[sudev]

First a recent experience.

During the last Raid-de-Himalaya on day three I faced a peculiar issue with my Fortuner. It went in to limp mode early morning (rather middle of night) when marshal deployment was happening. During events like Raid marshals deployment happens hours before the actual rally. For instance that particular day the rally leg was to start at 0700 from Kargil and go up to Penzi La and then a return leg from there back to Kargil. Marshal deployment started as two convoys. First leaving Kargil at 0100hrs (yes 1AM) and the second at 0200hrs as they had to do lesser distance.

It is a norm that we fill up the tank every night so that we have adequate fuel range but due to one or the other reason I neglected to do this and had 1/3rd tankful. On ideal calculations it was just about enough for me to get to Penzi La - right at the end of stage - where I was supposed to do the duty. But I would have been running on fumes on the way back before reaching Kargil, the only fuel point in the region. And this also meant no running the engine during the day to heat self. Solace was that I could have borrowed fuel from other marshal's but that was if needed. And just for information at Kargil fuel stations close down at night and only function during the day so there was no way to get fuelled up so early in the morning.

We were at tail of the convoy. After travelling about 30 kilometres just as the rough tracks we stopped for a bio-break (being polite) as is normal we leave the engine idling during such breaks. The temperature was about -1 degree then (we would touch -5 later at higher reaches) and just as we were climbing back in to the car the engine just stalled. I restarted the engine and it started but went in to limp mode. It would not give enough power. After letting the engine off for few minutes re-cranked and it started. But half a kilometre later it again went in to limp mode with engine check light on. The pattern repeated on two next tries.

I used radio to communicate our situation so that the convoy lead should be aware that he is missing one marshal car. Any way there was nothing else to do and under a cold night sky we were admiring a bright stars overhead in pitch blackness on the mountainous country. After doing a ECM reset by removing battery and reconnecting after a gap of two minutes there was no change. The engine would run but after a minute or so would go in to limp mode.

By this time we could hear the radio chatter of the second convoy as it moved up and as it was being headed by Vijay Parmar himself I communicated our problem and his advice was again do ECM reset. But no luck or change in situation.

The second convoy passed us and Vijay and Trigun stopped to see if they could help. They restarted the engine and then pressed the accelerator to red line the engine for almost a minute. This temporarily seemed to resolve the issue. Vijay said just try to keep the engine in higher RMP's and not downshift normally. We started moving and though couple of times the engine stalled we re-cranked it and again build up the RPM's and keep on moving. As it is we were to catch up with the first convoy so we over took and moved fast over the rally stage terrain but the problem disappeared on its own.

Due to delay our position was relocated about thirty kilometres short of original and we made it back to Kargil with just about couple of litres of fuel.

Explanation.
During subsequent discussion the only explanation was water droplets in fuel. Though systems are built into the fuel system to separate water but may be due to extreme cold and constant sloshing of fuel this did not work efficiently. By doing higher RPM run the engine warmed up higher than normal and just caused the moisture flushed out.

Theory.
Almost all long distance drivers suggest that since the new generation cars have constant fuel recirculation the fuel in the tank (and air) become very warm. If the vehicle has traveled a long distance and if the tank is running low on fuel the air inside is warm and due to over night stop at cool temperature any moisture tends to condense inside the tank. SO they always say tank up before parking so that air volume is minimised plus warm air is pushed out reducing chances of moisture condensation.

What do you think?

Normally - not always - as a habit I always tank up at end of long runs before parking and this was one of many exception.

[Kosfactor]

Won't you be getting the water in fuel warning rather than check engine light?
Check engine light can also be due to a combination of dirty air filter+ high altitude.

Totally agree that tank should not be left empty.

[sudev]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Won't you be getting the water in fuel warning rather than check engine light?
Check engine light can also be due to a combination of dirty air filter+ high altitude.

Totally agree that tank should not be left empty.

Water warning comes if too much water gets separated out and collects in the bottom bowl of separator. Here no fuel water light came up. Only had engine check light.

OTOH If it was air filter the problem would have repeated itself as two more days of dusty driving was undertaken without touching the air filter.

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by sudev

Explanation.
During subsequent discussion the only explanation was water droplets in fuel. Though systems are built into the fuel system to separate water but may be due to extreme cold and constant sloshing of fuel this did not work efficiently. By doing higher RPM run the engine warmed up higher than normal and just caused the moisture flushed out.

Does the Fortuner have a "Water in fuel" indicator in the display? If yes, did it glow? What was finally done to solve this problem? Sorry if I missed it somewhere in your post!



Spike

[sudev]

Yes it has....but no light showed up. Our theory is that there was not enough separation due to constant jumps of uneven track (one cannot call it road) and that is why this problem.

[Jeroen]

The theory is correct. Whether it was the cause of the problem we will never know. You guys need to take a proper OBD scanner with you, so you have a better chance of trouble shooting.

It could have been just as well some dirt in the fuel or similar.

The fact that no water came out of the separator at all, is an indication that it was an absolute minute amount of water or something different.

The CEL code would have most likely given you a better idea of what might have caused the problem.

Filling up your tank under these circumstances or for long duration is always a wise thing to do. It helps prevent condensation.

