[TOR]

Guys this is a hypothesis-please don't shout me down ! TIA

Three competing SUV's in the same price bracket.

All three are start-ups in the the market and hence depends on outside tech support to design and manufacture the engines.







Now here things gets interesting.

mHawk - tech collaborator is AVL Austria.

2.2 FMTECH 4 - tech collaborator is Daimler AG

DiCOR 2.2 VTT -tech collaborator is mercedes-daimler benz(assuming).

AVL is a business partner to Daimler and also a parts supplier-from what i could google out.

Specifications-all three.

engine type-inline 4

displacement -2.2liters(the tata and mahindra are exact at 2179cc and the force at 2149cc)

valves - 16

turbo -variable geometry

power - 140bhp

torque - 320N-m

Bore x Stroke - 85 mm x 96 mm(this is DICOR-could not find the others)

Now the question is whether these three engines share a common ancestor/'parent'(in the form of the designer) ?

Please do give your view points.

[SirAlec]

i dunno about the other but TATA's 2.2 is the rebored old IDI 1998 cc block that was first installed in Sumo. Its a reliable engine. As none of the Sumo that were doing TAXI rounds died even after doing 3lac kms.

[aaggoswami]

IIRC, Both the Safari/Aria DICOR 2.2 and the Mhawk 2.2 are same blocks. The difference is crdi system. And thats why both have similar BoreXstroke of 85 X 96 mm.

I dont think that they have similarities. The Mercedes engine in F-one is already discontinued.
The OM611 has 88 X 88.3 Bore X stroke.

[anb]

Originally Posted by SirAlec

i dunno about the other but TATA's 2.2 is the rebored old IDI 1998 cc block that was first installed in Sumo. Its a reliable engine. As none of the Sumo that were doing TAXI rounds died even after doing 3lac kms.

No, both the engines are sourced from AVL Austria. I read somewhere that there is some difference in common rail system between two engines. The engine in XUV500 has lesser lag.

[sridhar-v]

Originally Posted by SirAlec

i dunno about the other but TATA's 2.2 is the rebored old IDI 1998 cc block that was first installed in Sumo. Its a reliable engine. As none of the Sumo that were doing TAXI rounds died even after doing 3lac kms.

The TATA 2.2 is a completely new engine & not a derivative of the Sumo 4SP engine. I know for a fact because I have designed the machining fixtures for the block & head.

[Rahulkool]

Originally Posted by anb

No, both the engines are sourced from AVL Austria. I read somewhere that there is some difference in common rail system between two engines. The engine in XUV500 has lesser lag.

Yeah even i read that in a magazine long back when these engines were introduced that both are designed by AVL. Only the common rail system is different because of supplier.

[TOR]

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

I know for a fact because I have designed the machining fixtures for the block & head.

That's great !

Could you clarify a bit further:

-from the Tata Estate days Tata's relied on Mercedes Benz(Daimler) station wagon tech for the Estate/Sierra developments.

-is it possible that the Dicor 2.2 had some sort of collaboration with MB? -or was the engine designed completely in-house?

-also the tempo traveler/trax also used a Daimler-Benz engine for power the OM616 engine

-the OM616 was a 2404 cc and 65 hp engine and used to power the Mercedes-Benz 240D.

-now the Tata estate was based on the T variant of the Mercedes-Benz 200D(model W123) which used the OM615 2L engine.

To put things in perspective:

-the sumo diesel engine must be based on the 2.0L OM615.

-the safari engine on the OM616 2.4L(assuming).

-Force motors made and used the OM616 in India-thats a fact.

-so surely the Force motor and Tata diesels must have some connection to the OM615/OM616 engines(assuming).

-now the case of Mahindra-is there any definite proof to link the engine to the Merc unit-through AVL and Daimler?

-if the above assumption be the case then in the xylo/sumo grande, the Scorpio/Safari, the XUV500/Aria - we might be looking at another 'National Engine' - like the Fiat-GM 1.3 MJD !

[A350XWB]

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

The TATA 2.2 is a completely new engine & not a derivative of the Sumo 4SP engine. I know for a fact because I have designed the machining fixtures for the block & head.

Don't know about the Force One engine, but the mHawk and the 2.2 DiCOR are essentially the same, developed by AVL, Austria around the same time. I know a person who was involved in the DiCOR development for TATA. When he was in AVL, there was also a team from M&M working on the mHawk. From his feedback, before the launch, I believed that Scorpio would be a 140 BHP machine, but they released it in a differently tuned form.

