How stable are hatchbacks compared to saloon cars.. ??

zaphod · 19th February 2007, 19:35

I don't think that you can generalize hatches and sedans as one category being better that the other. Some factors which will come in to play would be :

1. Suspension setup - stiffer is better but makes regaining control harder once you lose it
2. Body stiffness - stiffer all the way
3. Track - the wider the better
4. Wheelbase - this is one i'm not too sure about - would a car with a longer wheelbase be more stable or will the shorter wheelbase hatch be a snappier handling car ?
5. Weight and weight distribution

If you compare the palio hatch to the adventure, i would say that the adventure is far more stable though it does have a higher tendency to oversteer. (the suspension comes into play here)

Now comparing the baleno and swift, while the baleno might look more stable being lower and longer, the newer design and chassis rigidity of the swift would probably make it the winner in a handling shootout. (note - i have not driven the swift)

I have heard on some website that hatches are ingact more prone to oversteer than saloons which manage to stay composed... all in all it's the overall generation and type of car which would make the difference....

hell to tell the truth i donj't really know myself but would be interested in finding out from people who've driven the hatch and saloon verison of the same car (with no major differences in setup - unlike the adventure and the palio hatch)

zaphod

The Wolf · 19th February 2007, 19:37

Well setup hatchbacks are definitely more stable around corners than saloons with extended rears however straight line stability is in favor of the later

However hatchbacks with longer wheel base and good track to height ratio are the best... Watch WRC, you will gain fair bit of clarity!!!

BUSA · 19th February 2007, 19:39

Have driven both the Aveo and UVA and i can say it clearly that the AVEO handles better then the UVA. Maybe both cars had different tyres and setup!

karthik247 · 19th February 2007, 22:00

@Wolf...
Did u just saw hatchbacks are better around corners!?? I thought the sedans must be better..

@Rehaan...
Yes, all those to play a major role, but i was generally asking in stock condition.

Lets compare 3hot hatchs available now like the Palio, Swift and the Getz/U-VA and get some ideas. And does having the Swift in rallying mean its really stable n capable?

theMAG · 19th February 2007, 22:39

Its akin to stating short people are more likely to trip than taller ones. The futility of that statement harks for itself.

The following factors alone determine the stability of a car - not its usage category:

1. Wheelbase is an important factor determining the stability of a car. Longer the stabler.

2. Chassis type: the other equally crucial factor. Different types of chassis include Monocoque, Backbone,Tubular Space Frame, Carbon Fiber Monocoque, Aluminium Space Frame and Ladder. Some are deployed in the highest echelon cars such as a Mclaren F1/Ferrari F50. Most roadgoing regular/performance cars use the Monocoque chassis structure. Lotus uses a proprietary Aluminium Space Frame chassis for optimum combination of rigidity and weight reduction.

3. CG: Lower the CG stabler the car.

4. Track: Wider the better.

5. CD: Lower the CD, better does the car slice thru the air and grip the road. A WRC car is optimized until its CD cannot go below 0.24

Rarified concepts such as downforce dont play a perceptibly active role in regular road cars as they do in rally/F1 cars.

Closer to home: I drive a Swift with 195/55 R15 tyres. The roads into our offices are highways - straight and curved. I maintain an avg speed of 80 kmph with many turns taken at well more than that. The car refuses to budge laterally and moves as if it were on rails.

1100D · 19th February 2007, 22:51

The question should be "[SIZE=3]How stable are hatchbacks compared to corresponding saloon cars.. ??" [/SIZE]

Because comparing a swift to a lancer is almost like comparing Wagon R to Palio, they are all completely different cars. So everything being similar does the addition of the boot add stability is what we should think of.

The best Couple for this comparison is the Palio 1.6 vs the Petra.

Its the Palio that offers an agile handling the Petra though offering a better ride but has some handling constraints , like the extra weight at the back trying to bring the rear out of line. Infact for some unknown reason the front too washes a bit wide on the Petra.

The Indica vs Indigo battle though would go the other way thats because the Indigo rear suspension is not offered in Indica's offered here. But I am sure (as the export models have) with a similar setup the Indica will be very agile, offering no less stability.

mithun · 21st February 2007, 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by theMAG

5. CD: Lower the CD, better does the car slice thru the air and grip the road. A WRC car is optimized until its CD cannot go below 0.24

What is meant by CD ???

deepakhon · 21st February 2007, 06:54

Coefficient of drag I believe.

aah78 · 21st February 2007, 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by mithun

What is meant by CD ???

as theMag has explained above - CD is the Drag Coefficient.
in simple terms it's the amount of air-resistance a car faces while in motion. the lesser the resistance, the lesser the amount of fuel consumed to reach a certain speed.
manufacturers strive to keep this value as low as possible - design dependant.

desigNation · 21st February 2007, 08:52

hey guys wanted to know how good the stability is of palio 1.6?is it better than an ohc?just an argument with a friend of mine who owns a palio1.6,100bhp, he says its got better stability than an ohc.

msdivy · 21st February 2007, 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by desigNation

hey guys wanted to know how good the stability is of palio 1.6?is it better than an ohc?just an argument with a friend of mine who owns a palio1.6,100bhp, he says its got better stability than an ohc.

