[prguru]

Prelude: I have a preowned duster RXZ AMT 2016 model which was bought in June 2020 and at the time of buying it had clocked 69000 kms on the ODO. All the services were carried out by the A.S.S itself I got the annual service done at the A.S.S at 74000 kms and the current ODO reading is 76390.

I recently got the anytime warranty for 1 year for which I paid 29165, I could not get the normal anytime warranty (costs about 19000) since the previous owner had missed two service intervals and got it serviced a little late hence, I had to go for Improper Service Anytime Warranty by paying 10k extra.

Recently while driving I noticed some engine noise, took it to the FNG mechanic and had a test drive with him and made him hear the sound but he could not pinpoint the issue and he was the car to be left at the service center to take a look. Since I had an active warranty, I denied and took it to the A.S.S on 30th March. They checked and said that due to engine heat the crank shaft oil seal bulged causing engine some oil to fall on the timing pulley and thereby changing the engine timing itself.

Since I had warranty, I asked them if that can be repaired under warranty but they denied. The reason given – the previous owner had not agreed for the entire coolant to be flushed and fresh coolant to be added at 60000 kms as per the maintenance schedule and that the engine got heated due to this (car had max level coolant which was topped up) and bulged the crank shaft seal making the oil to fall on the pulley. Since this issue is related to coolant they denied to repair under warranty.

It gets interesting here: when I spoke to the SA, he said if the coolant had been flushed and fresh coolant added, it would have retained its viscosity and ensured the engine temperature remained under control but since the coolant was topped up, it has lost its viscosity and could not keep the engine temperature under control which caused the crank shaft seal to bulge.


I asked him these questions:

1) If the engine temperature got so high, why did I not get a temperature warning or why was there no error code on the OBD for which his justification was that the temperature did not get so high to setup a warning on the Dashboard but got high enough to bulge the crankshaft oil seal.

2) How did he conclude that the topped up coolant had lost viscosity, asked him if he had run any tests to prove that but he had no answer to that but said it is based on their experience they know it is due to topped up coolant.

The SA sent me the below images:

A gap can be observed as marked in the third image on the crank shaft which was never communicated to me.

I told them that I will take a look at the car and decide what to do next. Visited the A.S.S on 2nd April and to my surprise I see that everything was closed and car was out of the ramp. I asked them why they have closed it up when I clearly told them that I need to take a look but they said they cannot keep it like that. I got suspicious of their behavior so got the car back.

After that I dropped an email to the S.A and the service manager to give me in writing or in an email on what diagnosis was carried out and how was it concluded that it had happened due to coolant not being replaced at 60000 kms to which till date they have not given a reply and have been beating around the bush and asking me to visit the A.S.S.

I dropped an email to few having top posts at Renault but even after two days there is no call or even an email from anybody asking what is going on. Have raised two complaints from their website (case numbers) but nobody got back and if I call their toll free number, the customer representative says they are looking into it and somebody will get back.


I really do not think the oil seal bulged due to coolant and also thought the timing should not jump just because some amount of oil falls on the timing belt ( engine oil level is at max ) and that just to deny warranty they are linking it to coolant.

Please comment if this could be a coolant issue or due to any other factors or if anybody has come across this kind of a scenario where timing itself changed.

[ruzbehxyz]

Thanks for sharing.

I am not an expert or automobile engineer but here are a few points.

1. What all is covered in the anytime warranty which you have taken ? If this is covered then you can fight for it.

2. If the previous owner had not changed or done something which was mandatory in the service, why did the company issue you with the warranty if they did not want to honor it?

What I understand is that if anything would have happened to the engine, they would somehow turn it on to the coolant and not accept the warranty. This is clear foul play.

I am sure experts here will guide you but these are my two questions.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by prguru

They checked and said that due to engine heat the crank shaft oil seal bulged causing engine some oil to fall on the timing pulley and thereby changing the engine timing itself.

