[rishi_kapoor]

I just sold my trusted rally partner, my Mitsubishi Outlander.

(Ownership thread: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...outlander.html )

Mitsubishi Outlander was a great partner for 6 years and numerous trips to Himalayas both as family outings as well while participating in Raid-de-Himalaya and other mountain rallies as official. I can't thank Mitsubishi enough for an amazing luxury SUV and great support but all good things must way for better things and that's why I decided to part with my prized possession after 6 years.

Now, here is my dilemma. My next SUV has to fill in shoes of my Outlander. It has to be reliable, safe and should be able to get me back home after each mountain trip without stalling at high altitudes and difficult terrains.

I had originally shortlisted X5, Discovery Sport HSE-Luxury and new Q7. Q7 was ticked off the list after pathetic interactions with Audi India during my current A6 (3.0, Quattro) ownership. I feel after Michael Perschke's departure Audi India is struggling to focus on customer experience and support. Lets leave this here as this is not the main topic for this thread.

This SUV will be my secondary drive and will not do more than 500 Kms a month. Brand is important to match my professional posture. I don't believe in chauffeurs so this will be driven between me and my wife (who is a big BMW fan and currently owns a 320d e90, this will be eventually her daily drive clocking 1500 Kms a month). The SUV will be a partner for minimum 5-6 years with me. After sales support is essential given my primary usage of taking it to rallies and other mountain trips.

I am not keen on Pajero Sports due to diminishing brand and lack of refinement. Current Fortuner is also out of question due to its end of life for current generation as well as Innova like interiors. No questions that these 2 can be great rally cars but I would be rallying for 2 weeks a year so rest of the time luxury & refinement are important for me.

During my current research, I also observed a very critical challenge with both of my shortlisted car (X5 and Disco Sport) and that is lack of availability of AT (All Terrain) tyres for both of these in 18 inch. I would really appreciate if someone knows about an AT tyre available in India in 255/55/R18 or within 3% of diameter variance.

I did consider using X3 wheels on X5 for rallies since 235/65/R17 size does have AT available but that research went down the drain since X5 wheels have different center bore (74.1 as compared to 72.5) and offset (46 as compared to 48) than X3.

Discovery Sport, everything else is good except similar challenge of AT tyre and not so refined engine. There is no concrete news on Inginium engines in India and it is much less in power when compared to X5's 3.0 6 cylinder in-line engine. Luxury on X5 is way ahead of Disco.

Ford and Hyundai are not on my list since I am only looking for europeans at this time.

Please share your views and advice to help me decide my new rally partner. Following link will give you a glimpse of terrain that I intend to take my next rally car to:

https://followmydreamz.wordpress.com...9/07/new-post/

(Mods: feel free to remove the link if this is against the team-bhp policy, Thanks.)

[rdst_1]

I don't have any experience with any of these rides but just by reading through the forum, I would say that Land Rover might not be the way to go considering not only reliability issues with the new LRs but also the bad ASS reputation that they have garnered in India.
If the X5 is competent as an off-roader then it should be the prefect car for you considering the better interiors, features, engine and one of the best AMC and ASS setups in India when it comes to luxury European brands.

[reignofchaos]

Did you consider the xc90? It's the new kid on the block and is being showered with awards the world over. I recently moved from a Mitsubishi to a Volvo albeit at a much smaller level (cedia to v40) and let me say I have been completely bowled over by the new ride.

[rishi_kapoor]

Originally Posted by rdst_1

I don't have any experience with any of these rides but just by reading through the forum, I would say that Land Rover might not be the way to go considering not only reliability issues with the new LRs but also the bad ASS reputation that they have garnered in India.

I agree, after sales service and reliability is definitely questionable based on what I have read here. Having said that, ever since JLR has been given freedom as a sub-brand in Tata India, it seems to be doing better.

Originally Posted by reignofchaos

Did you consider the xc90? It's the new kid on the block and is being showered with awards the world over. I recently moved from a Mitsubishi to a Volvo albeit at a much smaller level (cedia to v40) and let me say I have been completely bowled over by the new ride.

