[BaCkSeAtDrIVeR]

sridhar-v - please continue. I am sure all of us will continue to listen.

I find it intriguing, (but it true too) - geopolitics has a major part in shaping a country's industry.

How many of us know that "patent" we earn on our software, drugs and inventions is the same kind of monopoly the Kings graned to people like Columbus or the "East India company"? These patents meant that nobody else could conduct trade with India. Even Indians could not take our produce ourselves and sell in the patent issuing country. Has the situation changed a bit even now?

We develop something in our KPO centers, somebody else patents it, and we pay royalties for what we develop.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR

sridhar-v - please continue. I am sure all of us will continue to listen.

I find it intriguing, (but it true too) - geopolitics has a major part in shaping a country's industry.

How many of us know that "patent" we earn on our software, drugs and inventions is the same kind of monopoly the Kings graned to people like Columbus or the "East India company"? These patents meant that nobody else could conduct trade with India. Even Indians could not take our produce ourselves and sell in the patent issuing country. Has the situation changed a bit even now?

We develop something in our KPO centers, somebody else patents it, and we pay royalties for what we develop.

Patents were meant to offset the cost involved in developing/exploring, hence they are justified to some extent.

I do not subscribe to the view that any one can patent what your KPO develops. Yes if it is stolen it may happen, but in the modern world if you can prove that you have carried out the development, and some else has patented it, that patent is canceled. Look at what happened in case of Basmati Rice and traditional Neem based medicines. All patents were canceled/rejected as it was proved that the patents involved traditional knowledge and not some thing that the patent applicant had developed.

But I still cannot fathom out, how patents and geopolitics have implications in reliability.

[download2live]

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

My posts on Foster's resignation have turned into a deep discussion on quality issues. So I felt it would be better to continue the detailed discussion on Q.C. here.

Please continue. I am waiting for the next installment.
You are a good writer.
Maybe you can go for a doctorate on this topic.

[BaCkSeAtDrIVeR]

Originally Posted by Aroy

But I still cannot fathom out, how patents and geopolitics have implications in reliability.

1. First iteration of Indica had to do with a 4 speed gear box - nobody was willing to transfer GB technology to India.

2. For a generation of Indians used to dismantling brand new cars and rebuilding them for getting reliability (we did that with an amby - a brand new one), just anything that works is quite good.I guess this is what he is hinting at. At least, I feel that is reason for tata's current level of quality.

Heck, forget tatas. Just look at quality of plastic / PVC carry bags from some supermarket outside India, and those from any source within India.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR

Heck, forget tatas. Just look at quality of plastic / PVC carry bags from some supermarket outside India, and those from any source within India.

It is a matter of cost.

Last time I checked, a normal pencil was Rs 1-3. With all sorts of legislature in force in EU and US, the pencil becomes $1 there, as it has to be child safe, non toxic etc etc. Same is the case with our plastic bags. If the public is willing to pay, or the government legislates so, the quality will go up dramatically, albeit at a cost to the consumer. In Delhi malls, with phasing out of plastic bags, cloth bags sell at Rs.5/, but there are a very few takers! The jute bags used by high value merchants are a class apart, but then the bag cost is absorbed by the huge profit they make, not at all the case with the neighbourhood grocer.

Take the case of Manufacturing in China. All the big brands manufacture in China (Apple, IBM, HP, Nokia etc), their quality is superb. Then take the case of the so called Chinese Goods. Most of their quality is pretty ordinary to out right bad, but you are paying less than half compared to large brands. So it is not that the Chinese or Indians are manufacturers of inherently poor quality goods, it is what the market wants.

So what if, say Tata or MUL gives excellent plastic at a cost of 25K extra, the public will view the extra quality as an added cost and not as an advantage, and rush to a cheaper option.

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by Aroy

A case to the point - Patek Philippe make one of the most sought after mechanical watches, ------- As pointed out, high tolerance every where is counter productive.

Good example.

If you make a state-of-art machine wringing the last ounce of performance to give the consumer "the state of art" (like Germans do), it is bound to fail under non-ideal conditions. What the Japanese have mastered is the art of extracting the maximum service-life from their components and not maximum-performance, hence the reliability on one hand and "boring" cars on the other.

Interesting observation. Can you shed some light on how this is achieved, what adds to the reliability considering only the "design" and keeping aside the QC / Process control apart.

Spike

[headers]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Interesting observation. Can you shed some light on how this is achieved, what adds to the reliability considering only the "design" and keeping aside the QC / Process control apart.

Spike

The Japanese do a complete product lifecycle in Japan before they launch the same models to ROW. Also, the Japanese standards often exceed / are at par with EU which is a difficult standard to match.

And with every design change is decided the product life cycle thereby deciding the cost of the product before manufacture starts.

[nitinbose]

It would not be right to say Japanese cars are reliable as that would also convey the meaning "all japanese cars". This statement mainly refers to Toyota. There are other Japanese cars like Isuzu, Diahatsu etc., which are considered to have poor reliability. Mitsubishi and Honda also have expensive service/repair costs.

However, one point to note is that when a Japanese company manufactures something, they do it with an intention to export, while the Germans, I guess have not reached there, although there are also gearing up.

