CNG vs LPG Comparision

esteem_lover · 14th March 2007, 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by double

Hi,
I have a doubt. Where fuel fill opening will come for LPG if it is not factory fitted. Is it necessary to cut the car for that ? or every time shall i have to open by boot for filling it ?

Option 1 : - Cut the car body with a circular cutter
Option 2: - Have it inside the boot
Option 3 (mine) : - Keep it right next to the petrol inlet within the same chamber.

wolfinstein · 14th March 2007, 21:06

@ GTO, The average is calculated from empty cylinder to the max the car can go..! I always empty the cylinder ( Till the time the needle is not zero and the car starts missing) then I fill her up, On an Average 9 Kg of gas @ 19.20 per Kg. the car travels around 162 Km to 165 Km. At regular conditions including Bumper to Bumper, Switch off at red lights, Speeds of 50-60 Kmph @ 1500-1900 RPM with No power drop or pickup issues except in sudden pickup from low speed.

extreme_torque · 14th March 2007, 21:14

@wolf... I was talking to one of the workshop who does the CNG conversion, he quoted me 44k's for Palio 1.2 with the timing advancer and lambda sensor. Is the price Ok? He also told me that most of the people dont install the full kit and hence have problems with pick up and average.
The complete kit is with the timing advancer and the lambda sensor and they add around 10k's to the overall cost.

wolfinstein · 14th March 2007, 21:24

Ya if its 44 k for the complete Kit with 12 Kg cylinder. You could also pay 1000 rupees to get it endorsed on the RC, However with the Palio-The ARAI has not yet come with the Approval, I'm not sure I had enquired about this a month or two back was told it will come by March, If it has then go for it.

Also get the Insurance IDV Raised with the CNG install. It will protect you from any untoward incident.

My XETA is still running without the Lamda, With no issues-occassional Check Engine light...Deep XETA 1.2 GVG has the complete system in place you could take a feedback from him.

gigy · 15th March 2007, 08:59

cng cylinder holds only 12(200kms)kg while lpg of the same size almost holds 48(450kms)liters. performance drop in cng is more than lpg.this is why i opted for lpg.
lambda sensor output is given to a ecu module to regulate the gas mixture, this keeps the cat converter in good shape and since ecu is regulating it is more efficient than human tuning.

GTO · 15th March 2007, 09:58

Quote:

On an Average 9 Kg of gas @ 19.20 per Kg. the car travels around 162 Km to 165 Km.

Thats like 18km / kg and about a buck a kilometer! Wow. Is this the Indica CNG?

mail4ajo · 15th March 2007, 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by gigy

lambda sensor output is given to a ecu module to regulate the gas mixture,

Gigy, Is it possible to retrofit this lambda sensor with ECU on an existing LPG setup? What could the associated cost be?

wolfinstein · 15th March 2007, 14:05

Ya Mine is Indica XETA GLG 1.4..!

This performance drop..again and again...Its not something which is so evident, something which does not allow you to drive easily...I agree there is a performance drop when you need sudden pickup, but the lag is hardly a big drawback...!

extreme_torque · 15th March 2007, 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfinstein

Ya Mine is Indica XETA GLG 1.4..!

This performance drop..again and again...Its not something which is so evident, something which does not allow you to drive easily...I agree there is a performance drop when you need sudden pickup, but the lag is hardly a big drawback...!

Can this problem of not having sudden acceleration be taken care of by installing the complete kit ie Lambda sensor and timing advancer et all.

wolfinstein · 15th March 2007, 14:26

I have the Timing Advancer and it helps a lot, If you read my speed ratings with CNG, The slow pickup happens only in situations where you shoot from say 60 Km to 10 km, however any drop above 40 has almost no change in pickup...! The Advancer Helps for improving sudden pickup..! Lamda will help in Auto Setting, More FE as only required gas is pumped in,Right Mixture to prevent Lamda Error..!

extreme_torque · 15th March 2007, 14:35

Thanks a lot for all your help wolf.

gigy · 15th March 2007, 18:07

my installer said it will cost about 6k to install the ecu,stepper motor and lambda sensor, the circuit also takes input from throttle position sensor. it can be integrated into most of the mpfi kits to make it a closed loop one.he told me its not required... why spend more for better emission control...but in long run i think it will be good for the cat converter since if tuning is not correct too much of unburnt fuel can harm it. i will get it after my alloys come. one guy in kandivili said 10k more for making system closed loop.

SirAlec · 16th March 2007, 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by gigy

my installer said it will cost about 6k to install the ecu,stepper motor and lambda sensor, the circuit also takes input from throttle position sensor. it can be integrated into most of the mpfi kits to make it a closed loop one.he told me its not required... why spend more for better emission control...but in long run i think it will be good for the cat converter since if tuning is not correct too much of unburnt fuel can harm it. i will get it after my alloys come. one guy in kandivili said 10k more for making system closed loop.

