[Zignor]

Originally Posted by MadinMumbai

We have the maximum number of road accidents in the world. Fat lot of good your honking is doing.[/b]

I love it when we discuss safety. There's a tag line in the oilfield "Planning first, safety is a desired outcome." No matter how many rules there are for pedestrians and vehicles, unless and until both parties involved aren't mature enough to follow them, nothing positive is going to happen.

I also notice that highways usually require less honking because of a semblance of lane discipline unless there's a truck doing 20-30kmph in the right lane. Most of the honking, for me atleast, starts with the sight of auto rickshaws and two wheelers. You see, most of the drivers in driving school aren't taught basics like lane discipline, using indicators and my personal favorite, not overtaking from the left. Not to mention, city bike riders are in a hurry to launch Chandrayaan 3, their launch pad being a busy cross section and the rocket being their own 2-wheelers. The lesser I say about auto rickshaws, the better it is. But let's just say, there's lesser honking South Mumbai side than the suburbs (Mumbaikars would agree).

Honking may not be a solution, no one said it is. But it's better than shouting abuses when someone has a near miss by swerving in your lane without indicating or looking in the rear view mirror. The solution to having safer roads is self discipline, education and proper training.

Honking may not be necessary either but every situation is different and should be considered based on the average traffic sense.

[parambyte]

Indians honk way too much yes it’s true. I think one can link it to our feudal social system and sense of entitlement where car ownership is a status symbol. “How dare you come in my way”.

I was in Manhattan, and the lanes inside are pretty Narrow (Pratt street, I think if I am not mistaken). The narrow lanes are one way. A pickup truck had stopped and was offloading goods at the grocery store (in the west, the driver offloads the goods, not a khalasi). There was a small pileup of vehicles behind him. And NO ONE HONKED. People respected the fact he was doing his job, and the entire line of Cadillacs and other cars waited patiently until he finished (which he did quickly too).

Driving on highways, I followed the speed limit diligently. Soon I noticed a train of vehicles behind me tailgating but NOT honking or lane jumping. I moved over into the next available turnout and they all quickly sped ahead, many with slightly higher than prescribed speeds. They wanted to overtake, but no lane jumping, no honking. (Of course many people will write in about seeing the opposite, but you cannot say this is NOT the normal behaviour is western countries).

It’s a social thing. People can try and link it to “effective laws” but you cannot dissociate social conditioning and entitlement of India’s upper classes. I have seen how people jump lanes, argue with traffic cops, slip in bribes, use wrong lanes to move ahead, speed up instead of slowing down when you are taking a U Turn or crossing the road etc.

And yes, every time on Indian Expressways, there is a (insert four letter word) driver who will keep flashing his xenon projector lamps from a kilometer away, insisting everyone move out of his way.

[Kols]

Originally Posted by condor

Dear MadinMumbai:

please get pedestrians off the road and on to the foot-path, make them cross the road at crossings, pls inculcate lane discipline and traffic sense amongst all drivers - especially the two wheelers, and I promise NOT to use the horn in the vehicle I am driving.

Thank you.

I beg to differ with this justification to honk:

1. There are hardly any usable foot-paths in our cities. Even when you find one, its easy to spot a car parked right right in the middle of it, OR a pav-bhaji vendor making a living on that piece of real estate. So a pedestrian-walking-on-the-road may not be a matter of choice you see. Also consider this - how noisy it would become if every pedestrian had a loud horn on his hand and honks every time he notices a car nuisance.

2. I too hate unruly drivers and anyone who doesn't follow lane discipline. But honking is not a targeted punishment. By honking you are basically doing a lot of collateral damage for no good.

I am an avid driver but I also walk a lot. Having experienced both sides of the situation, it makes you realize that we are a big nation fighting over limited resources especially in big cities. I think co-existing "peacefully" will do the trick

Cheers!

[Neeraj_S]

Originally Posted by MadinMumbai

Hahaha! The joke is really on us. Look at the argument guys defending honking are making.