XC 90 was definitely on my mind but I dropped it off list due to poor resale value and limited service. Another factor is that I have no connect with Volvo leadership. In my case a leadership connect is must to get support in unreachable Himalayas that vehicle will be subjected to.

[stanjohn123]

Originally Posted by rishi_kapoor

I had originally shortlisted X5, Discovery Sport HSE-Luxury and new Q7. Q7 was ticked off the list after pathetic interactions with Audi India during my current A6 (3.0, Quattro) ownership. I feel after Michael Perschke's departure Audi India is struggling to focus on customer experience and support. Lets leave this here as this is not the main topic for this thread.


During my current research, I also observed a very critical challenge with both of my shortlisted car (X5 and Disco Sport) and that is lack of availability of AT (All Terrain) tyres for both of these in 18 inch. I would really appreciate if someone knows about an AT tyre available in India in 255/55/R18 or within 3% of diameter variance.

I did consider using X3 wheels on X5 for rallies since 235/65/R17 size does have AT available but that research went down the drain since X5 wheels have different center bore (74.1 as compared to 72.5) and offset (46 as compared to 48) than X3.

Discovery Sport, everything else is good except similar challenge of AT tyre and not so refined engine. There is no concrete news on Inginium engines in India and it is much less in power when compared to X5's 3.0 6 cylinder in-line engine. Luxury on X5 is way ahead of Disco.

I actually was quite impressed by the ride quality and luxurious interiors of the Discovery Sport, although I haven't checked the X5 out, but if you are looking for reliability, cross out the Discovery Sport immediately. JLR's after sales is also very poor and that's the reason the DS got dropped from my list.

Did you check out the new Mercedes GLE ? This is a very good off roader , loved it's ride quality over poor roads and the engine seemed powerful enough in the 250d guise itself. If you need more power you can go for the 350D. It has huge road presence as well.

[Akshay1234]

Do remember that neither have a low range gearbox. Though if you managed with the Outlander I'm sure either of them will take the terrain just fine.

Between the 2 my pick would be the X5, even though the Discovery Sport is probably a more accomplished offroader. Reason being the after sales, JLR will be as bad if not worse than Audi.

Do confirm if 17" wheels will fit on the X5, they may not have enough clearance with the brakes. Also A/T tyres can be easily imported, if not available here in the size required.

I would still say, if you plan on really pushing the vehicle off road, pick up the Endeavour!

[reignofchaos]

Originally Posted by rishi_kapoor

XC 90 was definitely on my mind but I dropped it off list due to poor resale value and limited service. Another factor is that I have no connect with Volvo leadership. In my case a leadership connect is must to get support in unreachable Himalayas that vehicle will be subjected to.

Regarding resale, you are true to some extent. However considering it is brand new, honestly no one knows what the potential resale would be.

As for the leadership team, I can definitely help regarding that if you are seriously interested. I honestly have no idea about the Delhi Volvo dealer though. It might help to ask around.

[rishi_kapoor]

Originally Posted by stanjohn123

Did you check out the new Mercedes GLE ? This is a very good off roader , loved it's ride quality over poor roads and the engine seemed powerful enough in the 250d guise itself. If you need more power you can go for the 350D. It has huge road presence as well.

GLE can be a good option but 350 is way over my budget. But I am not ruling this out completely at this stage of my research. How about a 2015 ML350 at good discount?

Originally Posted by akshay1234

Do remember that neither have a low range gearbox. Though if you managed with the Outlander I'm sure either of them will take the terrain just fine.

Between the 2 my pick would be the X5, even though the Discovery Sport is probably a more accomplished offroader. Reason being the after sales, JLR will be as bad if not worse than Audi.

Do confirm if 17" wheels will fit on the X5, they may not have enough clearance with the brakes. Also A/T tyres can be easily imported, if not available here in the size required.