Stability at what speed?

Floyd de Souza · 21st February 2007, 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by desigNation

hey guys wanted to know how good the stability is of palio 1.6?is it better than an ohc?just an argument with a friend of mine who owns a palio1.6,100bhp, he says its got better stability than an ohc.

Having driven both cars at 140kmph+, I can say that, in stock trim, the Palio is more stable and confidence inspiring.

desigNation · 21st February 2007, 14:41

floyd- thanx for the info,i was wrong there.

nbr · 23rd February 2007, 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by desigNation

hey guys wanted to know how good the stability is of palio 1.6?is it better than an ohc?just an argument with a friend of mine who owns a palio1.6,100bhp, he says its got better stability than an ohc.

Don't be under the impression that sedans r always better bet on highways. Hatchbacks like PALIO, CORSA sail, r better than most hyped sedans.

The Wolf · 23rd February 2007, 03:22

Hey hey... we all should understand all the aspects theMag has posted, its fairly conclusive except 2 things, the CoD(Coeficient of Drag) which is relative for a passenger car when it comes to handling and also 'theMag dude' its not true that longer the wheelbase the better is the stabillity!!! The best handling machines given a race track are those which resemble a go Kart which basically has a box like frame, extremely low CoG, super stiff suspension to control body roll and well needless to say extremely good track to height ratio.

Comparing one car to another in passenger car segment is infact meaningless as each is set up for a puspose by the manufacturer. The cars with best handling might not have the best of ride quality due to its suspension setup... The manufacturer sacrifices one or more things to gain another coz most of the common people consider a car to be a mode to commute and nothing more than that!

I understand that here the comparison is between 2 completely stock cars however if one has to compare these same 2 cars with slightly tweaked suspensions, the situation could sing a completely different story.

Anyways getting back to the crux of the discussion, it all sums up to 5 things for a passenger car:
1) Track to height ratio(Breadth:Height)
2) Centre of gravity(CoG)
3) Wheel base
4) Suspension setup
5) Tyre choice

Just to answer why hatchbacks feel more stable than sedans is coz they donot have a boot which makes them less prone to oversteer which is the 2nd biggest enemy when it comes to high speed cornering after understeer in most front wheel drives.

19th February 2007, 19:35	#16
zaphod BHPian Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: NO IDeA/Madurai Posts: 236 Thanked: 4 Times	I don't think that you can generalize hatches and sedans as one category being better that the other. Some factors which will come in to play would be : 1. Suspension setup - stiffer is better but makes regaining control harder once you lose it 2. Body stiffness - stiffer all the way 3. Track - the wider the better 4. Wheelbase - this is one i'm not too sure about - would a car with a longer wheelbase be more stable or will the shorter wheelbase hatch be a snappier handling car ? 5. Weight and weight distribution If you compare the palio hatch to the adventure, i would say that the adventure is far more stable though it does have a higher tendency to oversteer. (the suspension comes into play here) Now comparing the baleno and swift, while the baleno might look more stable being lower and longer, the newer design and chassis rigidity of the swift would probably make it the winner in a handling shootout. (note - i have not driven the swift) I have heard on some website that hatches are ingact more prone to oversteer than saloons which manage to stay composed... all in all it's the overall generation and type of car which would make the difference.... hell to tell the truth i donj't really know myself but would be interested in finding out from people who've driven the hatch and saloon verison of the same car (with no major differences in setup - unlike the adventure and the palio hatch) zaphod
	() Thanks

19th February 2007, 19:37	#17
The Wolf Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,118 Thanked: 71 Times	Well setup hatchbacks are definitely more stable around corners than saloons with extended rears however straight line stability is in favor of the later However hatchbacks with longer wheel base and good track to height ratio are the best... Watch WRC, you will gain fair bit of clarity!!!
	() Thanks

19th February 2007, 19:39	#18
BUSA Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bombay Posts: 5,130 Thanked: 20 Times View My Garage	Have driven both the Aveo and UVA and i can say it clearly that the AVEO handles better then the UVA. Maybe both cars had different tyres and setup!
	() Thanks