[Samba]

This thread indeed is an eyeopener. Heating up the engine helped in evaporation of the minute water particles do make sense.
In case of bad/adulterated fuel, the limp mode should have persisted till the car consumes up that fuel.

Did any other car faced this issue or all the other cars did a tank full the previous night?

Originally Posted by sudev

First leaving Kargil at 0100hrs (yes 1AM)

From this line i was guessing, can it be the O2 sensor too? High altitude + midnight = lack of oxygen. After a bit of run or oxygen level variation, it settled down?

[Traveler]

Seems unlikely that this is due to condensation. The Fortuner is a well tested vehicle running worldwide in even more cold temperatures. I for one cannot imagine Toyota not having this factor in their testing. I would guess its some impurity in the fuel or the vaccum in the tank getting upset due to the very high altitude. I have been on the same Marshal duty with Vijay on my Pajero and never faced this problem. I was up on the Umbala and Sanala passes and there was no issue. Granted the Pajero has no electronics but water condensation in a sealed fuel system is highly improbable.

Guess an OBD scan should reveal the issue. My guess is low crdi fuel rail pressure or something similar.

Please do let us know what you find.

[wrongturn]

Originally Posted by sudev

What do you think?

Normally - not always - as a habit I always tank up at end of long runs before parking and this was one of many exception.

It happened with my Xylo too in similar conditions near Manali during December 2017. Though I didn't wait for car to go into limp mode, I disconnected vacuum hose on the EGR valve and everything was back to normal. I drove back to the hotel and reconnected it next morning to see if the EGR has gone kaput once again but, didn't face any issues afterwards.

EGR valve was already replaced once prior to the above incident. Symptoms were similar, engine misfire leading to sudden loss in power and than car going into limp mode with check engine light coming on. Interestingly that happened in the winter of January'17 too but in Jaipur and it wasn't exactly too cold. I was advised to removed the vacuum hose in case the same thing happened again to avoid getting stranded on road.

Could there be a relation between EGR malfunction and cold or extremely cold weather?

[Sutripta]

Though all that has been said about water in the tank is correct, doubt that one nights condensation would cause this trouble. Maybe the fuel waxed out and choked the filter?

Water normally gets into the fuel tank because of diurnal changes of temperature and condensation. Not rainwater (though that happened in Ambassadors!) and not usually because bunks are pumping out water. It is a good idea to clean out a tank every two years, esp. if a diesel.

Regards
Sutripta

[Motard_Blr]

I can think of two possibilities, both related to the freezing temperatures:

1: Is it possible that some valve was frozen shut or open leading to the ECU detecting a fault and the problem later solving itself when the frozen water melted?

2: The diesel that you filled up was not formulated for winter usage and the very low temperature caused it to thicken up leading to a fuel system malfunction.

Do check with an OBD scanner to see if a fault history has been stored. If yes, the codes might reveal the cause.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by sudev

After travelling about 30 kilometres...
...the engine just stalled. I restarted the engine and it started but went in to limp mode. It would not give enough power. After letting the engine off for few minutes re-cranked and it started. But half a kilometre later it again went in to limp mode with engine check light on.

They restarted the engine and then pressed the accelerator to red line the engine for almost a minute. This temporarily seemed to resolve the issue. Vijay said just try to keep the engine in higher RMP's...

Explanation.
During subsequent discussion the only explanation was water droplets in fuel. Though systems are built into the fuel system to separate water but may be due to extreme cold and constant sloshing of fuel this did not work efficiently. By doing higher RPM run the engine warmed up higher than normal and just caused the moisture flushed out.

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Though all that has been said about water in the tank is correct, doubt that one nights condensation would cause this trouble. Maybe the fuel waxed out and choked the filter?

If the engine ran 30 km without a hiccup before it stalled, it's very unlikely that either water or diesel gelling would have caused the problem.

Being low on fuel, could it just have been that air was sucked in into the fuel lines while the car was bouncing on the rough road? Or perhaps impurities in the fuel itself, clogging the injectors (which the redlining helped to clear up)? Do you generally use a diesel additive on these high-altitude cold-weather drives, Sudev?

Originally Posted by Jeroen

The CEL code would have most likely given you a better idea of what might have caused the problem.

Indeed.

[sudev]

Originally Posted by Traveler

.

Guess an OBD scan should reveal the issue. My guess is low crdi fuel rail pressure or something similar.

Please do let us know what you find.

And also as mentioned by few others. Post the trip scan was done but no error showed up.

Fuel was already two thirds consumed without problem. And after the few times this happened the balance fuel was also consumed without problems.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by sudev

And also as mentioned by few others. Post the trip scan was done but no error showed up.

Fuel was already two thirds consumed without problem. And after the few times this happened the balance fuel was also consumed without problems.

Since no error codes were recorded, it seems like a glitch for sure. Perhaps the extremely high altitude, freezing temperatures and low air pressure caused the fuel pressure to drop.

Revving up and keeping the engine on a boil would have compensated the fuel pressure loss till you were safely back inside human environments.

OT: The Raid is so much fun. I miss it. Especially the banter on the CB radios.

[sudev]

Originally Posted by Traveler

OT: The Raid is so much fun. I miss it. Especially the banter on the CB radios.

Yes. Perhaps this was the last Raid if one goes by what Vijay Parmar, the chief organiser, said post the event.