[BUXX]

Hi,

Had been planning to create a thread on this topic for some time now.

This pertains to a new diesel health study which was jointly organized by the National Cancer Institute (NCI, USA) and the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH, USA); both are apex bodies in their respective fields.

The health effects portions of the research were held up by Congress and several organizations representing the diesel industry. These holds were preventing NCI/NIOSH scientists from submitting their health effects research results to peer-reviewed journals.
The disappointing parts of this hold was the fact, that the study has been ongoing since the 1990s.

Diesel report's publication delayed as industry demands to see documents first - The Washington Post

The papers pertaining to the NIOSH-NCI study of diesel exhaust in miners have now been released.

A nested case-control study of lung cancer reports that for workers exposed to above about 1 mg-yr/m3 respirable elemental carbon (lagged 15 years), the risk was about three times the risk in the lowest-exposed group.
The odds-ratios were greater for never-smokers, but with wide confidence intervals.
This paper is at http://www.oxfordjournals.org/our_jo...rmandjs034.pdf .

An accompanying cohort mortality study found significantly elevated SMRs for lung cancer, esophageal cancer, and pneumoconiosis ( http://www.oxfordjournals.org/our_jo...ielddjs035.pdf ).

Annals of Occupational Hygiene has published the fifth in a series of papers on the reconstruction of the historical exposure at The Diesel Exhaust in Miners Study: V. Evaluation of the Exposure Assessment Methods .

Credits to occhealthnews.net

Bottom line: Diesel exhausts have now been proven to be carcinogenic.

So just back up a bit before buying the next Diesel car

[am1m]

Speaking for Bangalore traffic which I have been a part of for the past 15 years - when we don't even understand simple co-relations like the one between cutting lanes and traffic jams, and that incessant honking doesn't really magically add bhp figures to the car in front of you, I don't know how many of us will really strain our brains over studies that link diesel exhaust to a higher incidence of cancer.

Especially not when we're trying to save money on fuel for our extra-wide diesel guzzlers!

But on a positive note, really great to see posts like this on an automotive forum. Someday we'll get there.

[tsk1979]

Okay, so you are using a study done on 20 year old diesel engines used in Diesel gensets (in mines) to say that diesel exhaust causes cancer?
Yes, diesel NO-X and particulate matter are a problem, but in current engines confirming to california clean air norms, there are particulate filters which tale care of this problem.

If you want to look at more studies, do look at benzene in gasoline exhaust. that also causes cancer, but its irrelevant because CAT-CONS take care of that problem.

[Rahulkool]

One thing i have practically noticed in my house. The parking in my place is open from both end and roof is pretty high, i guess 12ft or more. There are four cars parked at the moment. my petrol palio, new petrol verna, alto and a diesel dezire, I usually clean my car there and if any of the petrol car are moving in or out there is no problem. But if the dezire is started and idle for 30-40 secs you just can't stand there, it sort of suffocating feeling. Altho the parking is open still fumes are there i think. I think all are BS4 cars.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by Rahulkool

One thing i have practically noticed in my house. The parking in my place is open from both end and roof is pretty high, i guess 12ft or more. There are four cars parked at the moment. my petrol palio, new petrol verna, alto and a diesel dezire, I usually clean my car there and if any of the petrol car are moving in or out there is no problem. But if the dezire is started and idle for 30-40 secs you just can't stand there, it sort of suffocating feeling. Altho the parking is open still fumes are there i think. I think all are BS4 cars.

Yes i have noticed this too. Have stood around idling Vento TDi, Swift VDi, Ford Endeavour belonging to friends and have noticed that after a minute or so i just couldn't stand there without feeling dizzy/uneasy. I'm very sensitive to smoke/odor and even petrol cars and have faced similar issue when our i10/AStar idles for some time and i'm in the vicinity, but in case of i10 i can tolerate the smoke for much longer than the Diesels. Apart from the irritating feeling that i get when around an idling Petrol there's not much to it, but with Diesel smoke i feel worse.

Make it a point not to idle your car (Diesel/Petrol) for extended periods when inside your garage/compound especially when kids are there. People tend to do this while giving ICE demos and it doesn't affect (much) the people sitting inside the car, but the smoke gets around and if the compound is not too big or doesn't have enough natural airflow/wind the smoke tends to stagnate and get inside the building.

[BUXX]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Okay, so you are using a study done on 20 year old diesel engines used in Diesel gensets (in mines) to say that diesel exhaust causes cancer?
Yes, diesel NO-X and particulate matter are a problem, but in current engines confirming to california clean air norms, there are particulate filters which tale care of this problem.

I am not sure whether you did read that article or just my post, but the issue is regarding the ultrafine size of the diesel exhaust particulates that ,very crudely explained, act much in the same way as nanoparticles.. On which, cancerous chemicals hitch a ride to the lungs.
California clean air isn't in place in India now, is it ?

And, regarding the period of study.
You can not really expect that the scientific community can immediately gauge the health impact of all chemicals (in-use and being created everyday) , leave alone be able to conclusively prove their detrimental side effects ( if any ) , as soon as they are created.

If you want to look at more studies, do look at benzene in gasoline exhaust. that also causes cancer, but its irrelevant because CAT-CONS take care of that problem.

Yes benzene is a known human carcinogen. and do you know why it is still used? because the antiknocking agent it replaced ; ( Tetra ethyl lead ) was and is considered an even larger evil. So much so, that world bodies now define no minimum/safe exposure limits to TEL ! i.e any exposure to TEL is dangerous.

The intent of the thread is just to create some awareness so that users can see the other side of the coin as well.

@sankar,rahulkool: yes, apparently diesels are worst when idling. I am not aware ,why though..

