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Old 11th November 2017, 08:49   #106
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Default re: Royal Enfield unveils Interceptor & Continental 650 with new twin-cylinder engine. EDIT : Launched

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Originally Posted by Rob UK View Post

I am a little sad to see so many Indians running these bikes down before they even launch. Those guys remind me so much of Brits who said the same things about Triumph...

Enfield are not going to change the global bike market or the world with the Interceptor, but it is a stellar leap forward for them, and for the Indian automotive industry as a whole - a multi cylinder bike launched in Europe steals the show? Have the Chinese done that? Would anybody here notice or buy one if they tried? (Er, no)

Guys, if you can't stand behind Enfield then at least don't stand in the way?
Well, some of us are skeptics. Either because we were born skeptical or because we owned Enfields previously. I personally will not trust a Royal Enfield bike ever - I've gone through harrowing times owning one. That is why I also asked fms to be cautious and wait before they buy one of these bikes. The wait is for another reason - because RE treats its customers like guinea pigs - it uses them to test their products.

And hey, about standing in the way - it's a free country/forum mate. We're entitled to our views too.
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Old 11th November 2017, 09:33   #107
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Default re: Royal Enfield unveils Interceptor & Continental 650 with new twin-cylinder engine. EDIT : Launched

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Originally Posted by Rob UK View Post
Guys, if you can't stand behind Enfield then at least don't stand in the way?
I like how you totally ignored the "reliability" factor all were talking about and firmly held onto the "heritage" part. At least some of us need value-for-money (also read as No Headache). That automatically makes us skeptics and putting too much thinking before spending even if it's a 1Lac bike. Of course there are people who'll fall for the looks alone. I almost did with the Himalayan. I love the Triumph Bonn and the Interceptor looks yummy. All we wish is that the performance (reliability) matches its looks.
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Old 11th November 2017, 10:03   #108
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Default re: Royal Enfield unveils Interceptor & Continental 650 with new twin-cylinder engine. EDIT : Launched

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Originally Posted by Rob UK View Post
Anybody criticising RE for going SOHC on an 8v twin is simply revealing their own ignorance of bike engineering.

I would ask then "so, how many cams does a Honda CRF1000L 8v twin have?"

(Hint, the answer is less than 2 and more than 0)

The new engine hasn't been designed by some old dude in a shed in Chennai with a sheet of graph paper
8V twin with DOHC is that rare a configuration? Am I missing something?
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Old 11th November 2017, 12:16   #109
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Default re: Royal Enfield unveils Interceptor & Continental 650 with new twin-cylinder engine. EDIT : Launched

Frankly it looks average to me. Not bad, but just plain jane average. It is literally the 'stock' 60's brit single look. ZERO design development. Its so typical that its almost a caricature. 'eye roll'

RE is just so good at 'this'. This mass manufacturing of 'pretty looking' machines sold at ridiculous prices to evoke memories of some glorious past. Reminds me of Tony Soprano whining about 'good old days and Gary Cooper'! Lord! Puke!

Now if only it performs well... 'laughs a little'. Yeah right!

Last edited by Elito11 : 11th November 2017 at 12:38. Reason: sentence construction
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Old 11th November 2017, 12:39   #110
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Default re: Royal Enfield unveils Interceptor & Continental 650 with new twin-cylinder engine. EDIT : Launched

I have said it before and I will say it again: most people in India (apart from the ones who are forced by economic situations to buy commuter bikes) buy a bike for the looks and MAJORITY of them go for a Royal Enfield. So many of my friends who are inspired by me to learn how to ride and buy a bike, say that they want a Royal Enfield (9 in 10). When I was learning how to ride on a rental FZ16 and was speculating options on what bike to buy outside my college with a few buddys, someone said Ninja250 and the juice shop guy behind me said "no he wants a real bike" I smiled only to realise later that he meant a Royal Enfield and told me about his cousin selling a classic 500. Just the other week my girlfriend's best friend asked me about whether I could teach her to ride a bike and even she said she wants something like a Royal Enfield eventually. For most people riding a bike over a car is not about the more primary sensory experience, it is not about the constantly shifting center of gravity and weight distribution, it is not about lean angles or the dance your body does with the bike on a twisty road. For most people it is just the thrill of wind in your face and rebel tags ascociated with a bike like the Royal Enfield. Atleast in my age group

That said, I feel this bike will sell well even if sold at a ridiculous 5 lacs on road

