[maverick_driver]

Originally Posted by Maverick5490

If the car had given a 'Low Oil Pressure' warning, then it does not mean the oil level is low. It's possible that the oil pump which is driven by the chain is not developing enough pressure and might have caused the engine to seize due to oil starvation over a period of time, in this case the engine will not turn with the starter. If the starter was turning and not starting, then possibly the timing chain has given way.

@maverick_driver: Insist on a detailed report for cause of engine failure.

Absolutely intend on doing that. I’m now reconciled to the issue and Skoda’s lackadaisical attitude. If they had shown a better customer approach, it would have appeased a customer to some extent. But now, I am determined to make them give a proper detailed explanation and report on this. The more they shy away from this, points more to their shady and non customer centric ways, proving that they really don’t actually care about the customer. Hence, now, they have to come good on the issue.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by maverick_driver

The service guy mentioned in a conversation that the timing chain probably has jumped causing damage? I’m not too familiar with that - is it possible

Agree on this notion that 100k kms is a lot of mileage. And a supposed engine failure put down to number of kms as per Skoda is just not acceptable.. they have to give the cause of failure. Have they figured and it leads to a lapse at the service or previous repair? Probably... hence the apprehension..

The service guy did mention on the phone that the timing chain had jumped ... is that common and possible ? For a car that’s services regularly and 2 months prior to the incident had undergone Skoda’s 10th year service and check up!

A couple of thoughts and comments. From what you have described it is totally unclear what is really the problem with your engine. And I think you are right in pressing the Skoda folks to come up with a solid answer.

It is certainly possible for a timing chain to jump a tooth. Especially as already mentioned there are some known problems with the tensioners of this particular engine. So one of the important questions, has either the timing chain and or the tensioner been replaced before, and or was it due for a replacement in line with Skoda’s recommended service intervals.

I will say one thing though, if the timing chain had jumped a tooth, your friend would have noticed. The timing of your valve train will be off. It will immediately affect the engine performance and also the sounds. See also below. Even if your friend had not noticed, a good technician will pick up the sound immediately!

Originally Posted by maverick_driver

So my question on the timing chain jumping? Why would this happen. I mean they would have checked all of this in the 10th year service just two months prior.
There has to be a reason for this because as far as I know - it is not a very common occurrence

Tensionerss and chains/belts rarely get inspected for two reasons. On most engines it is a considerable job getting at them. Or at least being able to get at them in a meaningful way. Two, these parts are supposed to last a long time without inspection. So they tend not to get inspected, rather replaced long before normal wear and tear becomes a problem. But, see below, it is really important they do get changed out at the specified interval.

I am not that familiar with Skoda on this tensioner problem. But many manufacturers have had problems in the past and quite a few engine received one or more upgrades over the engine life time. Maybe somebody has the insight here as to how Skoda deals with that. Sometimes these upgrade are provided free of charge on not too old cars. My beloved Jaguar X308/XJR with it supercharged V8 has seen four variants of tensioners before Jaguar got it right!!

Originally Posted by srini1785

Even then how does a timing chain failiure lead to " Engine failiure ". All you need to do to replace the chain , or in most cases the entire kit , that mean both sprockets , the OHC , timing chain and be done with it. For a high end car its around 80k-90k. I fail to understand the 5.8L estimate.
.

Whether a timing chain, or belt, failure leads to an engine failure depends primarily on the type of engine. If it is a so called interference engine, it will allows lead to massive failure.

From Wikipedia:

An interference engine is a type of 4-stroke internal combustion piston engine in which one or more valves in the fully open position extends into any area through which the piston may travel. By contrast, in a non-interference engine, the piston does not travel into any area into which the valves open.

So if the timing chain or belt fails on an interference engine it will mean one or more pistons slamming into one or more opened valves. Which will cause massive damage to pistons, valve, valve glands/bearing, camshaft, bearings etc.

I don’t know whether this particular engine is an interference engine or not. But the number of interference engines is on the rise due to the requirements of having increasing smaller engines produce more output.