I would still say, if you plan on really pushing the vehicle off road, pick up the Endeavour!

Akshay, Ford seems underpowered as well as has reliability issues (though new endy may be better in both these departments).

Low range is not an issue as I don't intend to extreme offroad. Even during the rally we have help at hand in case of extreme conditions so a little tow goes a long way

Please guide me on importing the tyres, I guess with any of these I will have to choose the import way.

Originally Posted by reignofchaos

Regarding resale, you are true to some extent. However considering it is brand new, honestly no one knows what the potential resale would be.

As for the leadership team, I can definitely help regarding that if you are seriously interested. I honestly have no idea about the Delhi Volvo dealer though. It might help to ask around.

Thanks reignofchaos. I will take your offer to connect with Volvo and explore XC90. XC90 was on top of my list after briefly experiencing it in US but given Indian scenario and inflated price tag I dropped it. I will connect 1-1 with you on this.

[IshaanIan]

Considering your requirement for reliability and off-roading, I honestly have no clue how you could possibly consider the BMW X5 since it falls short in both those departments. The new Endeavor ought to do a lot more justice to your requirements. Had the chance to experience the car and it is certainly worth every penny. Mitsubishi ought to be coming out with their new Pajero as well which ought to be well worth the wait. If you are looking at premium cars, why not consider the Land Cruiser?

[shreyak_ss]

As per your requirements, the X5 will be an amazing buy but for those 2 weeks, it won't be of much help.
The Disco sport is a capable off-roader but if you are looking for a reliable machine, this shouldn't have been a part of your short list. I agree its a new car and may have sorted issues but buying a JLR in India has got mostly pain to the owners with helpless A. S. S. For a detail insight, go through Madmonkey's thread on the forum.
Coming to the Volvo, it's the newest of the lot and looks promising in every department. I have heard it is a good offroader, maybe not as good as the Land rover but certainly has an edge over the X5. It is the complete package providing best of both the cars in a slightly subtle way. So far from what I have heard, Volvos have done pretty well in our country as far as reliability and A. S. S. are concerned.
Merc GLE again falls under the same category as Volvo and will provide you a more luxurious feel.

But, since you are looking at a SUV and plan to do such terrains in it I feel buying a luxury badge doesn't make sense. I agree they come with all bells and whistles required for offroading and provide you comfort in the city as well but these are sophisticated vehicles and are prone to cause extensive damage to your pocket if anything goes wrong during your off road trails even if they last only 2 weeks a year. What you need is sir a robust vehicle, which can handle all the abuse you can throw at it during your offroading. The new Endy is a brilliant car. In Australia it has been pitched against the Prado and The Land Rover and has come out with flying colours. Our TBHP preview by S2 has also praised its off road credentials and along with that it is a comfortable car. It is by no means underpowered- its power figures of the 3.2 are in the league of Disco Sport and this car gives you 80% (if not 90) of what the Disco is offering at 50% price. As far as reliability is concerned, the previous Endy didn't have much to complain about. Your service costs would be well in control and the Ford A. S. S. has been helpful from what I have experienced with my Ecosport. But, you will have to let go of the "badge".

P.S- What about the upcoming Jeep offerings- The Grand Cherokee and the Wrangler? Any idea team? How capable are those?

[GTO]

I'm guessing your Outlander gave you fantastic service, as most Mitsubishi SUVs do.

Don't expect the same kind of dependability from a complex European SUV, no matter what the brand. All of them are known to suffer niggles after driving on regular city roads. Can't even imagine how they'll perform under such rough use! Plus, I don't know why you're stuck on a European SUV which will be a liability in remote areas. One bad underbody or side hit and you are looking at mega $$$$$$ in repair. When I offroad, the last thing I want to worry about is headlamps that cost 3 lakh rupees. Further, with their thin networks, don't expect any of them to give you the kind of service you want in remote areas.

You already have other luxury cars, so perhaps, a badge isn't as important for these trips as you think it is?