Infact even though I don't really think of myself as an RE or even a cruiser kinda guy, I am very excited about this bike's launch in India as I am confident that it will sell well, achieve greater aspirational value than any other RE before it and maybe (and this is the part all my excitement is based upon) even inspire other manufacturers like KTM and Yamah to offer middleweight bikes here? Once I am done extracting the most out of my RC390, it would be nice to be able to upgrade to a possible RC790? Or a locally manufactured Daytona 675? Exciting times ahead in the Indian motorcycle market. Fingers crossed

Last edited by IshaanIan : 11th November 2017 at 12:43.
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Old 11th November 2017, 18:34   #111
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Default re: Royal Enfield unveils Interceptor & Continental 650 with new twin-cylinder engine. EDIT : Launched

There is a dearth of reasonable performance/ price machine in India. A machine that can be used in everyday traffic, can do an easy 120kph cruise, that can hit a ton easy and doesn't break the bank to mantain. The only bike I think meets or rather comes close to this expectation may be the Versys, yet the adv style may not be glamorous enough for all. This RE looks promising enough to meet expectations provided that its not overpriced and is not shoddily built. What I am personally looking for is for a Thunderbird iteration based on this engine.
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Old 11th November 2017, 19:28   #112
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Default re: Royal Enfield unveils Interceptor & Continental 650 with new twin-cylinder engine. EDIT : Launched

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There is a dearth of reasonable performance/ price machine in India. A machine that can be used in everyday traffic, can do an easy 120kph cruise, that can hit a ton easy and doesn't break the bank to mantain. The only bike I think meets or rather comes close to this expectation may be the Versys.
U just completely glosssed over the 390. Do you feel it doesn't do any of what you mentioned above?
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Old 11th November 2017, 22:15   #113
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Default re: Royal Enfield unveils Interceptor & Continental 650 with new twin-cylinder engine. EDIT : Launched

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Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad View Post
U just completely glosssed over the 390. Do you feel it doesn't do any of what you mentioned above?
Its too loud, too plasticy and gaudy for me. Its purely my opinion though. No offence to all who love it. Plus it is a single cylinder, I love the thrum of multicylinder engines
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Old 11th November 2017, 22:51   #114
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Default re: Royal Enfield unveils Interceptor & Continental 650 with new twin-cylinder engine. EDIT : Launched

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Its too loud, too plasticy and gaudy for me. Its purely my opinion though. No offence to all who love it. Plus it is a single cylinder, I love the thrum of multicylinder engines
So you are saying KTM is louder than an twin-cylinder Enfield! Well the 2017 390 zoom passed me and I couldn't even hear the exhaust note! and as someone who loves mulitcylinder bikes, I do feel slow revving long stroke sound any better than single that rockets to 10k rpm in a flash.

But just my 2cents on the topic, not saying your view isn't right
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Old 11th November 2017, 22:56   #115
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Default re: Royal Enfield unveils Interceptor & Continental 650 with new twin-cylinder engine. EDIT : Launched

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Originally Posted by giri1.8 View Post
So you are saying KTM is louder than an twin-cylinder Enfield! )
I assumed that by saying Loud, apachelongbow meant that it is "bold", or "flashy". Not actually the sound....
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Old 11th November 2017, 23:01   #116
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Default re: Royal Enfield unveils Interceptor & Continental 650 with new twin-cylinder engine. EDIT : Launched

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Originally Posted by deep_bang View Post
I assumed that by saying Loud, apachelongbow meant that it is "bold", or "flashy". Not actually the sound....
Okay, that didn't strike me at all , if that is the case then I can't deny his point! BTW makes me think why no one considers Dominar when they talk about relaxed bike that does it all, show why it is not doing so well.
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Old 11th November 2017, 23:46   #117
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Default re: Royal Enfield unveils Interceptor & Continental 650 with new twin-cylinder engine. EDIT : Launched

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Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
Its NOT a brit single. Its an INDIAN single (pun there or what?)

And secondly they are sitting on pots of money given to them by indian customers, they better be putting that money to good use and bringing out relatively trouble free bikes to our market. What overseas markets get is the least of our concerns here in india.

And lastly, it is only in the past 5 years that the indian continent has been blessed with an on rush of japanese and european multi cylinders that blow everything else away. We would like our time with them, please, just like how the brits and americans from developed nations had their time with them, before we decide on a new flavor.

Unfortunately, i dont think enfield will change until and unless they are pushed to the brink of survival. Just like triumph and lotus.
My use of the phrase "Brit single" was entirely deliberate - UCE engines don't thunder, they chug. Only the original British designed cast engine brings the spine tingling noise that will always be associated with Bullet. The fact it's still a common sound in your country is testament to the passion and love their Indian owners have for them. It is those very owners who make classic Enfields totally unique - by actually USING the damn thing. Here in the UK we might cherish our old Bonnies but we hardly ever ride them. As a massive petrolhead (not just biker) I find the fanatical passion many Enfield owners have in India inspiring and I have a lot of love for them and the bikes.

