[ghostrider4385]

I don't know if this (problem?) was always happening and I noticed it just now, or is a new thing that started during the sudden Hyd cold wave. When I started my zen mpfi on a cold morning a few days back, I left it to idle to warm up the engine. I noticed a really weird hollow churning sound (couldn't detect its source though). The moment I pressed the clutch the noise stopped. And started again the moment I took my foot off the clutch. I started noticing this problem every morning. I took my car to get it serviced a day back. What the chap there (he seemed pretty competent) told me was that it was called a 5th-gear noise and is normal. Now what is this 5th-gear noise (if there IS something like it) and is it really normal?!

Please shed some light on this and enlighten me!

godspeed.

Alok.

[Zappo]

Heh! A 5th-Gear noise? Now, you started your car and it was idling. I take it that you do not idle your car in 5th gear. So how in the world a 5th-Gear noise (if there ever was such a thing in the first place) comes into play here?

Are you sure it is not another one of those Maruti smooth talks that the MASS guys resort to so often?

[ghostrider4385]

To Zappo: Haha, no, I was sure as hell idling my car in neutral. And I think this guy was pretty competent cause he managed to answer other questions I asked him accurately. And he was'nt the types to get me to change or repair parts unnecessarly, in fact, it was just the opp! This particular service station I am talking about is the "Mithra Motors" service centre. They might be real slow but they do a darn good job on your ride!

Godspeed.

Alok.

[Zappo]

Originally Posted by ghostrider4385

To Zappo: This particular service station I am talking about is the "Mithra Motors" service centre. They might be real slow but they do a darn good job on your ride!

Godspeed.

Alok.

I see! Well I never heard of a 5th-gear noise for sure. Only thing (noise or whatever) I can correlate to 5th gear is the hollow booming noise that your engine sometimes make when the rpm is not sufficiently high for the 5th gear and yet not low enough for your car to stall/jerk. If the problem is continuing then I would suggest that you get a second opinion on this.

But you are satisfied with Mithra, is it? :-/ I do not have enough personal exp with these guys but lot of my friends say that Mithra's service is not so great. Most feel that service-wise RKS is the best. Even Varun which used to be good has become very casual about things probably because of the tremendous load that they get to manage.

[ghostrider4385]

To Zappo: I have always been giving my cars to mithra. No problem till date. The only thing is they are slow, but then they worth it. And it's a pain for me to come all the way to varun or rsk to get the car serviced, me staying in Marredpally. By the way, will the service rates at all the maruti service stations be the same? In terms or wheel alignment, 9-point service, engine wash, full service, etc.

Godspeed.

Alok.

[SLK]

Yes.. i know... that 5th gear noise.... but its not constant!...

It comes in my wagonR & 800s cold engine... too...
it comes up only when the car is revving up around 12-1300rpm.... not below that.

Even I don't think its a problem... its just related to gear oil circulation to the 5th gear.

I am actually on a look out for better quality gear oils... coz all the MASS oils are crap.


P.S. ... most of the cars make this noise... but normally people wont notice it... how many warm-up the engines properly?.. and that too in absolute silence

[SLK]

Synchromesh gearboxes all gears rotate.... even if not engaged. So don't bother about neutral making the 5th gear noise!!

[ghostrider4385]

To SLK: Phew, thanks man, thats a load off my mind! But you said that the sound usually comes when you rev. My sound comes when I just leave it idling... I mean I don't rev or anything. Why do some people rev to warm up the engine (even if they do it in neutral). Doesnt it kill the engine in the long run?

Originally Posted by SLK

Synchromesh gearboxes all gears rotate.... even if not engaged. So don't bother about neutral making the 5th gear noise!!

A silly question : If thats the case then how come we don't hear 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear noises? Why only the 5th gear? What is so special about the 5th gear noise?And yes, I do know how a synchromesh gearbox works. This sort of noise doesn't come on any of my other cars.

Godspeed.

Alok.

[Zappo]

Originally Posted by ghostrider4385

To Zappo: I have always been giving my cars to mithra. No problem till date. The only thing is they are slow, but then they worth it. And it's a pain for me to come all the way to varun or rsk to get the car serviced, me staying in Marredpally. By the way, will the service rates at all the maruti service stations be the same? In terms or wheel alignment, 9-point service, engine wash, full service, etc.

Godspeed.

Alok.