And here we are. All well-meaning and good guys but a complete mess on the roads. Everyone who uses the horn under the garb of safety contributes to the nuisance. You are part of the problem. You are not above the problem looking down from some magical higher plane.

And for all making the safety arguments - We have the maximum number of road accidents in the world. Fat lot of good your honking is doing.

Okay. So, should we assume you never ever use the horn then ? I follow rules when driving on the road or crossing the roads. While walking no one has to press horn for me as I look before I walk and don't use my mobile while strolling on the roads. I almost hit a bike reversing my car from a parking spot because he was coming wrong side at high speed. Yes, I can be more careful. But isn't it all people who should follow the rules ? If they do, we will not make any "excuses". We are not looking down on anyone, but there is a small population of people following rules which are hopeful that others will follow and in that perfect world, horn will be sitting there without being pressed at all. We do have extremely large population, hence more cars/bikes/pedestrians and hence more accidents. The accidents which are avoided due to honking are not recorded anywhere, apart from our minds, are they ?

[MadinMumbai]

Originally Posted by Neeraj_S

We do have extremely large population, hence more cars/bikes/pedestrians and hence more accidents. The accidents which are avoided due to honking are not recorded anywhere, apart from our minds, are they ?

Two questions come to mind when I contemplate the safety argument being made:
1. How unsafe are our roads? From the number of times the horn in heard one might conclude that we are in some kind of warlike danger situation 24/7. Without the horn all of us would be dead.

2. Why aren’t horn makers getting Padamashiris and Bharat Ratnas? So many lives saved should merit some public recognition surely.

Jokes aside, a simple acknowledgment that honking contributes to the chaos is all that is needed to take the conversation forward. We could then have a conversation about what can be done instead of honking. That would be progressive. Instead there’s an avalanche of defensive comments.

Unfortunately defence of honking, with virtues of safety being bandied about, dodgy statistics of population numbers and vehicles per sq km, make me wonder if we are ready to accept our part in the chaos on the roads. And then there are many champions who have blamed their honking on pedestrians and cyclists forgetting that the moment they’re are out of the car they are also a pedestrian.

Safety is a valid reason to have a horn in the car. I will concede that. But we all know that the horn is used more often than not in anger/frustration.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by MadinMumbai

Two questions come to mind when I contemplate the safety argument being made:
1. How unsafe are our roads? From the number of times the horn in heard one might conclude that we are in some kind of warlike danger situation 24/7. Without the horn all of us would be dead.

2. Why aren’t horn makers getting Padamashiris and Bharat Ratnas? So many lives saved should merit some public recognition surely.

Apart from this rather provocative outlook of yours, where you constantly slam people who defend the use of horns, I agree with your point of view that people ought to regulate their use of horns.

However, to insist constantly that honking is a terrible thing, and that people in First World countries do not indulge in it, is counterproductive. I can bet that you yourself would not be able to drive more than a couple of km in most Indian cities without using the horn (if it is connected). Yes, I have also driven plenty of km in cities and on highways without the horn, but it makes life easier when one does use it judiciously.

(Oh yes, if I'm blowing the horn for more than 2 seconds, please understand that I am actually cursing the object of my honking in unprintable language).

[Neeraj_S]

Originally Posted by MadinMumbai

And then there are many champions who have blamed their honking on pedestrians and cyclists forgetting that the moment they’re are out of the car they are also a pedestrian.

But we all know that the horn is used more often than not in anger/frustration.

We are pedestrians outside our cars. But not all of us run along the roads with mobile on our ear without looking at oncoming vehicles. Some of us follow rules when driving, while riding and as pedestrians. We have basic sense and do our best so that no vehicle should need to honk because of us while we are walking. We are just trying to follow rules and be safe no matter if we are in a vehicle or on our two legs. So should others. A guy who runs across road without looking for traffic deserves to be blamed for putting his and others lives at danger and for the honking that follows as well.

Yes, we all hate excessive honking and people who honk for absolutely no reason. That does need to be fixed. We just don't agree that taking extreme step of making horn optional accessory is needed. Educating on correct usage ( when and why) of horn is the first step.