I'm not suggesting anybody who doesn't genuinely love old skool twin cylinder roadsters should ever buy these 650s for patriotism or heritage or whatever, nor that people should not instead buy a high performance Kawasaki / Triumph etc... If that's what floats their boat - go for it, enjoy.

I also get some of the sentiments expressed by those who are excited by these machines but want to wait and see how they stack up for others. If you earn a modest salary in India, then its surely a poor idea to trade in your current bike and borrow a large amount on finance to take the first Interceptor at the dealers. If its the vehicle which you will be dependent on as your daily transport, you would be a bit nuts to do that with any brand new model. But, if you love the bike so much you take that risk, then I take my hat off to you! However, the more risk averse position is completely understandable and sensible.

If this Interceptor turns out to be a 5 lac heap of junk that shakes itself to bits and rusts at the first sight of a raindrop, then it will of course deserve the panning it will get.

However, the impression I am getting is that to some extent, there are people who have zero interest in owning one and WANT it to turn out to be hopeless, or dislike retro bikes and have been waiting in the wings to bash whatever Enfield launch - that is what I don't understand and find quite sad.

Last edited by Rob UK : 11th November 2017 at 23:48.
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Old 11th November 2017, 23:52   #118
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Default re: Royal Enfield unveils Interceptor & Continental 650 with new twin-cylinder engine. EDIT : Launched

These look to be truly compelling bikes. I've wanted a twin for years, nearly bought a Hyosung Comet earlier this year for its sound alone, and always thought it was a shame that our neighbors in Sri-Lanka and Nepal had affordable common-man's twins long ago (small Honda CB/CM/Benly's) and we (apart from the rare Hyosungs, RD's, Jawas - or the recent high-end stuff - none of which were ever very serviceable), really didn't. This is the most exciting introduction in India since the (now slightly deflated/tainted) Himalayan, I'd say. My wife and I like the orange Interceptor. Really excellent, and I can't wait to ride one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aravind.anand View Post
- Sid Lal got it wrong when he called the 650 twin an air cooled engine, Simon - the Product Development head had to correct him that it is actually oil cooled
Seriously? And my Machismo is oil-cooled by nature of having some cooling fins on the oil chamber??? In fact, one doesn't even need those or an external oil cooler to have a measure of oil-cooling, which happens in any engine as oil circulates through hotter areas (piston underside, for example) and then contacts the cooler (due to their other side being exposed to air, mind you) surfaces of the cases/block (or even of the chassis, in the case of my DR350, which anybody knows is air-cooled!!!). So this new RE twin is clearly an air-cooled design (cooling fins on the cylinders, over which air passes for cooling purposes) vs. liquid cooled (having a water-jacket/radiator/pump). Total heat extraction would be from a percentage of each in this case, but I'm going to side firmly with Sid. Are the product development people getting a little too much into marketing? Hopefully so, as technical ignorance in the ranks would be even worse...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Archer84 View Post
I'm wondering how affordable... it's going to be
Online conjectures currently ranging between 3.25-3.8L for the Interceptor... If so, one way of looking at it is that this could be over a lakh more than the current Conti GT, and gosh, it's only got 115cc more, is marginally heavier, and doesn't really look any better.

Another way of looking at it is that even if I were to shell out lavishly for a Hitchcock's tuning kit for the 535, netting I think a 20% power increase, that still limits me to maybe only 35bhp total... and the thing is still going to vibe like mad (forever), and not really be anything like free-revving. It's got character maybe, but the twin should be a lot more refined and flexible hopefully.

Moreover, anything below 4L still puts it at less than half a Triumph twin, really the only other similar product available here. The Triumph is badly overpriced (globally speaking) owing to import duties - if it could sell for the price it does abroad that'd be a different story; But as it is, the RE is looking like a relative bargain.

I wonder what this is going to do to sales of Bonnevilles... and resale of Conti singles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Archer84 View Post
I'm wondering how... durable it's going to be. RE's bread and butter is the Indian market and would not want to be in the same soup as with the case of Himalayan.
Regarding (global) sales demographics: Truly wonder how this will do in the home market. Company's re-adjusting its sights now, global branding, etc. Will it be highly niche here? Will it woo Bullet owners away from their beloved, underpowered, vibratory singles? (bhaiyya, wo bilkul bekaar hai! Thump nahi hai!). Will we actually be seeing a lot of them out there on the roads? I hope so, but do wonder...