A non interference engine with a broken timing chain/belt will supply turn around when cranked, but won’t start (because the camshaft won’t move)

An interference engine with a broken timing chain/belt will not turn around when cranked. It will behave as if seized, which it effectively is, with pistons stuck against bend valves.

For those that want to have some idea of what it takes to replace a timing chain have a look at my “fiddling with cars thread”

The prep work:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/diy-d...ml#post4440201

The actual replacement of the chain and tensioner:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/diy-d...ml#post4444769

Note: we messed up the installation. Somehow we managed to get the chain one tooth out of alignment where it should be! Notice the sounds!. This is the same effect as a jumped tooth!

Jeroen

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by maverick_driver

So my question on the timing chain jumping? Why would this happen. I mean they would have checked all of this in the 10th year service just two months prior.
There has to be a reason for this because as far as I know - it is not a very common occurrence

In a typical periodic service what is done is
-> Replace engine oil and filter
-> Replace air and cabin filter
-> Change spark plugs
-> Replace fuel filter if needed
-> Check all lights for proper working
-> Replace transmission oil if needed
-> Bleed brakes if needed
-> Flush and change coolant if needed
-> Do underbody inspection and tighten all the bolts.

This is the standard SOP
No service center will look at the status of a part like a timing chain/belt that is inside the engine and not visible to inspect. So your question of "Why they did not check for this aspect when I had given for service" the answer is above.

Unless the customer specifically asks to check and address and specific aspect that, the service guys do not look at it.

[Altocumulus]

Originally Posted by srini1785

Last and final noob question : Why don't you do what bikers do in such cases. Just remove two /three links in the chain and forget the tensioner.

The chain can expand or retract with temperature changes or time. The tensioner is spring loaded which ensure the tension on the chain is kept constant so that it doesn't slack too much leading to it jumping teeth.

The Skoda/VW Tsi tensioners between 2009 and 2011 had a tendency to fail, in which the spring collapsed or broke off leading to excess slack in the chain. This in turn led to the chain jumping 3-4 teeth and destroying the engine depending on the amount of slack.

[maverick_driver]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

A couple of thoughts and comments. From what you have described it is totally unclear what is really the problem with your engine. And I think you are right in pressing the Skoda folks to come up with a solid answer.

Wow thanks! That was super insightful.
Skoda India in the least needs to give a proper explanation and insight on this failure. Everything else currently seems secondary

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by maverick_driver

So my question on the timing chain jumping? Why would this happen. I mean they would have checked all of this in the 10th year service just two months prior.
There has to be a reason for this because as far as I know - it is not a very common occurrence

A nicely done video about a hydraulic timing chain tensioner , as well as what may have happened to your vehicle.

https://youtu.be/WyYsgZ5GLX8

So either a failed timing chain tensioner or inadequate oil pressure has caused the timing chain to hit the oil pan, creating a leak. This leak while being fixed the Skoda technician would have ignored what caused the leak and eventually the failed timing chain has slipped off due to the same failed hydraulic tensioner.

Timing chain is hard to get to in a longitudinal mounted RWD engine itself, for transverse mount setup they literally have to pull everything out of the engine bay. The customer is not going to be happy paying for something like that anyways.

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by Altocumulus

The chain can expand or retract with temperature changes or time..

I don't think that temperature has anything to do with the chain since these are made of hardened heat treated steel. Its , IMO, a poorly designed chain tensioner which is at fault.

At the risk to going i wonder why the bevel gear operated cam shafts went out of fashion ( or is it still used?). It is certainly a more advanced mechanism than a chain pulley. The whole tensioner thing can be avoided.

Looks beautiful in bikes like these.

MotoGuzzi:





Jawa 650 Twin

[vishwasvr]

Sorry to hear this about your beloved car.

The 1.8 TSI engines are riddled with such inherent issues.

Having worked on multiple 1.8 TSI (mostly Superb) engines, I've realised one thing, that they need extra TLC once they hit the 70-80k Km mileage.