My suggestions would be:

- Endeavour 3.2L. Body on frame, low range transfer case, improved ride, all the technology & gizmos. Drive the 3.2 and you'll be impressed. Its quick, has robust mechanicals and rides better than the previous-gen.

- Wait for the new Fortuner. It is apparently more luxurious than the current utilitarian generation.

- As Shreyak posted above, wait for the Grand Cherokee. No clue about its reliability - post launch, look up international forums on the engine & gearbox they're selling here. I'm not recommending it, but just suggesting a wait & research.

- Used LandCruiser or Prado.

Run away from the Land Rovers. The X5 & gang are delicate darlings meant to be used on the road, not through rough terrain like you intend to attack. I took my BIL's Freelander through a very mild mud track. Next day, it started popping out all sorts of warning messages & errors. Had to be driven at 50 kph to the dealer who had to clean out the brakes etc.

Originally Posted by rishi_kapoor

Please guide me on importing the tyres, I guess with any of these I will have to choose the import way.

Link

[Auto Verruckt]

Dear Rishi, a very desirable predicament to be in I would say. Did you consider the Volkswagen Touareg ? Do remember that the current Touareg being manufactured worldwide & also sold in India has the same underpinnings of the example which won the Dakar rally a few years ago. I am quite sure that it will not only suit your rallying focused off-roading requirements but also fulfill your urge of owning a luxury SUV due to it's impeccable build quality, premium interiors, attractive feature list & typical German driving characteristics. Haven't read about too many unreliability episodes of Touareg owners on Team-bhp either. I definitely feel it is one ride worth considering.

[zulfi hansi]

I am not sure how soon you will be able to decide on your next SUV, but I am sold on the Outlander .

That apart, I suggest you stick to the reliability criteria the most, as everyone here have suggested. In that case the Germans are out. Land Cruiser Prado, new Ford Endy, TFort or new Pajero [wait for the new ones].

Alternatively, yet to be launched but interesting to see if Jeep Wrangler will fit the bill. Or even better if you can manage to order one of the last Defenders from JLR, that will be epic.

[rishi_kapoor]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

X5 since it falls short in both those departments. The new Endeavor ought to do a lot more justice to your requirements. H If you are looking at premium cars, why not consider the Land Cruiser?

Thanks IshaanIan. As a BMW owner I am happy with service and quality of Bimmers hence looking at X5. Another factor is that I am connected well with BMW India leadership thus service during the Raid may be facilitated. From all the comments it looks like I will have to test drive and do more research on new Endy

Land cruiser is out of my budget and I am not keen on a pre-owned.

Originally Posted by shreyak_ss

As per your requirements, the X5 will be an amazing buy but for those 2 weeks, it won't be of much help.
The Disco sport is a capable off-roader but

Coming to the Volvo, it's the newest of the lot and looks promising in every department.

Merc GLE again falls under the same category as Volvo and will provide you a more luxurious feel.

But, since you are looking at a SUV and plan to do such terrains in it I feel buying a luxury badge doesn't make sense.

P.S- What about the upcoming Jeep offerings- The Grand Cherokee and the Wrangler? Any idea team? How capable are those?

Thanks shreyak_ss. Yes, given the popularity of Endy, I will have to look at it again. Yes, Volvo again is a shortlister now. Merc is little out of my likes but I am getting a very good offer on a 2015 ML350 since it is replaced with GLE now.

Grand Cherokee and Wrangler both will be through Fiat India and having interacted with them as a Fiat owner and enthusiast, I will not believe their promises till I see it running on Indian roads.

Originally Posted by GTO

I'm guessing your Outlander gave you fantastic service, as most Mitsubishi SUVs do.

Don't expect the same kind of dependability from a complex European SUV, no matter what the brand. All of them are known to suffer niggles after driving on regular city roads. Can't even imagine how they'll perform under such rough use! Plus, I don't know why you're stuck on a European SUV which will be a liability in remote areas. One bad underbody or side hit and you are looking at mega $$$$$$ in repair. When I offroad, the last thing I want to worry about is headlamps that cost 3 lakh rupees. Further, with their thin networks, don't expect any of them to give you the kind of service you want in remote areas.