[mayankjha1806]

This petrol Vs Diesel debate is endless, one emits more CO2 a major contributor to global warming and the other emits more NOx (particulate matter).

So one helps in getting skin cancer (considering global warming causes erosion of ozone layer, leading to higher UV exposure hence skin cancer), and the other lung cancer (because of particulate matter).

Either way we seem to be doomed by excessive use of fossil fuel. More information here (The truth about diesel - www.drive.com.au).

More than one reasons to innovate a newer cleaner fuel tech.

On the diesel idling and feeling giddy, a one hour two wheeler drive through the most busiest streets of bangalore is enough to give me headache through the night, i may not feel giddy but get instant headache.

[yogeshnagpal]

Hi Guys-

Without wanting to create any controversies here, just wanted to let everyone know that I just came across this article from IARC-WHO which states that Diesel fumes are carcinogenic-

http://press.iarc.fr/pr213_E.pdf


There has to be a better way to run vehicles. Looking at the rapid growth of Diesel engines, I feel that developing countries are at a risk of a major health hazard.

All the governments across the world need to start thinking about cleaner fuels (EV's, Hydrogen Cell vehicles).


Cheers,
Yogesh.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Okay, so you are using a study done on 20 year old diesel engines used in Diesel gensets (in mines) to say that diesel exhaust causes cancer?
Yes, diesel NO-X and particulate matter are a problem, but in current engines confirming to california clean air norms, there are particulate filters which tale care of this problem.

I think none of the automobile manufacturer raised objection to the article.

I surely hope that all cars have the filters as you mentioned here.

Having said that, I believe that diesel cars form a very small portion of all diesel engines in use. I believe trucks, DG sets, railway engines and others constitute majorly as diesel engine driven objects and they will keep using diesel even if all of us stop buying diesel cars. These studies will actually make no difference to them.

[mgh]

Technology at any given moment is limited more by cost than availability. Burning fossil fuels, will create pollution. At the moment we are not in a position to use any 'non-polluting' technology as a substitute.
Windmills are eco-friendly, right? Wrong, they affect natural wind currents in the region!
Solar power? You need storage batteries, which have limited life, and whose disposal is a problem because of the poisonous metals used.
Hydraulic power? Dams are supposed to disturb the ecology of the region.
Nuclear power? Safety can be improved, and measures put in place to handle the worst scenarios ( at a cost), but disposal of spent fuel is still a problem.
In short, we do not have a power generation system as yet, which causes no pollution.
It should also be kept in mind that power requirement fluctuates through the day, through the seasons, because of the economy ( when the economy is in doldrums less power will be needed, as many industries will shut down or curtail their operations), and other factors. So buffering and storage also would need safe technologies.
Our choice is either to go back to the dark ages, or to continue to use available technologies, improving them to the extent economically possible, while continuing to look for better technologies.

[yogeshnagpal]

Just read this in today's Times of India. Not specific to Diesel exhausts-

"Toxic car exhaust fumes in small amounts could cure heart disease,scientists experimenting on pig hearts have claimed.British scientists are monitoring the impact of tiny quantities of toxic chemicals found in car exhaust fumes to cure heart disease in pig hearts,the Daily Mail reported.Chemists are using toxic chemicals carbon monoxide and nitric oxide to widen blood vessels and prevent blood clots."

Interesting Study. Every coin has two sides goes perfect with this


Source - ePaper Lite - Times of India Publications


Cheers,
Yogesh.

[sgiitk]

There is no perfectly safe way of running transport. Even with Electric vehicles you move the toxic material production elsewhere - generation centres and battery manufacturing centres. With the big block in Lithium supplies (short production and Chinese monopoly) I am not that optimistic about battery powered vehicles.

[FlatOut]

Originally Posted by mgh

Burning fossil fuels, will create pollution. At the moment we are not in a position to use any 'non-polluting' technology as a substitute.
Windmills are eco-friendly, right? Wrong, they affect natural wind currents in the region!
Solar power? You need storage batteries, which have limited life, and whose disposal is a problem because of the poisonous metals used.
Hydraulic power? Dams are supposed to disturb the ecology of the region.
Nuclear power? Safety can be improved, and measures put in place to handle the worst scenarios ( at a cost), but disposal of spent fuel is still a problem.
In short, we do not have a power generation system as yet, which causes no pollution.

I take it this post belongs in the Joke section? Never read anything so utterly wrong in my life.

Originally Posted by yogeshnagpal

Just read this in today's Times of India. Not specific to Diesel exhausts-

"Toxic car exhaust fumes in small amounts could cure heart disease,scientists experimenting on pig hearts have claimed.British scientists are monitoring the impact of tiny quantities of toxic chemicals found in car exhaust fumes to cure heart disease in pig hearts,the Daily Mail reported.Chemists are using toxic chemicals carbon monoxide and nitric oxide to widen blood vessels and prevent blood clots."

Interesting Study. Every coin has two sides goes perfect with this
Cheers,
Yogesh.

Believe everything you read. I think a small amount of toxic exhaust gas would mean being on a sailing boat, 60km into the ocean.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

There is no perfectly safe way of running transport. Even with Electric vehicles you move the toxic material production elsewhere - generation centres and battery manufacturing centres. With the big block in Lithium supplies (short production and Chinese monopoly) I am not that optimistic about battery powered vehicles.

Bicycles are very dangerous, especially when carrying nuclear waste.


Don't forget it isn't just the soot from a diesel exhaust, but also the burnt remains of the chemical additive cocktail which is used to make diesel work better and not coke up engines, as well as to make it flow better and not froth up as you fill a tank. Look at cancer rates in the UK and USA. It is beyond scary.