I was involved earlier in designing test equipment for evaluating - for both production an R&D, various automotive mechanical / electrical / hydraulic components... but it was often the case that products that tested well on our machines (incl. endurance testing) sometimes ended up with high warranty return rates.

At the time of the Himalayan launch, it seemed that the thing had undergone a huge amount of "real world" testing... (a number of spy photos out there, and I saw the team up here in Manali, discreetly thrashing several of them on bad roads at least 6-8 months before the announcement/introduction). And yet the production versions were plagued with various (largely resolvable) issues that never should have been there (how on earth can a company in the bike business this long mess up things like a charging stator... or steering head bearings, or a clutch assembly???).

We've got to admit that RE has been worse than probably anyone else in this market about introducing unsorted products (early UCE's - especially the 500 cranks, starter sprags, etc, oil leaks, cracked chassis more recently; Earlier, AVL's had hard times with pushrods/tappets breaking, etc). Not to mention all the bike-to-bike inconsistencies earlier... which with modernization / automation is probably less of an issue now.

Might be worth bearing in mind that this is how the Japanese managed to kill off all these old English marques in the first place. Even they mess it up occasionally (In my time, Honda V4 Interceptor engine failures, etc), still it's amazing how consistently they manage to get superior, trouble-free products to market.

But at some level it's also true that weaknesses / deficiencies often show up only in the rigors of day-in, day-out actual conditions that real-life owners put their machines through. "Durability" assumes multiple years of ownership, not a few months of spirited stress-testing. Two very different things, often with different results.

It would be nice if these twins turned out to be trouble-free... but let's just be ready for anything, and assume that the first round of owners are going to kinda be guinea-pigs... and they are going to assume that risk for the privilege of being some of the first to own these very compelling machines.

If it's any consolation, RE took the Himalayan's several issues very seriously, and provided warranty services, updates, whatever, to resolve them at no cost. Consistency of service providers at a local level, of course, is sometimes the challenging part.

-Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 12th November 2017 at 00:11.
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Old 12th November 2017, 00:12   #119
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Default re: Royal Enfield unveils Interceptor & Continental 650 with new twin-cylinder engine. EDIT : Launched

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Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
Okay, so my Machismo is oil-cooled by nature of having some cooling fins on the oil chamber??? In fact, one doesn't even need those or an external oil cooler to have a measure of oil-cooling, which happens in any engine as oil circulates through hotter areas (piston underside, for example) and then contacts the cooler (due to their other side being exposed to air, mind you) surfaces of the cases/block. This twin is clearly an air-cooled design (cooling fins on the cylinders, over which air passes for cooling purposes) vs. liquid cooled (having a water-jacket/radiator/pump). Total heat extraction would be from a percentage of each in this case, but I'm going to side firmly with Sid. Are the product development people getting a little too much into marketing? Hopefully so, as technical ignorance in the ranks would be even worse...
The way I see it, there are 3 ways you can cool an engine without water:

1- aircooled only, where airflow lowers the temperature of the external metal components to lower the internal temperature of the engine.

2- aircooled, plus an external oil cooler, where the oil is also cooled outside the engine to regulate the internal temperature of it, but the internal architecture of the engine only circulates the oil where it is required for lubrication.

3 - aircooled, plus an external oil cooler, but the internal architecture of the engine also utilises the oil as a cooling fluid by pumping it around galleries in the cylinder head(s) to cool them, as well as using it for general lubrication


Its the distinction between 2 & 3 that is important, any bike which is as per 1 can be readily modified to 2, but 3 is inherently designed in.

In my view, only 3 is TRULY an oil cooled engine. I think that's what RE have done, but I am far from certain! If that is the design then "oil cooled" is a fair description - but if it's 2 then calling it oil cooled is just marketing guff!
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Old 12th November 2017, 00:46   #120
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Default re: Royal Enfield unveils Interceptor & Continental 650 with new twin-cylinder engine. EDIT : Launched

For those of you who have never seen a original Royal Enfield Interceptor, I offer this picture.

While Triumph and BSA were making 650cc twins, the Royal Enfield Interceptor was a 750cc twin.

The old Interceptors were pushrod OHV engines and drum brakes were used.

IMO, the new 650cc 8 valve, OHC, fuel injected engine is definitely a step forward without losing the classic looks of the originals.

As for reliability, I expect some minor niggles out of the first new Interceptors off the assembly line but if these motorcycles are as reliable as the 2010+ Bullets they will be worth the expense of buying them.

My 2011 500cc Bullet has proven to be totally reliable without any real problems. It currently has 36000+ km on it.
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The Royal Enfield Interceptor & Continental 650. EDIT: Launched @ Rs 2.50 - 2.65 lakhs-interceptor.jpg  

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