19th February 2007, 22:00	#19
karthik247 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: BLR, HYD Posts: 2,710 Thanked: 30 Times	@Wolf... Did u just saw hatchbacks are better around corners!?? I thought the sedans must be better.. @Rehaan... Yes, all those to play a major role, but i was generally asking in stock condition. Lets compare 3hot hatchs available now like the Palio, Swift and the Getz/U-VA and get some ideas. And does having the Swift in rallying mean its really stable n capable?
	() Thanks

19th February 2007, 22:39	#20
theMAG Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: May 2006 Location: Avon, CT Posts: 7,217 Thanked: 1,807 Times View My Garage	Its akin to stating short people are more likely to trip than taller ones. The futility of that statement harks for itself. The following factors alone determine the stability of a car - not its usage category: 1. Wheelbase is an important factor determining the stability of a car. Longer the stabler. 2. Chassis type: the other equally crucial factor. Different types of chassis include Monocoque, Backbone,Tubular Space Frame, Carbon Fiber Monocoque, Aluminium Space Frame and Ladder. Some are deployed in the highest echelon cars such as a Mclaren F1/Ferrari F50. Most roadgoing regular/performance cars use the Monocoque chassis structure. Lotus uses a proprietary Aluminium Space Frame chassis for optimum combination of rigidity and weight reduction. 3. CG: Lower the CG stabler the car. 4. Track: Wider the better. 5. CD: Lower the CD, better does the car slice thru the air and grip the road. A WRC car is optimized until its CD cannot go below 0.24 Rarified concepts such as downforce dont play a perceptibly active role in regular road cars as they do in rally/F1 cars. Closer to home: I drive a Swift with 195/55 R15 tyres. The roads into our offices are highways - straight and curved. I maintain an avg speed of 80 kmph with many turns taken at well more than that. The car refuses to budge laterally and moves as if it were on rails. Last edited by theMAG : 19th February 2007 at 22:41.
	() Thanks

19th February 2007, 22:51	#21
1100D Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Calcutta Posts: 4,390 Thanked: 4,096 Times View My Garage	The question should be "[SIZE=3]How stable are hatchbacks compared to corresponding saloon cars.. ??" [/SIZE] Because comparing a swift to a lancer is almost like comparing Wagon R to Palio, they are all completely different cars. So everything being similar does the addition of the boot add stability is what we should think of. The best Couple for this comparison is the Palio 1.6 vs the Petra. Its the Palio that offers an agile handling the Petra though offering a better ride but has some handling constraints , like the extra weight at the back trying to bring the rear out of line. Infact for some unknown reason the front too washes a bit wide on the Petra. The Indica vs Indigo battle though would go the other way thats because the Indigo rear suspension is not offered in Indica's offered here. But I am sure (as the export models have) with a similar setup the Indica will be very agile, offering no less stability.
	() Thanks

21st February 2007, 06:54	#23
deepakhon Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,441 Thanked: 65 Times	Coefficient of drag I believe.
	() Thanks

21st February 2007, 08:52	#25
desigNation BHPian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: calicut Posts: 661 Thanked: 51 Times View My Garage	hey guys wanted to know how good the stability is of palio 1.6?is it better than an ohc?just an argument with a friend of mine who owns a palio1.6,100bhp, he says its got better stability than an ohc.
	() Thanks

21st February 2007, 14:41	#28
desigNation BHPian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: calicut Posts: 661 Thanked: 51 Times View My Garage	floyd- thanx for the info,i was wrong there.
	() Thanks

23rd February 2007, 03:22	#30
The Wolf Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,118 Thanked: 71 Times	Hey hey... we all should understand all the aspects theMag has posted, its fairly conclusive except 2 things, the CoD(Coeficient of Drag) which is relative for a passenger car when it comes to handling and also 'theMag dude' its not true that longer the wheelbase the better is the stabillity!!! The best handling machines given a race track are those which resemble a go Kart which basically has a box like frame, extremely low CoG, super stiff suspension to control body roll and well needless to say extremely good track to height ratio. Comparing one car to another in passenger car segment is infact meaningless as each is set up for a puspose by the manufacturer. The cars with best handling might not have the best of ride quality due to its suspension setup... The manufacturer sacrifices one or more things to gain another coz most of the common people consider a car to be a mode to commute and nothing more than that! I understand that here the comparison is between 2 completely stock cars however if one has to compare these same 2 cars with slightly tweaked suspensions, the situation could sing a completely different story. Anyways getting back to the crux of the discussion, it all sums up to 5 things for a passenger car: 1) Track to height ratio(Breadth:Height) 2) Centre of gravity(CoG) 3) Wheel base 4) Suspension setup 5) Tyre choice Just to answer why hatchbacks feel more stable than sedans is coz they donot have a boot which makes them less prone to oversteer which is the 2nd biggest enemy when it comes to high speed cornering after understeer in most front wheel drives. Last edited by The Wolf : 23rd February 2007 at 03:30.
	() Thanks