] when I spoke to the SA, he said if the coolant had been flushed and fresh coolant added, it would have retained its viscosity and ensured the engine temperature remained under control but since the coolant was topped up, it has lost its viscosity and could not keep the engine temperature under control which caused the crank shaft seal to bulge.

Sorry to hear about all of this. It is a bit messy I am afraid. I think you have asked some good questions,

Couple of thoughts/comments. Viscosity is completely irrelevant when it comes to old and new coolant. Maybe something gets lost in translation here?

The main reason for changing out coolant and a flush is to ensure any rust and debris in the coolant system comes out. Also, the coolant will, over time, loose it’s ability to prevent corrosion. So, yes a coolant system needs to be flushed and re-filled with fresh coolant in accordance with the manufacturing recommended maintenance practice.

Yours went well over 10.000 km over the recommended interval. I would think it unlikely for anything as dramatic as overheating to place, but that will be difficult to prove. That’s unfortunate, but it will be difficult to argue.

The rust and other debris can settle in places within the engine and or radiator. Which means in certain spots the cooling will not be optimal. Your Engine Coolant warning light measures the temperature of the coolant circulating through the engine. But that is sort of average temperature. If say, one cylinder is partly blocked to scaling, that will simply not affect the temperature of the coolant.

Again, I think it is unlikely to be the case, given it is still a relative low mileage engine. But you can see why your S.A. is adement. He does have a point in terms of the coolant should have been replaced.

However, I am not so sure there is any correlation between the the crank shaft seal failing and the coolant as such. Unless there was a massive cooling problem, this seal won’t fail. There is no cooling around the seal. The seals operates at whatever the engine casing/oil temperature are. In order for it to fail, the temperature of the engine and oil would have to be sky high and you would have been looking at some very serious engine damage. Not just a seal.

Additionally, I don’t understand how the oil leak can cause the timing to be off. It looks like the oil leaked onto the crankshaft sprocket. That is toothed timing belt. It won’t slip it can only jump a tooth. And it will only jump a tooth if the belt was not tensioned properly, or was stretching too much due to wear. Not sure when this belt needs changing?

I am not quite sure what this gap on the photo is supposed to be indicating? I am not familiar with this engine, can the crankshaft sprocket somehow change its orientation? (in which case the timing would be off too).

I don’t understand why they claim the timing is off. Is that gap some indication as to how the sprocket needs to be aligned? Perhaps other members more familiar with this particular engine know?

Here is my take and summary:

• Viscosity in coolant is not a factor.
• Coolant flash and refresh not done, can cause engine cooling problems in due course. Not very likely to have caused any problems yet though.
• There is no solid explanation as to why the seal bulged
• There is no solid explanation as to why the timing would be off

good luck

Jeroen

[theMandarin]

Originally Posted by ruzbehxyz

2. If the previous owner had not changed or done something which was mandatory in the service, why did the company issue you with the warranty if they did not want to honor it?

+1 to this.

Irrespective of the technical reason behind this problem, the warranty extension shouldn't have been issued if the car was not compliant.

When they were enlightened enough to charge you an extra 10K for some missed services, it's their responsibility to validate such things before agreeing to an extension.
Isn't the extra cost meant to cover the additional risk to them due to the "improper service"?

You are responsible to ensure compliance to the maintenence schedule after extension.

I feel this should be part of your argument.

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by prguru

...
It gets interesting here: when I spoke to the SA, he said if the coolant had been flushed and fresh coolant added, it would have retained its viscosity and ensured the engine temperature remained under control but since the coolant was topped up, it has lost its viscosity and could not keep the engine temperature under control which caused the crank shaft seal to bulge.
....

This is total BS. The coolant viscosity doesn't matter here. The coolant is supposed to cool the engine, not lubricate parts. (may be the water pump).

An engine should run perfectly fine and not overheat even on normal water. Ask the service center guys to give it in writing that because an old coolant was there in the system (read: coolant level is right) the engine overheated.