Dude! 6k for ECu, motor and lambda sensor.....!!! just 6k..

i suppose if ur car is mpfi...it already has an ecu, lambda sensor....and whole lot of other sensors...
to my best of knowledge..following are the addition for cng conversion..
1. Pressure Regulator.
2. Petrol Solenoid Valve
3. On-Off valve and refueling conc.
4. Control Module/Change-over Switch (i thnk ur mechanic meant this)
5. CNG level Indicator (led lights wala)
6. Gas carb
7. CNG cylinder
8. Petrol hose
9. gas hose
10. Ignition advancer
11 cable wagarah
12. Pressure gauge

did i missed anything and correct me if i am wrong............

agar lpg hai to ek do item kam hoga....

wolfinstein · 16th March 2007, 11:26

Gigy already has an LPG System in his car...the additional parts are to make it into a closed loop system with ECU Controller, Stepper motor, Lamda Sensor which in total will cost around 6 K +- 1 K.

mail4ajo · 16th March 2007, 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfinstein

Gigy already has an LPG System in his car...the additional parts are to make it into a closed loop system with ECU Controller, Stepper motor, Lamda Sensor which in total will cost around 6 K +- 1 K.

How do I source these components?. My Kit importer BRC refuses to provide this separately. They sell the entire unit for 35K.

14th March 2007, 21:06	#32
wolfinstein BHPian Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New Delhi Posts: 994 Thanked: 20 Times	@ GTO, The average is calculated from empty cylinder to the max the car can go..! I always empty the cylinder ( Till the time the needle is not zero and the car starts missing) then I fill her up, On an Average 9 Kg of gas @ 19.20 per Kg. the car travels around 162 Km to 165 Km. At regular conditions including Bumper to Bumper, Switch off at red lights, Speeds of 50-60 Kmph @ 1500-1900 RPM with No power drop or pickup issues except in sudden pickup from low speed.
	() Thanks

14th March 2007, 21:14	#33
extreme_torque BANNED Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 4,461 Thanked: 5,534 Times	@wolf... I was talking to one of the workshop who does the CNG conversion, he quoted me 44k's for Palio 1.2 with the timing advancer and lambda sensor. Is the price Ok? He also told me that most of the people dont install the full kit and hence have problems with pick up and average. The complete kit is with the timing advancer and the lambda sensor and they add around 10k's to the overall cost.
	() Thanks

14th March 2007, 21:24	#34
wolfinstein BHPian Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New Delhi Posts: 994 Thanked: 20 Times	Ya if its 44 k for the complete Kit with 12 Kg cylinder. You could also pay 1000 rupees to get it endorsed on the RC, However with the Palio-The ARAI has not yet come with the Approval, I'm not sure I had enquired about this a month or two back was told it will come by March, If it has then go for it. Also get the Insurance IDV Raised with the CNG install. It will protect you from any untoward incident. My XETA is still running without the Lamda, With no issues-occassional Check Engine light...Deep XETA 1.2 GVG has the complete system in place you could take a feedback from him.
	() Thanks

15th March 2007, 08:59	#35
gigy Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: mumbai Posts: 1,321 Thanked: 47 Times	cng cylinder holds only 12(200kms)kg while lpg of the same size almost holds 48(450kms)liters. performance drop in cng is more than lpg.this is why i opted for lpg. lambda sensor output is given to a ecu module to regulate the gas mixture, this keeps the cat converter in good shape and since ecu is regulating it is more efficient than human tuning.
	() Thanks

15th March 2007, 14:05	#38
wolfinstein BHPian Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New Delhi Posts: 994 Thanked: 20 Times	Ya Mine is Indica XETA GLG 1.4..! This performance drop..again and again...Its not something which is so evident, something which does not allow you to drive easily...I agree there is a performance drop when you need sudden pickup, but the lag is hardly a big drawback...!
	() Thanks

15th March 2007, 14:26	#40
wolfinstein BHPian Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New Delhi Posts: 994 Thanked: 20 Times	I have the Timing Advancer and it helps a lot, If you read my speed ratings with CNG, The slow pickup happens only in situations where you shoot from say 60 Km to 10 km, however any drop above 40 has almost no change in pickup...! The Advancer Helps for improving sudden pickup..! Lamda will help in Auto Setting, More FE as only required gas is pumped in,Right Mixture to prevent Lamda Error..!
	() Thanks

15th March 2007, 14:35	#41
extreme_torque BANNED Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 4,461 Thanked: 5,534 Times	Thanks a lot for all your help wolf.
	() Thanks

15th March 2007, 18:07	#42
gigy Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: mumbai Posts: 1,321 Thanked: 47 Times	my installer said it will cost about 6k to install the ecu,stepper motor and lambda sensor, the circuit also takes input from throttle position sensor. it can be integrated into most of the mpfi kits to make it a closed loop one.he told me its not required... why spend more for better emission control...but in long run i think it will be good for the cat converter since if tuning is not correct too much of unburnt fuel can harm it. i will get it after my alloys come. one guy in kandivili said 10k more for making system closed loop.
	() Thanks

16th March 2007, 11:26	#44
wolfinstein BHPian Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New Delhi Posts: 994 Thanked: 20 Times	Gigy already has an LPG System in his car...the additional parts are to make it into a closed loop system with ECU Controller, Stepper motor, Lamda Sensor which in total will cost around 6 K +- 1 K.
	() Thanks