[ssenhyd]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Hi,
There is merit in


but otherwise I fully agree with Ford's approach. Eminently sensible. Though one can say playing (too) safe. Anything else, and I would arch my eyebrows!

Regards
Sutripta

Could you provide your thoughts on why you think that this is a sensible decision on behalf of Ford for the new Ford Fiesta Diesel?

I am curious as just going by the sales figures of Diesels in the same category, the Hyundai Verna and Volkswagen Vento are outselling the Fiesta by a large margin. Even Ford's Fiesta Classic is outselling the new Fiesta. Going just by the sales figures of the new Fiesta, it seems to me that at least the Indian consumers think that new Fiesta is not a good VFM and overpriced for what it offers compared to the Vernas and Ventos in the same segment. Here is a link to the auto sales figure analysis for October 2012 http://www.motorbeam.com/sales-figur...ures-analysis/

[vvijay]

Originally Posted by ssenhyd

Is the 1.5L in the engine in the Fiesta only to reduce the excise duty and keep the cost of the car down? Then how come VW and Hyundai have launched a car in the same price range with a more refined 1.6L engine?

Thats where localisation plays a key role you see! Chuck quality, but most of the Fiesta's parts are sourced from suppliers around the globe and I guess this is where it lost to its competitors.

[rambo1o1]

Originally Posted by vvijay

Thats where localisation plays a key role you see! Chuck quality, but most of the Fiesta's parts are sourced from suppliers around the globe and I guess this is where it lost to its competitors.

The engine is fully made in india and exported to other countries like Argentina. I guess the rest of the car is imported. What a way of ruining the brand fiesta which is a great seller all over the world but is in the dumps in India.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by ssenhyd

Could you provide your thoughts on why you think that this is a sensible decision on behalf of Ford for the new Ford Fiesta Diesel?

I am curious as just going by the sales figures of Diesels in the same category, the Hyundai Verna and Volkswagen Vento are outselling the Fiesta by a large margin.

I don't think a cost increase (even if with a better engine) would increase the VFM equation, and thus sales.
Also other than just the product cost itself, there are substantial costs involved with any change. (Supply chain, training, spares availability commitments, etc.) This is quite substantial if spread over a small volume. For what is essentially now a niche product, making it 'nichier' is hardly a solution!

A manufacturer sees India as a market in which money can be made. I don't think any of them see it as a dumping ground. Not in todays highly competitive environment. The fact that given our purchasing power, the appropriate product for our environment is very unlikely to be a SotA product is an unfortunate reality.

OT. I feel a lot of discussions on this thread are based on the Wiki article. However, some of the statements there are too off common sense. So would like to know far more before drawing conclusions. Or giving it too much of weightage.

Regards
Sutripta

[vvijay]

Mod Note : Please use the EDIT or MULTI-QUOTE buttons instead of typing one post after another on the SAME THREAD! To know how to multi-quote, click here.

Originally Posted by ssenhyd

Is the 1.5L in the engine in the Fiesta only to reduce the excise duty and keep the cost of the car down? Then how come VW and Hyundai have launched a car in the same price range with a more refined 1.6L engine?

But ssen, it is now to be noted from our T-Bhp Amaze review that its 1.5 diesel powerplant also joins Fiesta in your worrying fact of downsized engines for India. It is derived from its 1.6 with stroke changes for excise benefits again.

Originally Posted by rambo1o1

The engine is fully made in india and exported to other countries like Argentina. I guess the rest of the car is imported. What a way of ruining the brand fiesta which is a great seller all over the world but is in the dumps in India.

Very true. But even the parts that they put together into an engine are imported largely. Though heard that, for the competitive pricing of the Ecosport, localisation was done on full swing. Now expect the Fiesta's prices to drop again after Ecosport launch?!

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by vvijay

But ssen, it is now to be noted from our T-Bhp Amaze review that its 1.5 diesel powerplant also joins Fiesta in your worrying fact of downsized engines for India.

I think SSen was objecting to the lack of goodies, rather than the capacity change.

Regards
Sutripta

[blackfire_9]

Hey there,

Apologies for the delayed response & in all honesty, the reason was my lack of familiarity with the term "dead volume". That is why I had wanted to first read up a little bit about it, try to understand it & then revert back accordingly for the Ford engines.

To the best of my knowledge, the head of the 1.4 & 1.5 differ firstly in the 1.5 having a better design for enhancing the swirl of the incoming charge. This ensures better combustion & lesser pollutants coming out of the tailpipe.

The second difference is in the size of the valves, with the 1.5 using larger valves. Initially, I had thought that the valves between the 1.6 & 1.5 were of the same size but they aren't, as confirmed by a Ford Technician.

As for the dead volume, I believe it should be smaller than the 1.4 TDCi because the 1.5 TDCi runs a higher compression ratio of about 18.7:1, while the 1.4 runs at 18:1. But please add on if my understanding of dead volume is flawed.

PS: Thanks for correcting the bore measurements.

Originally Posted by Sutripta

These measurements take it a shade above 1500cc. A bit of googling shows that bore should be 73.5 mm.

How does the head differ between the 1.4 and 1.5?
The 1.5 will need a slightly larger dead volume compared to the 1.4. Is it handled in the head or the piston?

Regards
Sutripta

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by blackfire_9

To the best of my knowledge, the head of the 1.4 & 1.5 differ firstly in the 1.5 having a better design for enhancing the swirl of the incoming charge. This ensures better combustion & lesser pollutants coming out of the tailpipe.

This would make it a Rev B. It would also make sense to carry it over (upgrade/ enhancement) to the 1.4. Has that been done?