So sad to see the very place which is supposed to help us, cheat us so blatantly.

[prguru]

Originally Posted by ruzbehxyz

.

1. What all is covered in the anytime warranty which you have taken ? If this is covered then you can fight for it.

Pretty much everything including Gearbox, fuel injectors, fuel pumps should be covered except probably suspension.

2. If the previous owner had not changed or done something which was mandatory in the service, why did the company issue you with the warranty if they did not want to honor it?

Sorry I forgot to mention in the first post, the SA took 3-4 days to check history and told me that since coolant was not replaced as per schedule and if any issue comes wrt coolant it will not be approved. At that time itself I had told him that it should not be assumed that I drove with out any coolant and that every issue I report should not be linked to coolant and the same is happening now

What I understand is that if anything would have happened to the engine, they would somehow turn it on to the coolant and not accept the warranty. This is clear foul play.

I am sure experts here will guide you but these are my two questions.

Isn't the extra cost meant to cover the additional risk to them due to the "improper service"?

You are responsible to ensure compliance to the maintenence schedule after extension.

I did ask the same question that they charged extra plus it is clearly saying anytime warranty with improper service but still they go on repeating the same story.

This is total BS. The coolant viscosity doesn't matter here. The coolant is supposed to cool the engine, not lubricate parts. (may be the water pump).

An engine should run perfectly fine and not overheat even on normal water. Ask the service center guys to give it in writing that because an old coolant was there in the system (read: coolant level is right) the engine overheated.

I had the same question that many vehicles run on water and in some Honda cars the coolant change interval is 1 lakh kms I think. In fact BHPian Tgo also pointed to the same, he said coolant cools the cylinder block and if it were to become so hot to bulge the seal at the lower block of the engine it would have easily triggered a high temperature warning.

So sad to see the very place which is supposed to help us, cheat us so blatantly.

Yes, when I went and asked if I could opt for anytime warranty they were so helpful in getting me pay and gave me a picture that if I claim for any repairs it will be approved within minutes.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Sorry to hear about all of this. It is a bit messy I am afraid. I think you have asked some good questions,

I am not sure and seems they are also not sure and they are not able to provide proper explanation when I asked them how.

I would have accepted if they had provided a logical explanation but they are trying to take the customer for granted. I asked them if they are so confident about their findings either give it in writing or send that in an email but they are not ready to do that and that itself shows their story is not true.

The timing belt was changed at 64000 kms during the routine service.

From what I have understood : The constantly turning pulley has caused a play on the cam shaft, ideally when the pulley is locked on the cam shaft there should not be any gap at all. If there is any gap that can cause a jump in timing since it alters the way the pistons work. I am not sure how this play came, I suspect something was not done properly during the 64k service when timing belt was changed.

There should not be any gap/play on that shaft and I think the bigger teeth like thing is the lock to secure the pulley on the shaft and a bolt will be fixed to keep them together.

Jeroen

I had asked few questions to the service advisor which are listed below for which he has not provided any answer, have sent him multiple mails but there is no answer to any of these yet.

• Please explain how it was diagnosed and concluded that it was a coolant issue thereby denying my claim for repair under warranty. What observations made you say that the issue happened due to coolant not being flushed and replaced at 60000k kms ?
• Is the issue found only with engine and timing pulley
• How much was the timing out, was it by 1 tooth or 2 or more
• I was not shown what happened, when I visited on Friday everything was closed up
• Was the issue shown to a Renault Cotech? If yes please share his email id / contact number
• Who is the person from the Renault warranty team who denied warranty ? If the communication happened on the email, please forward me that email otherwise share his official email id.

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Ask the service center guys to give it in writing that because an old coolant was there in the system (read: coolant level is right) the engine overheated.

Have asked them multiple times to give in writing or send in email but they are not ready for it.