In your case, the timing tensioner most likely was the issue. I've had this on one particular Superb which the exact same issue. But problem was sorted post replacement of the tensioner.

Hope your car is back on its feet soon!

[Jhinchak]

maybe you should show this to the Skoda officials.

where a Innova has completed 10 lakh kms and still running.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ilometres.html (13-year old Innova completes 10 lakh kilometres)

[gaurav.kokra]

I would advise you keep updating this thread with pictures and videos of your findings.

There are a lot of knowledgeable people here and they will support you much better than what Skoda would do.

I wanted to ask one question. If the timing belt skipped one or more teeth, you might have noticed a changed engine sound. Very abnormal for the normal sound.

Were you able to observe this just before the failure?

Also, if the timing belt would be off, the starter sound would also be different than normal.

Just go through this video by one of the Mechanics on youtube. He is good as what appears from his videos.

The video is about the aftermath of a broken timing belt. Might give you some insight as what might have happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rate...eshchandragond

In the above video, the rockers had broken. The estimated damage in the video to the customer was Rs. 14000 as said.

Request you to keep updating this thread and showering knowledge as regards to what would have happened.

Wish you get speedy recovery and in a cheap manner.

[KKapadia]

Sorry to hear about your dilemma. After reading your post and the following comments, its a case of the timing chain tensioner being the culprit. ( Official Skoda statement awaited ). If such is the case I do not think you would require a compete engine replacement. The engine did not crank due to a seized cam/bent rocker/bent valve. You would basically need an upper engine rebuild. It can be costly but not to the extent of replacing the entire engine. VW cars have rugged engine blocks, a compression test to verify would not be possible in your case, but any experienced mechanic would be able to remove the cylinder head to give you an estimate of the damage which has occurred to the valves, guides, rockers or the cam. And at the same time just by visually looking be able to tell you if the lower half of the engine has any damage or not. (Mostly unlikely to be damaged).

[nagarjun]

About couple of years back when I gave my Vento TSI for a service, i saw the Low engine oil pressure warning lamp immediately as I drove off from the service center.
The service advisor came with a mechanic and checked and assured me that it was just a sensor problem, just wiped something and told me I am good to go. I had a long trip planned for next morning and said ok as I wanted to get home early and pack for the trip. But somehow I was not convinced and the warning came back again after I drove another 1km or so.

This time I took it back to service center and the service advisor again gave some lame analysis that it needs oil top up, but I insisted on having a detailed check and it turned out that the rubber seal was not fixed properly. Its not just low oil warning, but a low pressure warning, so I was not ready to accept the 'oil top up fix'.

I later realized that if I had driven on as advised by the SA, the engine would have seized.

I am not an expert on this, but I think the warning was an indication to something not quite alright.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by nagarjun

Its not just low oil warning, but a low pressure warning, so I was not ready to accept the 'oil top up fix'.

Actually it never was a low oil level warning at all. Just a low oil pressure warning.

Low oil can cause low oil pressure but the latter can be caused by other factors too as you experienced. This includes poor installation of parts, choked filters, oil pump failure among others.

The point i am trying to make is never wait for the low oil pressure warning light to glow before checking oil levels. An oil level check is part of regular checks and maintenance by to be done by the owner in that time period between manufacturer recommended services.

[Maverick Avi]

Every time I see such a post my heart just breaks. My 2011 Alto bought at measly 2.7 lakhs on road has never failed me despite of not being immaculately maintained for the past 4 years(my wife drives it more often now ). And then there are these prized possessions who get all the care and end up like this. Is it so hard for these famed companies to provide reliable vehicles despite of costing a bomb?

[Pashin]

My 2 cents:

Get the vehicle out of the service center. Any chance of getting this issue sorted while retaining the current engine lies outside the purview of Skoda and the authorized service center. It may sound like a paradox but thats how things work in our beloved country. Find a knowledgeable FNG and see if the car can be brought back to life.