Furthermore, they may be manufacturing the spares as per the german climate which may not be sufficient to work in the Indian weather/usage conditions.

Let us give them some time as well.

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by headers

The Japanese do a complete product lifecycle in Japan before they launch the same models to ROW.

Do the Japanese only follow this method? I am sure there must be a different philosophy behind their designs also. I am more interested in that part.

Also, the Japanese standards often exceed / are at par with EU which is a difficult standard to match.

Standards in terms of ? Could you explain keeping the QC aside?

And with every design change is decided the product life cycle thereby deciding the cost of the product before manufacture starts.

This is known. What I would like to understand is how is 'this' achieved.

Spike

[headers]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Do the Japanese only follow this method? I am sure there must be a different philosophy behind their designs also. I am more interested in that part.

Standards in terms of ? Could you explain keeping the QC aside?

This is known. What I would like to understand is how is 'this' achieved.

Spike

Spike - We will take it offline - You are welcome anytime

[Sutripta]

^^^
Would love to be a fly on the wall during an manufacturer <-> tier 1 vendor technical/ price discussion! Any views, anyone?

Regards
Sutripta

[C300]

Originally Posted by nitinbose

It would not be right to say Japanese cars are reliable as that would also convey the meaning "all japanese cars". This statement mainly refers to Toyota. There are other Japanese cars like Isuzu, Diahatsu etc., which are considered to have poor reliability. Mitsubishi and Honda also have expensive service/repair costs.

However, one point to note is that when a Japanese company manufactures something, they do it with an intention to export, while the Germans, I guess have not reached there, although there are also gearing up.

Furthermore, they may be manufacturing the spares as per the german climate which may not be sufficient to work in the Indian weather/usage conditions.

Let us give them some time as well.

While I agree that the Japs have been manufacturing the cars predominantly for the export market, Germans have also been doing it for decades now.
I dont think there can be an excuse for unreliable cars given the customers in countries such as India are paying through their noses for German brands.
I am sure they must be testing the vehicles in our condition, if not then they are taking us for a ride.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Interesting observation. Can you shed some light on how this is achieved, what adds to the reliability considering only the "design" and keeping aside the QC / Process control apart.

Spike

I will take the example from electronics. Every component has a speed and temparature range. We also know that as we speed up the clock the failure rate increases. Now take two diverse approaches.

. During their heydays, IBM would design boards for say 1Mhz clock rate while the components were capable of going upto say 2.5 Mhz. Their components rarely failed as they were well below the upper threshold. The down side was that the IBM machines were more expensive.

. HP took the opposite stance. They would run all the components through analysers, and sort the components based on their maximum speed, and then stamp HP code on the components. This resulted in a high speed machine at a nominal cost (compared to IBM), but as each component was operating at the edge of its capability, failure rates were higher.

I view the Japanese approach similar to IBM. They design components for a more severe environment than the cars will experience. So the components last longer and failure rates practically non existent. Another plus point with Japanese design is that components and their placement are designed for ease of maintenance and not for compactness, ease of manufacture or performance.

In contrast Germans use state of art components at the extreme edge of their specified operating condition. What they get is top of the line performance at a very reasonable cost. What you and I loose out on is that these components have a very short operational life, hence we end up replacing them more often - a double whammy shorter interval and more expensive spares (due to state of art!). To prove my point, I believe that BMW and MB brakes last half as long as say Honda or Toyota, same is the case with AC compressor. Where both are at par is in "old" technology, that is pure mechanical components - Cylinder block, pistons, crank shaft etc.

[alpha1]

Yes but the Jappu vehicles are not as expensive as the Germ ones.
(For the similar specification / body type).

So its not really analogous to IBM-HP scenario.

[headers]

Originally Posted by Aroy

I will take the example from electronics. Every component has a speed and temparature range. We also know that as we speed up the clock the failure rate increases. Now take two diverse approaches.

. During their heydays, IBM would design boards for say 1Mhz clock rate while the components were capable of going upto say 2.5 Mhz. Their components rarely failed as they were well below the upper threshold. The down side was that the IBM machines were more expensive.

. HP took the opposite stance. They would run all the components through analysers, and sort the components based on their maximum speed, and then stamp HP code on the components. This resulted in a high speed machine at a nominal cost (compared to IBM), but as each component was operating at the edge of its capability, failure rates were higher.

I view the Japanese approach similar to IBM. They design components for a more severe environment than the cars will experience. So the components last longer and failure rates practically non existent. Another plus point with Japanese design is that components and their placement are designed for ease of maintenance and not for compactness, ease of manufacture or performance.

In contrast Germans use state of art components at the extreme edge of their specified operating condition. What they get is top of the line performance at a very reasonable cost. What you and I loose out on is that these components have a very short operational life, hence we end up replacing them more often - a double whammy shorter interval and more expensive spares (due to state of art!). To prove my point, I believe that BMW and MB brakes last half as long as say Honda or Toyota, same is the case with AC compressor. Where both are at par is in "old" technology, that is pure mechanical components - Cylinder block, pistons, crank shaft etc.

Somehow I believe the complete opposite - Japanese are like HP and Germans are like IBM.

What happens in reality in service centers in India is completely different as the Service guys hardly understand technology!!