The second difference is in the size of the valves, with the 1.5 using larger valves. Initially, I had thought that the valves between the 1.6 & 1.5 were of the same size but they aren't, as confirmed by a Ford Technician.

With the 1.6 being a 4 valve design, and the 1.4/ 1.5 being a 2 valve design, certainly the smaller engines will have bigger valves. The 1.5 valve size needs to be compared against the 1.4.

Regards
Sutripta

[blackfire_9]

No, the carryover has not been done & won't be done. As far as I know, Ford does not have any plans on investing further on the 1.4L TDCi unit.
This engine has had its days (though, its still one of the most refined diesels for me, except the noise) & the best that Ford would/can do is to bump its power to about 85-90 bhp, if required.

Also, what's a Rev B?

Originally Posted by Sutripta

This would make it a Rev B. It would also make sense to carry it over (upgrade/ enhancement) to the 1.4. Has that been done?

Regards
Sutripta

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by blackfire_9

Also, what's a Rev B?

Revision B
Previously. Dead Volume -> Volume not swept out. Volume remaining.

(though, its still one of the most refined diesels for me, except the noise)

Meaning?

the best that Ford would/can do is to bump its power to about 85-90 bhp, if required.

That is what I was talking about. The 1.4 and 1.5 essentially being the same engine.

Regards
Sutripta

[blackfire_9]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Revision B
Previously. Dead Volume -> Volume not swept out. Volume remaining.

Thanks for clarifying what the Rev B was all about
But, as far as I know, the 1.5L has always been this way, there was no Version/Revision A.

Also, I didn't understand the context in which you explained the concept of dead volume here. Was it to confirm my understanding of dead volume, since I did not know about it earlier? If yes, thanks a lot buddy; appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Meaning?

When I said that the 1.4 TDCi is still one of the most refined diesels for me, it was based on the personal perception of engine smoothness when compared to the 1.3 JTD (version 1, as sold in India), 1.4 D4D & the 1.5 dCi. The 1.4 TDCi did not feel any less smooth than the other diesel engine options available in similar cubic capacities, except of course the noise & that too primarily at cold start-ups. In fact, I would go out on a limb & say that Toyota's engine (1.4 D4D) felt the worst, but that just may be due to the car I got to drive.

Let me also add that Hyundai's 1.4 felt more refined/smooth.

Originally Posted by Sutripta

That is what I was talking about. The 1.4 and 1.5 essentially being the same engine.

Just include the 1.6 to this list as well.

[ramzsys]

Originally Posted by blackfire_9

,,,,,,,

Having booked a diesel ecosport, i googled up '1.4 tdci/hdi issues' and '1.6 tdci/hdi issues'.

The popular opinion is that 1.4 version is more or less a reliable engine, with the only issue reported being failure of injector seals.

Whereas, the 1.6 has major turbo failures. This seem to arise when the thicker oil(when an oil service is missed/delayed) clogs turbo feed lines and resulting in turbo failure. This is seen as a power loss or no 'effect of turbo'.

So, as concluded in the above posts, i pray hope the 1.5 doesn't have any of the issues of the 1.6 tdci.

[blackfire_9]

First of all congrats & I think that by now, you would have already taken delivery of the EcoSport.

As for engine issues, the engine design in itself is flawless when it comes to these low cubic capcity designs from Peugeot, however, the turbocharger's feed lines are what create a mess more often than not. Just stick to a good oil & get it changed religiously as per the company recommended intervals or maybe even a little earlier (like say at 8K instead of 10K if you have been driving in harsh conditions).

Also, if for any unfortunate reason, a turbo failure happens, its always a good idea to replace the oil feed lines as well. Moreover, such kind of blockage & carbon deposits would definitely start showing signs much before such a serious damage can happen.

Happy driving!

Originally Posted by ramzsys

Having booked a diesel ecosport, i googled up '1.4 tdci/hdi issues' and '1.6 tdci/hdi issues'.

The popular opinion is that 1.4 version is more or less a reliable engine, with the only issue reported being failure of injector seals.

Whereas, the 1.6 has major turbo failures. This seem to arise when the thicker oil(when an oil service is missed/delayed) clogs turbo feed lines and resulting in turbo failure. This is seen as a power loss or no 'effect of turbo'.

So, as concluded in the above posts, i pray hope the 1.5 doesn't have any of the issues of the 1.6 tdci.

[Ashok Naik]

The longer stroke on the 1.5l reminds me of the F8B and F8D engines. The F8D had a longer stroke than the F8B. The engine with a longer stroke was used in some racing gypsies.
Interestingly, Ford has not incorporated new technology in the 1.5l. And the price difference seems huge between the Ecosport 1.5l and figo 1.5l.
No doubt about the 1.6l diesel that is sold in Eurpean markets would be much better.
Why do some car manufacturers "indigenize" their products for India?
VW does not do that. The Polo hatch can easily beat the Ford Fiesta 1.5l.
Ford calls it the Global Fiesta but it is nowhere close to global in terms of engine performance and refinement levels.
Guess the Multijet-2 with a 1.6l engine should be launched by fiat to teach Ford guys a lesson.

Offering sub-par engines to a country where TEAM BHPians live is not a good thing to do!

[Turrrb0]

Guys, if from what I gather in this thread is true (1.4 and 1.5 having similar/identical blocks). Doesn't it mean that the 1.5 can be swapped into the 1st gen Figo?
The old Figo handled brilliantly but was let down by its lack of power.

Imagine a 1.5D 1st gen Figo. Handling + Power = Pure blisss!

Is anyone here aware of this swap being done? Why hasn't anyone done that yet??

Originally Posted by Sutripta

^^^
So the 1.4, the 1.5 and the 1.6 are essentially the same engine family! Variants if you will.

Regards
Sutripta