[KrisTvpm]

Have driven cars in some foreign countries, and somethings my onsite-colleague-cum-unofficial-driving-instructor "taught" me still hold on to me, and try to follow these to the T back home too:

• The onus is on me as a driver to maintain others' safety too, when I am on the roads. Blaring horns at blind curves/turns/even on straight roads/virtually everywhere -- indicates I'm trying to pass the responsibility of keeping others' safety to themselves

• When approaching chaurasas, slowdown/stop, scan and ensure no other vehicles/children/animals etc. are in the path & then proceed; don't just honk to "outsource" the responsibility to others and dart across

• Almost never use high-beam in city, except in very unlit lanes. If using high, switch to low immediately when any vehicle/pedestrian is spotted opposite

• Flashing the headlights is arrogant & demanding for rights by force - to be avoided at all costs. In many countries, flashing indicates "you take preference for right-of-way" contrary to "give me my undeserved right-of-way / get the heck outta my way" as in India

While diligently following the above rules in my driving, am at fault that when I see someone violating these, ego takes over and I won't oblige them! Trying to take it easy & let them have their way. As my better-half says you don't take them home, they forget what you did to them but if any harm ensues you will take it home for sure and you won't forget it for a long time!

[RedTerrano]

Dedicated to all those who are claiming honking is not really required on Indian roads.

https://youtu.be/pdQGoRDB7UA

[MadinMumbai]

How would the horn help in this situation? I suppose you are assuming that many vehicles did not honk. A horn in this situation is a placebo at best. In fact if I were to hazard a guess I would say the woman probably got spooked by horns and bolted across the road like a chicken.

Don't underestimate the power of a horn to stun and make people react irrationally.

[Neeraj_S]

Originally Posted by KrisTvpm

• The onus is on me as a driver to maintain others' safety too, when I am on the roads. Blaring horns at blind curves/turns/even on straight roads/virtually everywhere -- indicates I'm trying to pass the responsibility of keeping others' safety to themselves

[list]Flashing the headlights is arrogant & demanding for rights by force

While diligently following the above rules in my driving, am at fault that when I see someone violating these, ego takes over and I won't oblige them! Trying to take it easy & let them have their way.

Yes, driving a vehicle which has the potential to cause harm to others if not properly operated definitely makes you responsible.
Honking at blind turns and curves is not to pass responsibility to anyone, it is to indicate to others there is a vehicle they might not be able to see. In an ideal world they would assume there is a vehicle possibly coming and drive accordingly, but that happens less than we would expect.
If you are not supposed to flash lights and also not honk, how do you request for a pass from a slow moving vehicle in the right most lane ? Right most lanes are for overtaking. If someone is driving slowly in it we can and should ask them to move aside to allow vehicles to pass so a jam can be avoided. Would you say to follow him adding to slow moving traffic too or to overtake from left ?
As for you letting the person who breaks the rules have their way, you are actually not helping. This person will never know he is at fault and will continue to break them probably causing someone else's safety to be at risk. I understand it's not worth getting in trouble for small issues on roads as there are idiots who will make matters big. But, a simple honk to try to make them see they could be doing better does not seem like a big risk.
While you will most probably be good just avoiding all situations not all might be that lucky and considering you feel you are responsible for others safety why would you just let this slide ?

[kadanaJ]

Originally Posted by MadinMumbai

Jokes aside, a simple acknowledgment that honking contributes to the chaos is all that is needed to take the conversation forward. We could then have a conversation about what can be done instead of honking. That would be progressive. Instead there’s an avalanche of defensive comments.

Honking does NOT contribute to the chaos. Poor lane/driving discipline and lack of proper infrastructure are the causes of chaos. Honking is simply a symptom of the above problems.

Originally Posted by MadinMumbai

Unfortunately defence of honking, with virtues of safety being bandied about, dodgy statistics of population numbers and vehicles per sq km, make me wonder if we are ready to accept our part in the chaos on the roads. And then there are many champions who have blamed their honking on pedestrians and cyclists forgetting that the moment they’re are out of the car they are also a pedestrian.