[Kosfactor]

From what I can see, the water pump is driven by the timing belt - Why was the timing belt changed ahead of Schedule? Perhaps the water pump failed and overheated the engine. While fixing this they have changed the pump and belt.

The timing belt change process was not done properly and now it looks the way it is. A leaking seal wont send a locking pin out of whack as seen in the picture.

I do not think the repair is costly, forget about the extended warranty for now, fix this and get the car back ASAP.

[viXit]

Originally Posted by prguru

Have asked them multiple times to give in writing or send in email but they are not ready for it

Kindly escalate this to the dealership top brass. Be stubborn and ask to meet everyone up till the owner.

The fact that they are not willing to share anything in writing itself points to there being some wrongdoing or misdiagnosis.

Make it amply clear that this thread is here to stay on the internet for everyone to see. It is up to them to save their reputation. Share this thread's URL on the E-Mails you address to the Renault management.

[sameerpatel90]

I feel so sorry to hear about your incident. But wait, what!!?.

The dealership is blabbering some serious nonsense here. If I had to believe and go with the theory, why wasn't the head gasket go damaged and the coolant must have mixed with engine oil and there must also be some evidence of coolant seepage at least on some part of the engine.

I have worked with Renault vehicles for over 2 years in the after-sales division as ASM & technical coordinator and haven't seen timing being changed due to not changing the coolant and sealant expanding.

I suggest you to check the vehicle history and look for when was the replacement of accessories belt and timing belt was performed for 60k PMS (periodic maintenance service). It might a serious case of negligence by the technician and their whole service team (which includes Floor In-charge, Final Inspector, SA & SM), also demand for Job sheet to scrutinize the inputs mentioned by technician and has all the inspection criteria's are fulfilled genuinely. The reason why I mentioned this blunder is that, timing failure cannot noticed just by driving the car, as these days ECM's are designed to self correct certain performance parameters and one among is the timing.

There are many days when such issues occur due to negligence by even senior technicians and the whole team together either makes a fool out of customer or in the rare cases manager accepts their mistake and get things straight by baring all the expenses at dealer's end.

The above details are just one of many aspects and I may be wrong too. It is hard to explain with one picture, as this incident needs some time to investigate what actually went wrong. The timing cover must be removed to check for the origin of oil leak and thorough inspection of other connecting components for any consequential damages, comparing parameters with OK vehicle to understand what deviations are projected by ECM. May be the timing belt might have slipped due to improper cleaning while refitting and etc.

Please do update on this at the earliest convenience. Do not loose your cool this time and with all the patience please build and maintain the pressure on both the company and dealer for repairing the vehicle at their cost by any means. Also, try to reach out to the dealer principle if you have sources. The customer relations team have false promised for just making a business with your situation for extended warranty.

[sameerpatel90]

Originally Posted by prguru

I had asked few questions to the service advisor which are listed below for which he has not provided any answer, have sent him multiple mails but there is no answer to any of these yet. [/list]

The gap what we see from the photograph is nothing but the design itself of the gear is done with a groove.

If you can visit the dealer once more, this time with a motive not just to check the 60K service job card but also the last service too. The dealer seems to be playing a scapegoat here.

With regards to the point where the dealer speaks about previous ownership it is absolutely irrelevant to the current owner. As a new owner you have got everything checked and replaced with respect to regular service. IMHO, I believe it is A.S.S team who neglected with overconfidence on purpose to thoroughly inspect serviced vehicles prior to delivery.

[prguru]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

From what I can see, the water pump is driven by the timing belt - Why was the timing belt changed ahead of Schedule?

For Duster, major service is at 60k kms where timing and drive belt needs to be changed so it was as per schedule

The timing belt change process was not done properly and now it looks the way it is. A leaking seal wont send a locking pin out of whack as seen in the picture.

Yes even I strongly believe this should not happen.
Two things which SA says do not add up here IMO:

• Oil seal should not bulge due to coolant
• Even if oil leaks on the timing belt it should not change the timing as it is secured firmly by the pulley, locking pin and secured by a bolt

I do not think the repair is costly, forget about the extended warranty for now, fix this and get the car back ASAP.