[ACM]

Originally Posted by anb

No, both the engines are sourced from AVL Austria. I read somewhere that there is some difference in common rail system between two engines. The engine in XUV500 has lesser lag.

Lesser lag in real time is due to 20% kgs lesser wt.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by SirAlec

i dunno about the other but TATA's 2.2 is the rebored old IDI 1998 cc block that was first installed in Sumo.

A little correction:

The Sumo engine displaces 1948 CC (not 1998 CC), with bore= 83 MM and stroke= 90 MM. Sumo was the 4th (not first) Tata vehicle to get this engine.

The engine first appeared in Tatamobile or Tata 206, India's first pick-up truck that was launched in July 1988. Initial versions developed 60 HP @ 4500 RPM (hence the designation 206 the early Tatamobiles got) which got increased to 68 PS @ 4500 RPM by 1989 achieved by increasing the compression ratio. The Tatamobile then got redesignated as 207 (not to be confused with the current 207DI that uses 407's engine).

The 2nd vehicle to be fitted with the engine was Sierra that appeared in 1991, the 3rd being Tata Estate and Sumo being the 4th. Of course all these vehicles were based on the same platform and shared most aggregates.

The 1948 CC IDI engine was developed by Tata entirely in-house and is said to have been "influenced" by a Peugeot rather than Mercedes design. Tata did not collaborate with any foreign company for developing this engine which was no mean achievement in 1987-88 considering that around the same time, Mahindra was merely a license-manufacturer of an engine with similar specs, the Peugeot XDP 2112 CC unit that replaced the International Harvester tractor engine in its jeeps.

Later, a petrol version of the Sumo engine was developed for the Safari Petrol and Tata Magna (Tata's still-born big car) using the same block but with a 16 valve dual overhead cam head. The bore was increased from 83 MM to 86 MM but stroke remained the same at 90 MM. In the process, the displacement increased to 2092 CC. The petrol version is still offered in Safari Petrol and develops 127 HP @ 5630 RPM.

Dicor 2.2 is said to be an all-new engine although it too is claimed by many to be Peugeot-influenced.

[SirAlec]

Thanks for clarifying. but little inside research that i did shows,AVL did helped in development process, the engine is not sourced from AVL like people here have mentioned.

AVL jobs were pure consulting. they are completely developed by TATA on AVL's recommended specs. The engines components were made by TATA & various of its prior OE supplier. Testing was done in europe.

Fuel system is supplied by Delphi and turbocharger by honeywell.

PS: there is a possibility the old block was used to rebore. I had a very old journal which state that but i kind of misplaced it. It was about how 2.2 was developed and first revealed in Bologna Auto show.

[sridhar-v]

Tata Motors have the following 3 old workhorses:-

1. 697 - original Mercedes design with many changes over time
6 CYL X 97 mm bore. Originally the bore was lesser.( around 75 or 80mm). Originally these were IDI engines & later converted to DI. These are used in the 1210 series and with turbocharging were used in the 1516 & 1312(original 2002 model.) Later on it was given up in favour of the Tata Cummins range of engines. But cost pressure brought the engine back into service in the current 12 tonner series. Now there are CNG & LPG variants and lots of permutation combinations.

2. 497 - also from MB. Used in 407 and 709 series of LCVs.

3. 4SP - 4 cylinder engine designed inhouse with a lot of outside inspiration. Used in the Sumo/Safari/207 range of vehicles. Both IDI & DI variants.Again now turbocharged (Sumo Victa Turbo & inbetween the Safari also.).

Their newer engines are:-

1. 2.2 L Dicor. Designed inhouse with features of many leading engines. But largely a hybrid of 497 & 4SP features. Now used in Safari, Aria & will come in many other vehicles.
This engine has been extensively tuned by AVL for meeting emission norms. Actually almost all engines post BS2 - ie once they started using Turbos- have been tuned by AVL. I also think it is part of the certification process but not sure on that.

2. 475 - 4cyl 75mm bore. IDI & now DI. & now with Turbo. Used in the old Indica, Indigo & the new Indica Vista. Largely based on the Peugeot engine though they have done a lot in terms of home grown effort to adapt it to our conditions. But I can also see a lot of hints of features of 497 & 4SP. A petrol version of this was also developed for the petrol Indica.
There was a 3 cyl version of this but I think it did not come out sucessful.


3. 275 - 2cyl 75mm bore. Used in the NANO. Petrol. great engine. totally home grown.
2 cyl diesel engine is developed but is under proto testing.

4. 3 litre 4 cyl diesel - proto production underway. for LCVs
5. 5 litre 4 cyl diesel - proto production underway. Probably for MCVs.