Safety is a valid reason to have a horn in the car. I will concede that. But we all know that the horn is used more often than not in anger/frustration.

What about the statistics do you feel is dodgy? Why not quote some concrete data of your own, rather than put the other sides argument down by simply calling it "dodgy".

Also, I too am a pedestrian, but I take care to maintain a certain amount of situational awareness, and not block a car's right of way (maybe because I drive, I can feel empathy for car drivers which our general public do not).

Lastly, coming to safety, I already have a previous post stating reasons I had to honk on a single morning commute. But I'll add to that:

Was driving from a friend's house at 2am last night. Due to this thread sitting on my mind, I have actually been making concious efforts to honk less (that and I acknowledged that honking at 2am would disturb people living near by).

Two scooters were driving ahead of me, going at 20-30 side by side having a conversation with each other, while blocking an entire empty road.

I waited patiently. I did not honk. Eventually they ambled into the left lane. Seeing this opportunity, I shifted into 2nd gear and made an attempt to pass them in my right lane.

Half way through my overtake, the scooter guy in the right starts swerving into my lane, completely unaware he is barrelling into my car. Surprise, surprise! This man has removed the side-view mirrors from his scooter. He is also busy looking left because he is talking to his compatriot on the other scooter.

Almost caused an accident, and to avoid him, I almost hit the barrier dividing the road.

This entirely terrifying scenario could have been avoided if I just acknowledged that scooter drivers are idiots, and that for your own safety, until such 2-wheelers are taught how to drive properly, always use your horn. To believe that you can drive in India (or at least Mumbai), without using the horn, is nothing short of living in a fantasy land.

[ggkg]

In civilised countries, horn is only to avoid imminent accidents. But then our streets are full of imminent accidents caused by reckless driving. Plus it's used as a mechanism to clear the street not just warn. First question in the event of accident is did you honk? That's even in situations where it's absolutely unnecessary.

As such one can sympathize with honk first approach. I rarely honk. But then I don't drive often certainly not in cities like Bangalore etc.

I think this disease has to be cured by a mix of education, culture change, soft touch police intervention and punishment that's progressively heavier.

For recalcitrant drivers, that just don't reform, a 3×3 ft sound insulated chamber should be constructed, studded with a dozen horns. Driver should be locked inside for an hour with horns blazing all the while.

If he can make it thru this with sanity intact, problem solved at least for one.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by ggkg

In civilised countries, horn is only to avoid imminent accidents. But then our streets are full of imminent accidents caused by reckless driving. Plus it's used as a mechanism to clear the street not just warn. First question in the event of accident is did you honk? That's even in situations where it's absolutely unnecessary.

As such one can sympathize with honk first approach. I rarely honk. But then I don't drive often certainly not in cities like Bangalore etc.

I think this disease has to be cured by a mix of education, culture change, soft touch police intervention and punishment that's progressively heavier.

Why don't you get some experience behind the wheel and see if you want to change your opinion?

History:

These civilized countries used to honk just as much as we do when there were less adherence to lane discipline, people and horses and all sorts of things walking all over the road - they have had an insane headstart to any other country in the world because of Ford model T etc and in comparison to how they were in the early days of motoring, we are doing just fine, very civilized indeed.

[ggkg]

Its nothing to do with colour of skin, percapita income or history of motoring. I've been to Cambodia, Vietnam where streets are filled with two wheelers and cars, all jam packed. Yet you rarely hear as much honking. In fact a honk gives you a shock. Here we are immune like mosquito bite. Some motorists solved that problem fitting lorry horns in cars and car horns in two wheelers!

I'm not sure in how many countries driving schools teach you to honk while passing every vehicle/ person, taking turn or nearing an intersection etc. Nowhere in the world practically every vehicle not standing first honk all the way from time signal turns green to crossing the lights. These bad behaviour need education and change.

Of course in some situations you honk because it's expected.

Yes it's true as I pointed out, honking is caused by bad driving by others. It feeds a vicious cycle. That's why I think it's a problem that's to be solved by multi pronged approach. With heavy punishments as last resort.