[ashwinprakas]

Hey Guys,

From the time I've got the Alto there's one thing that has been bothering me and it is the off-idle throttle response.

At times the throttle response is noticeably delayed and this only happens off-idle, say that I'm driving and face traffic so the car slows down to the point of a halt and then when I shift into 1st and try to launch the car the accelerator input is delayed which results in lugging and stalling, I have adapted to this by slipping the clutch a little too much and going on and off the throttle till it responds.

This is not consistent in the sense this happens out of the blue.

Did a lot of research and found that the reason for it is that DBW accelerators are tuned for FE and Emissions and as a result there would be delays at times.

However coming from Cable operated Accelerators I simply cannot get over this mentally.

I did reset the throttle body via OBD a while ago and idled the car for about 3 minutes as advised by fellow enthusiast Sibun, however I was unable to drive it enough to make sure that the issue has been completely resolved.

Do share your thoughts.

Regards,
A.P.

[GTO]

Never noticed it in 90% of the 30 - 40 new cars I drive every year. This might be specific to Maruti's tuning of the engine / drive-by-wire. What I do hate though is the intentional rev-hang that a few cars have for emissions purposes. It is damn, damn annoying. Don't remember which car, but I did observe it in one of the Renaults.

[Bibendum90949]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

I have adapted to this by slipping the clutch a little too much and going on and off the throttle till it responds.

Did a lot of research and found that the reason for it is that DBW accelerators are tuned for FE and Emissions and as a result there would be delays at times.

I face similar delay in throttle response in my MPFI Gypsy too. Not sure if it's the same thing what you've explained. I too go on and off the throttle till it responds to the input, not more than 2 seconds at max. This doesn't happen every single time. I cleaned the throttle body once to observe if there's any improvement but this issue(if one many call it as one) still persists.

But then if the system is designed to respond in that fashion, I guess no amount of playing with throttle press is going to help - still I do it

[clevermax]

Some companies overdo this 'smoothening out' of the quick throttle inputs to save on fuel. This is not an inherent latency of the drive-by-wire itself. Even if you stamp on the pedal, the system will condition the input to smoothen it out in time to optimize fuel usage and to take care of emissions. This is what I had learned from some reading up and talking to the tuner during my car's tuning process. This behavior can be corrected only by an ECU tuner. You should talk to one of the reputed tuners. I think this falls into the category of "pedal tuning".

When corrected, you can expect instant throttle responses.

[Kosfactor]

How is your fuel economy? Is it consistent from the time you bought it?

If yes it is probably the delay built into the system as we have noticed from the BS4 days. Those who drive diesels daily won't necessarily notice it but if you drive a carb car for a few days it is more obvious.

[Sandman689]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

However coming from Cable operated Accelerators I simply cannot get over this mentally.

I know exactly how you feel. Electronic throttle bodies takes away the direct connection with the engine. Now it's like I have to draft a mail requesting the engine that I wish to change gears and waiting for approval.

I wish they had an eco button for all this. When turned off, the driver would get direct response.

Originally Posted by GTO

What I do hate though is the intentional rev-hang that a few cars have for emissions purposes. It is damn, damn annoying. Don't remember which car, but I did observe it in one of the Renaults.

The V Cross has this annoying rev hang which took me a while to get used to. I was used to shifting fast(on the cable operated Tavera) as not to let the revs drop down more than they need to. The V Cross transmission didn't like being jerked out by high revs and so now I change gears like an old truck driver


I believe only remedy is and ECU re-tune.

[akshay4587]

I am using one of these Throttle Controllers in my Alfa Romeo 159 in Australia.
I just love this device; It does not increase the power or makes your car faster, but the way it let's you fly off the line, the moment you mash the pedal is amazing.

https://www.ultimate9.co/au/throttle-controllers

I am planning to get it for most of my vehicles on the next trip, especially for thar.

[saket77]

Originally Posted by GTO

Never noticed it in 90% of the 30 - 40 new cars I drive every year. This might be specific to Maruti's tuning of the engine / drive-by-wire. What I do hate though is the intentional rev-hang that a few cars have for emissions purposes. It is damn, damn annoying. Don't remember which car, but I did observe it in one of the Renaults.

Learnt something new today and perfectly explains the rev behavior in my 8th gen Honda Civic. I always thought that there must be some minor issue with my car but learnt today that it is intentional and also why it is done.

While I adjust pretty quickly to the clutch and brake settings between my cars, but I experience this rev hang much frequently than I would have liked while gear shifting in the Civic. This is one thing which I haven't adapted perfectly even after years of driving it.

[IshaanIan]

There is a thread on a product called "PedalTune" on this very forum. It is supposed to help with lag in throttle response this is something I feel in nearly all cars these days. Some cars are worse than others and it seems like Maruti is the most notorious when it comes to throttle delay on their DBW cars. It makes driving difficult, rev matching becomes an unnecessarily extra calculated process etc. I suppose the best way to sort it out is with an ECU tune or one of these products that tricks the system into cutting the delay and decreasing response time.