The approximate numbers I got is - if it is a repair it will cost about 1.8-2L and if it is major then the engine needs to be replaced which is approximately about 4L.

[Mr.Boss]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

I do not think the repair is costly

It is not just the damaged Oil seal & pulley that may need replacement, any change in timing will result in many other part failure including valves, pistons, and the entire head as well (depending on the severity of damage)

I assume the repair estimate should be nothing less than a 6 digit figure

EDIT: Just noticed this

Originally Posted by prguru

The approximate numbers I got is - if it is a repair it will cost about 1.8-2L and if it is major then the engine needs to be replaced which is approximately about 4L.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by prguru

For Duster, major service is at 60k kms where timing and drive belt needs to be changed so it was as per schedule

The approximate numbers I got is - if it is a repair it will cost about 1.8-2L and if it is major then the engine needs to be replaced which is approximately about 4L.

No man. The timing belt is not the same as drive belt which drives the accessories. Timing belt change is at 1.2-1.3L Kms. 60,000 is the drive belt change, we have a duster in our group, its about to get the timing belt changed as its nearing 1.3L Kms.

See you have DRIVEN the car into the shop, which means its not disabled. If there is head damage or bent valves, you would know it by now. In this case please fix the sprocket connected to the crank and see if that fixes the problem. FNGs are familiar with K9K since cabbies have them, may as well look at that route and save some money.

[SideView]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

No man. The timing belt is not the same as drive belt which drives the accessories. Timing belt change is at 1.2-1.3L Kms. 60,000 is the drive belt change, we have a duster in our group, its about to get the timing belt changed as its nearing 1.3L Kms.

See you have DRIVEN the car into the shop, which means its not disabled. If there is head damage or bent valves, you would know it by now. In this case please fix the sprocket connected to the crank and see if that fixes the problem. FNGs are familiar with K9K since cabbies have them, may as well look at that route and save some money.

For 2015+ models, i think the timing belt change is recommended at 60k.

I though over time we should see improvement in quality but Renault seems to be going backwards.

[prguru]

Originally Posted by sameerpatel90

I suggest you to check the vehicle history and look for when was the replacement of accessories belt and timing belt was performed for 60k PMS (periodic maintenance service). It might a serious case of negligence by the technician and their whole service team (which includes Floor In-charge, Final Inspector, SA & SM), also demand for Job sheet to scrutinize the inputs mentioned by technician and has all the inspection criteria's are fulfilled genuinely.

The problem is the previous owner was getting it serviced at another A.S.S(Whitefield branch) and after buying the car I gave it to another A.S.S (Mysore road branch) since this is near to where I stay. Another reason why they are trying to cook up some story is probably because of this, negligence caused by another center and the other center has to repair under warranty. Will try to contact the SA from the other center where timing was changed and demand the job sheet, will post updates on this .

This is from the invoice copy of the previous service at 64k kms when timing was changed.

Originally Posted by sameerpatel90

The gap what we see from the photograph is nothing but the design itself of the gear is done with a groove.

I think that gap will hold the pulley but there is some amount of play on the pulley when it is connected to the shaft.

If you can visit the dealer once more, this time with a motive not just to check the 60K service job card but also the last service too. The dealer seems to be playing a scapegoat here.

Not sure how much they will help but will try it.

Originally Posted by viXit

Kindly escalate this to the dealership top brass. Be stubborn and ask to meet everyone up till the owner.

The fact that they are not willing to share anything in writing itself points to there being some wrongdoing or misdiagnosis.

Make it amply clear that this thread is here to stay on the internet for everyone to see. It is up to them to save their reputation. Share this thread's URL on the E-Mails you address to the Renault management.

Have dropped another mail to the top brass to help investigate this, will also look for the branch heads etc to take it to them. And yes will send them this link as well.