and almost threatened to pay. Unfortunately not a single car owner stopped to support me.
Will you stop and intervene if you see a fellow car owner fighting for his rights?

[Hayek]

Voted Yes!!!! Why? The fact is that there are no taxes (barring the Health and Education Cess) which are earmarked for specific purposes. You may pay road tax or excise duty or state VAT on fuels, or GST and cess on Cars - but all the money goes into the Consolidated Fund of either the Central Government or the State Government.

Let’s ignore FY21 - which was an “abnormal” Covid affected year, and look at estimates for a more “normal” FY22. The Central Government’s total expenditures are budgeted at ₹ 34.8 trillion (or lakh crores if you prefer). Of this, ₹ 15.4 trillion (just 44%) is to be funded through the Central Government’s tax revenue, another ₹ 4 trillion through non tax revenue and other receipts (largely things like Privatisation and Telecom License auctions, which are very uncertain) and ₹15 trillion (43%) through borrowing.

Irrespective of my views about the value of this spending or the competence of the government, the fact is that the spending is already baked in - and we are in the best case, going to borrow 43% of what we are going to spend. I don’t see any scope whatsoever to reduce taxes in the near term - in fact, I was pleasantly surprised that taxes were not hiked further (though it could well come half way through the year).

So let’s ignore what happens in the US or EU or some other country - the fact is that we are already living beyond our means, and the government has no choice but to collect every ounce of tax revenue it can.

As for State Budgets, lots of the States are worse off than the centre (for one, they can’t print money) - and they have no choice but to tax People Like Us either.

[Actuator]

A judicial directive is one thing, its effective implementation is another story altogether!

Poorly engineered and lackadaisically maintained roads are dotted by the ubiquitous toll-booths which unfailingly levy a sizeable charge irrespective of whether the road you traversed on was motorable or not!

There is a stark difference in the quality of roadways across different states owing to a multitude of contractors employing their own yardstick of what roads they adjudge to be of passable quality and what degree of scrutiny is bestowed upon the project.

The people's representatives have given themselves and an elite few, a free pass from the troubles of being bothered by the toll-booth. For the commonfolk, there's a mandatory RFID sticker emblazoned on the windshield which will deduct the requisite amounts from your pre-filled wallet because revenue streams are important, ethical or not.

There is no transparency in determining the time period of toll-collection and under which circumstances should the operator cease to collect this involuntary levy which results in surplus collections to the tune of thousands of crores which are gleefully pocketed by the nefarious companies in charge of operating these notorious toll-booths.

There needs to be a mechanism in place which subjects the payment of toll tax to certain stringent conditions vis-a-vis the motorability of the road, its maintenance and the provision of allied facilities in tune with the stipulated norms. Presently, it is a loathsome levy which is entirely avoidable at least in a lot of cases where the roads are negligently maintained or worse still, non-existent.

[Tucker48]

Voted Yes!
With regards to road tax, it's not only for the roads we drive on, it's for all the roads. Billions are being spent to construct state of the art bridges and tunnels. Some roads are bad others are good. Moreover, I don't agree that Pune Satara road is bad. It's just average, as I easily maintained speeds of 80-100 kmph for most part of the stretch(a month ago). I was driving my brother's nexon but I'm pretty sure that I would have maintained the same speeds in my Corolla Altis.
With regards to toll tax, No we should not pay toll tax or pay only part of it for not so good roads. Yes the toll on Pune Satara should be decreased for not providing butter smooth road.
But as others pointed out, there is no compulsion on using the money collected through road taxes/toll tax to be spent on that particular road or any road and under construction Manali-Leh all weather road is an example for that.
IMO, there should not be any road tax, all highways (national & state) should be toll roads, toll shall also be collected from 2 wheelers as well and the govt should lay at least 2 lanes(bike lanes) dedicated to 2 wheelers. Well, it's just my opinion.

[v1p3r]

Voted no. The question is whether we should pay for bad road. Why should we pay anything for a faulty/incomplete product? Do you remember the last time you paid for a full masala dosa but the person served you raw batter with onions and potatoes?

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Questioning the premise of a tax is questioning our social contract and democracy itself. I won't go much deeper on that as I want to stick to the forum rules.

The problem is that the government doesn't seem to understand the basic social contract - 'we pay for services that you provide'. The govt should be a service provider instead of engaging in demagoguery. What happens as a result is brain drain - we saw it during the ridiculous 1970s 97% taxation rate with no growth, and we'll see it now.