You already have other luxury cars, so perhaps, a badge isn't as important for these trips as you think it is?

My suggestions would be:

- Endeavour 3.2L. Body on frame, low range transfer case, improved ride, all the technology & gizmos. Drive the 3.2 and you'll be impressed. Its quick, has robust mechanicals and rides better than the previous-gen.

- Wait for the new Fortuner. It is apparently more luxurious than the current utilitarian generation.

- As Shreyak posted above, wait for the Grand Cherokee. No clue about its reliability - post launch, look up international forums on the engine & gearbox they're selling here. I'm not recommending it, but just suggesting a wait & research.

- Used LandCruiser or Prado.

Run away from the Land Rovers. The X5 & gang are delicate darlings meant to be used on the road, not through rough terrain like you intend to attack. I took my BIL's Freelander through a very mild mud track. Next day, it started popping out all sorts of warning messages & errors. Had to be driven at 50 kph to the dealer who had to clean out the brakes etc.



Link

Thanks GTO. I will try tirerack.com, if this doesn't work then probably will bring 1 tyre at a time as checked in luggage

Mitsubishi makes amazing cars. HM is screwing up Mitsubishi customer base in India and Mitsubishi doesn't seem to be having a long term strategy for India. If I could buy a Pajero, I wouldn't have even looked at another replacement. But there is no concrete word on either new Pajero, new Outlander or new Montero launch in India. This is indeed a sad situation.

I agree with you that luxury SUVs may not be very rugged for off-roading but I am not doing extreme offroading even during Raid, I agree the terrain is demanding but as per my experience I feel X5 should perform as desired but again that is not guaranteed till I actually test it.

Any of these SUVs will require lot of preparation in terms of AT tyres, snow safety chains, undercarriage protection etc so whether I decide on X5, Volvo or Endy they will all undergo preparation and extensive testing.

New Fortuner undoubtedly will be a good replacement but again there is no concrete info on its launch, so the case is same as Jeep etc.

Given your advice and popular word on forum, I will test drive Endy and assess it against my requirement. Volvo XC90 is also exciting, will try that as well.

Originally Posted by Auto Verruckt

Dear Rishi, a very desirable predicament to be in I would say. Did you consider the Volkswagen Touareg ? Do remember that the current Touareg being manufactured worldwide & also sold in India has the same underpinnings of the example which won the Dakar rally a few years ago. I am quite sure that it will not only suit your rallying focused off-roading requirements but also fulfill your urge of owning a luxury SUV due to it's impeccable build quality, premium interiors, attractive feature list & typical German driving characteristics. Haven't read about too many unreliability episodes of Touareg owners on Team-bhp either. I definitely feel it is one ride worth considering.

Thanks Auto Verruckt. I had looked at Touareg but VW India has discontinued this model. VW ASS is also pretty bad and after current A6 ownership, I don't think I will take chance with any VW stable vehicle. VW and Audi India management needs an overhaul with good leadership to sustain and play in India for a long time.

Originally Posted by zulfi hansi

I am not sure how soon you will be able to decide on your next SUV, but I am sold on the Outlander .

That apart, I suggest you stick to the reliability criteria the most, as everyone here have suggested. In that case the Germans are out. Land Cruiser Prado, new Ford Endy, TFort or new Pajero [wait for the new ones].

Alternatively, yet to be launched but interesting to see if Jeep Wrangler will fit the bill. Or even better if you can manage to order one of the last Defenders from JLR, that will be epic.

Thanks Zulfi. Yes I agree Outlander is an amazing SUV, I am already missing it. I will look at Endy since all other SUVs mentioned by you are still not on road.

[ajmat]

A Friend of mine got an ML350 for 8L less than an X5 earlier this year. Ideally, buy the X5 and find a used Vitara for the rally stuff