[sandeep.menon]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Hey Guys,

Did a lot of research and found that the reason for it is that DBW accelerators are tuned for FE and Emissions and as a result there would be delays at times.

Great thread! I have not yet observed a throttle response delay in any of the cars I have driven so far, but am not surprised if such a thing is happening for real.

I think this is only going to be the precursor to a number of similar observations over the next few years, as more and more software take over decision making in the modern automobile.

I often think of this topic, and I reckon this boils down to two larger philosophical questions:

1. Do you like having more software in your car that take decisions on behalf of you?
2. Is more software (taking decisions instead of human drivers) good for automotive performance or safety in general?

Clearly, these are not expected to be binary answers, and context will play a huge role in determining whether software must be allowed to take decisions instead of the human driver in a certain circumstance.

Legal minds around the world will have their take on the matter too.

I personally feel that any such software must clearly declare to the human driver the 'mode' or 'setting' or 'decision making bias' it is set to, by the manufacturer.

It must then allow the user to change this 'setting' or 'bias' to a different setting or bias, as desired by the human driver.

Many auto software systems at the moment can be 'reset' either via OBD or by simply turning off power supply (disconnecting the battery) for an extended period of time. They then 'learn' the driver's driving pattern and 'adapt' themselves.

Good times ahead for auto enthusiast coders though!

[MinivanDriver]

I would suggest the OP to try driving 2 or 3 other cars of the same make and model. This would help narrow down if it is a problem with his car alone or is it by design in all cars of the same make and model. Then only take any further steps. There could be an issue with the sensors or wiring that may need diagnosis and rectification.

[arjithin]

Originally Posted by akshay4587

I am using one of these Throttle Controllers.

Same here, I use another brand called iDrive. it hardly takes 15 minutes to install in a DIY way. I speculate that the device programming is not car specific but the connectors are manufacturer specific.

[akshay4587]

Originally Posted by arjithin

Same here, I use another brand called iDrive. it hardly takes 15 minutes to install in a DIY way. I speculate that the device programming is not car specific but the connectors are manufacturer specific.

iDrive is now Ultimate9, they changed their name last year.
They still sell the same EVC controllers. Yes Device programming is similar across the whole range, what's different is the connector type which is manufacturer dependent. Like Throttle Controller meant for XUV, can be used on Thar Crde as well.

[1.2TSI7DSG]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Hey Guys,

From the time I've got the Alto there's one thing that has been bothering me and it is the off-idle throttle response.

At times the throttle response is noticeably delayed and this only happens off-idle, say that I'm driving and face traffic so the car slows down to the point of a halt and then when I shift into 1st and try to launch the car the accelerator input is delayed which results in lugging and stalling, I have adapted to this by slipping the clutch a little too much and going on and off the throttle till it responds.

This is not consistent in the sense this happens out of the blue.

Did a lot of research and found that the reason for it is that DBW accelerators are tuned for FE and Emissions and as a result there would be delays at times.

However coming from Cable operated Accelerators I simply cannot get over this mentally.

I did reset the throttle body via OBD a while ago and idled the car for about 3 minutes as advised by fellow enthusiast Sibun, however I was unable to drive it enough to make sure that the issue has been completely resolved.

Do share your thoughts.

Regards,
A.P.

A check is also on the clutch release sensor which is supposed to prevent the slip.
Try rolling in first gear and standing on the accelerator. There you will understand whether there is delay in the calibration or it is the clutch release sensor delaying the fuel delivery to protect clutch wear

[ashwinprakas]

Thank you guys for sharing your thoughts.

I drove around in Mumbai traffic after resetting the Throttle Body via the OBD and this could be placebo but i believe the car is responding a tad bit better off idle, the intentional lag is still there however the random dead spots seem to have been taken care of or at least I feel so.

Would be driving to Nasik and back tomorrow, will get a good chance to see how things are.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

How is your fuel economy? Is it consistent from the time you bought it?

Yes, FE is consistent based on driving style and conditions, can be anywhere from 14~24kmpl.

Originally Posted by MinivanDriver

I would suggest the OP to try driving 2 or 3 other cars of the same make and model. This would help narrow down if it is a problem with his car alone or is it by design in all cars of the same make and model. Then only take any further steps. There could be an issue with the sensors or wiring that may need diagnosis and rectification.

This noticeable lag was there on a couple of cars I've driven including the Test Drive piece, many simply don't notice it though when pointed out, the showroom person simply didn't get what I was getting at.

This is even there with our BS6 Bolero, but only noticeable during clutch and throttle transitions against load, the technique I use to overcome the same is to entirely depend on the idle assist.

Originally Posted by 1.2TSI7DSG

A check is also on the clutch release sensor which is supposed to prevent the slip.
Try rolling in first gear and standing on the accelerator. There you will understand whether there is delay in the calibration or it is the clutch release sensor delaying the fuel delivery to protect clutch wear

Thank you, I didn't know that such a sensor existed, would talk with a buddy of mine from MS to confirm whether the same is present in my Alto.

Guess there are a lot of new modern additions that I need to update myself with.

Thanks all.