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

If you don't, the State will cease to exist. Road Tax, Alcohol, Tourism, Funds from abroad are the main sources of income for this communist state. Things would have been slightly better had they not chased away BMW. We all know how the State likes to operate. The road tax you pay is also needed to keep Meat Products of India afloat.

Yeah buddy, Kerala's revenue deficit is 2% of sGDP. For India overall, it is 3.27%. By that measure alone, Kerala is far better run that the rest of the country. Add to that the fact that on most HDIs, KL is on par with developed nations, and you start to wonder what on earth the rest of us pay taxes for. Let's not forget that the union govt still owes KL so much GST money that KL is now borrowing at ~9%. And thank god there is one major state in which something like MPI can still exist.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

I don't know how BMW and MPI are relevant to this discussion, as for funds from abroad, what's wrong with working overseas for a better life? What is the alternative? riot, loot and destroy for government sector reservations like certain parts of India have seen with so called proud martial people(who want handouts).

Interesting to note that people who live abroad denigrate remittances.

[govindremesh]

Originally Posted by moralfibre

EDIT: I'll be surprised if I see even a single bhpian voting "Yes" on this poll

T-BHP is full of surprises, if you see the poll results now

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

On a related note, better roads also mean less fuel sales. With fuel taxation being the golden goose for all govt, any dip in sales means the squeeze has to happen somewhere else. End of the day the tax paying public is in one soup or the another.

Also as road tax payers, we all would be living in a fool's paradise if we believe the road tax collected is only utilized for road infra development.

To add, if we bring in corruption to this mix, constructing a good quality road might mean that our babus won't be able to pocket the commission that's generated from these road laying projects.
Unrelated, but it's not that good quality roads are not being constructed in the state. A road development project funded by world bank and executed by a Malaysian JV company ended badly

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

If you don't, the State will cease to exist. Road Tax, Alcohol, Tourism, Funds from abroad are the main sources of income for this communist state........

.....Not only have roads been bad, there is no room to build a new road too. Kerala State is saturated. You need an elevated highway that runs right from Trivandrum to Kasargod, as there is no space on the ground.

What you say about the state is unfortunately true, but the BMW story has more that what we hear, apparently!

Originally Posted by Turrrb0

Curious as to what the story behind this is.. Was BMW originally planning to set up its assembly plant in KL?

The popular story is that BMW was going to setup a plant in Kochi and had finalized plans, but the day the senior executives of BMW arrived to meet the government officials, there was a hartal in the state. Some versions go on to state that the protesters smashed the cars that these executives were travelling in. The executives, seeing the hostile business environment, fled to Tamil Nadu and setup the plant.
The apparent real reason though is that TN was better equipped for hosting a BMW plant than Kerala was, at-least as per this link and hence it was a logical business decision to setup the plant in TN.

Originally Posted by Hayek

So let’s ignore what happens in the US or EU or some other country - the fact is that we are already living beyond our means, and the government has no choice but to collect every ounce of tax revenue it can.
As for State Budgets, lots of the States are worse off than the centre (for one, they can’t print money) - and they have no choice but to tax People Like Us either.

I understand your point, but I also wonder: Why do states not construct concrete roads that will stand the test of time? It's often noticed that roads are constructed well, get destroyed in rains, are patched and the cycle repeats every year till the point where the patchworks can no longer save the road. I do not have the data, but I feel the initial premium of constructing concrete roads will pay back in due time, compared to reconstructing tar roads multiple times. It's the taxpayers money at the end of the day and surely, it could be utilized in a better way!

Originally Posted by binand

What I'd like to see is scrapping the 15-year LTT policy; instead an annual (or even shorter duration) taxation in place. This is already in place for CV owners I believe; need this for private vehicle owners too.

Agreed. But again, the annual payment of taxes could be used against the consumers , with governments citing "lack of funds" as an excuse for the poor condition of roads.

Originally Posted by libranof1987

Should we be paying toll for the roads we use, Maybe/Sure.
Should we be paying toll on top of the already high road tax, Hell no.

This is where there's a grey area- Why do we pay tolls and road tax? With implementation of FasTag, is it possible to reduce road tax and install toll booths on major stretches of road? Or will that create more bottlenecks and corruption?