Oho... Marredpally! Thats pretty close to my place I stay at Karkhana. And RKS has a service station just next to Banthia Gardens. Thats closer to any other service station I guess.

Service rates... well I would have said 'most probably yes' till a few days back. But now I do not. They charge different rates for the same things depending on such inconsequential things as who is paying. I took an estimate for some body denting work and then painting. I was told 6k. However as soon as I mentioned insurance they made a bill for 8.5k

Their logic was that insurance cos. always deduct amounts and hence they need to inflate. Ultimately the insurance co. paid 6.6k... more than what I was given an estimate for. Yet I was billed another Rs1987 as insurance did not pay for the bumper, apparently. When I asked them that you actually got paid more than what your initial estimate was the non-chalant reply was "saahab apne ko bhi to kuchh pay karnaa padtaa naa?". Go figure! Ultimately I got a Rs.500 rebate on the bill. Again how they will tally their accounts after the rebate, considering that for everything they did the work no. and its rate was written against it as if it is some big standard, is anybody's guess.

[Zappo]

I see. The only idling noise in the cold mornings that I knew about was the screeching noise from the belt as it slips. Normally it stops in a while as the temperature rises.

And if the 5th gear noise comes at 1300rpm then how can you hear that? I mean your car starts idling at around 900rpm and then goes up slowly.

By the way Alok, never rev your car when you are warming up the engine. Anyhow modern day cars have ECU which takes care of the revs required. If your car has a Tacho (Swift?!) then you will see that as the car keeps standing with the engine on the revs inch up slowly, all by itself. This is ECU at work.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by ghostrider4385

[b]But you said that the sound usually comes when you rev. My sound comes when I just leave it idling... I mean I don't rev or anything. Why do some people rev to warm up the engine (even if they do it in neutral). Doesnt it kill the engine in the long run?

No, I don't revv the engine... when cold the engine automatically revvs... at about 12-1500rpm... thats when the sound comes (not continously)...
and when the engine warms up a bit... and revvs down to the normal 800rpm then there's no sound.
So I had to revv the engine a bit to closely listen to the sound.

Yes some people revv the engine rather hard in the morning (in delhi, its quite cold) .. and yes finally it does kill the engine... actually we killed our 97 model 800 like that (b'coz it used to take 15 mins to warm up if not revved hard)

Originally Posted by ghostrider4385

A silly question : If thats the case then how come we don't hear 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear noises? Why only the 5th gear? What is so special about the 5th gear noise?And yes, I do know how a synchromesh gearbox works. This sort of noise doesn't come on any of my other cars.

Well, I asked the same to the MASS supervisor.... he said "thats b'coz the gear oil you put last time somehow did not reach the 5th gear properly, which is the last gear in the box, but its a common thing not a defect"

Maybe its b'coz my cars are old now!... WagonR 5+ and 800DX about 6 years old.

[ghostrider4385]

To SLK: you know what, now that you mention it, I DID read in a post about some TBHPian's zen that it auto revs on start-up. I knew this happens, but now it really makes sense why it does. But, if it harms the car if you rev on a cold engine, why does the car autorev till the engine becomes warm?
And I was in Delhi for a coupla years. Infact just got back to Hyd for good only a few months back... and trust me, I KNOW about Delhi's winters!
I don't think it matters that your cars are 5 or 6 years old. Mine is just 3 years old. If you come across some good gear oil please tell me about it too!

Godspeed.

Alok.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by ghostrider4385

But, if it harms the car if you rev on a cold engine, why does the car autorev till the engine becomes warm?

it revvs automatically but its just a few hundred rpm... not much. Similar to the choke we had in the carburetor cars.

And the auto revving is required to get the engine to operating temperature as soon as possible, that in fact reduces the damage which might be caused by driving a cold engine. Also a cold engine isn't as efficient and responsive as a warmed up one.. so its good to have it warmed up ASAP (without revving hard)
.

[Zappo]

As I said, the car autorevs but in a controlled fashion. The ECU takes care of that. The revs go up slowly. There are so many sensors built in to monitor the vital stats of the modern car.

So do not worry on the autorev part. ECU knows the best about your car. Just do not add your own inputs (thru accl pedals).

[Sideways]

Ask him to try and change the release bearing and see if the noise goes away. If it still persists you might have to change the bearing on the main shaft. I don't think it has anything to do with the 5th cog.