For their world truck series they are sourcing engines from Tata Cummins.


Now regarding the Mahindra Mhawk - I have done some work for the block & can assure u that it is very much different from the Tata 2.2 Dicor. To my mind the only thing in common was the fact that they are both 2.2 litre dispalcement engines. Also looks like all our manufacturers are using AVL for the fine tuning & emission certification.

However Mahindra were targeting much tighter production tolerances for this engine and so that could explain the better quality & performance.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

Tata Motors have the following 3 old workhorses:-

1. 697 - original Mercedes design with many changes over time
6 CYL X 97 mm bore. Originally the bore was lesser.( around 75 or 80mm). Originally these were IDI engines & later converted to DI. These are used in the 1210 series and with turbocharging were used in the 1516 & 1312(original 2002 model.) Later on it was given up in favour of the Tata Cummins range of engines. But cost pressure brought the engine back into service in the current 12 tonner series. Now there are CNG & LPG variants and lots of permutation combinations.

The original Mercedes engine license-manufactured by Tata was OM 312. It was an IDI engine with bore= 90 MM & stroke= 120 MM. Displacement was about 4.6 litres. It developed 110 HP @ 3000 RPM.

After expiry of collaboration with Merc, Tata developed a DI version of this engine on its own. In the process, Tata also increased the bore to 92 MM while stroke remained the same, displacement increasing to 4.8 litres. It was designated by Tata as 692. It developed 112 HP @ 2800 RPM and was 15% more fuel efficient than the original Merc engine. It was used in 1210 model.

Afterwards, Tata again rebored the engine to 95 MM, still keeping the stroke at 120 MM. This engine was designated as 695. It developed 120 HP and was used in 1312 model which was launched in 1981, not 2002 as erroneously pointed out by you. Its four-cylinder version was used in 807 LCV which was launched around 1982. No turbo models of this engine were used ever. It was not used in 1210.

As far as 697 is concerned, it is Mercedes OM 352, license for which was obtained in 1970, after expiry of collaboration with Merc, upon payment of lump sum royalty.

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

2. 497 - also from MB. Used in 407 and 709 series of LCVs.

Not quite correct. 407 and 709 use different engines. There are two 497s. The bigger one is used in 709 and is basically a chopped-off 4-cylinder version of 697. It displaces about 3.8 litres.

However, the 497 SP which is used in 407 displaces only 3 litres and was developed by Tata on its own. While the stroke of 709 engine is 128 MM, that of 407 engine is 100 MM.

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

3. 4SP - 4 cylinder engine designed inhouse with a lot of outside inspiration. Used in the Sumo/Safari/207 range of vehicles. Both IDI & DI variants.Again now turbocharged (Sumo Victa Turbo & inbetween the Safari also.).

It's not called 4SP but 483 since the bore is 83 MM. No DI version of this engine exists. 207 DI uses 407's engine (called 497 SP), not 483.

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

Now regarding the Mahindra Mhawk - I have done some work for the block & can assure u that it is very much different from the Tata 2.2 Dicor. To my mind the only thing in common was the fact that they are both 2.2 litre dispalcement engines.

Can you please tell us what are the bore and stroke dimensions of mHAWK? Exactly what are the technical differences between mHAWK and 2.2 DiCOR?

[sridhar-v]

@directinjection

I was mentioning only engines currently in service. But nice to know the history of the 679 family.(that is how I should have designated it!!)
My mistake re the year - yes it was 1981. I checked up with the person who designed the transfer line for the heads & block. THe basic block is the same but was increased in bore from 95mm to 97mm around 15 yrs. ago. Similarly there have been variants of the cyl head also, but the basic casting is the same. They play around with the casting cores to create different models.

4SP is the name by which the engine is known internally at TML.
Interesting to know that there are 2 variants of the 407.

We do not consider an engine as a new model unless the Head or Block is changed. This has to do with the fact that there is very minimal tooling change to produce these variants. Actually TML are very good at producing small quantity variants. A couple of years ago they had got an export order from South Africa & they modified the FA Beam & also tweaked the Engine & a couple of other things. I think the production run was a couple of 1000 vehicles. Foreign manufacturers would faint at the thought of doing changes for such low runs.

Re the Mahindra engine - I do not have the drgs. now as they were returned to the client. So can't help u on that. Will see if I can get the info from my contacts.

[Sutripta]

Distance between centres of the engines? Deck height? Skirt depth?
What is the difference in the weight of the blocks?

It would be very interesting if one could do a side by side stripdown of the engines. With an expert running commentary.

Regards
Sutripta