[RahulNagaraj]

Thanks to Jaideep Singh for sending this in. Heartfelt gratitude for sharing it with other enthusiasts via this Team-BHP share page!

Hello Car Enthusiast,

I will be highlighting some very important information regarding service/maintenance costs associated with Maruti’s AMT system. My purpose is only to educate people as AMT is a fairly new technology in the Indian market and a lot of cars must now be out of warranty. I do not want to bash any manufacturer but to make the people aware of the ownership of an AMT car.

My Background

I am a young marketing professional, I started my corporate career in 2014 and was travelling to Gurgaon from Delhi daily during peak hours (people of NCR must be knowing how bad was the traffic back in 2014-15). Initially, I used to travel by my bike Yamaha FZ, but due to the long commute time and some back pain, I decided to buy my first car.

In 2015 I purchased Wagon R VXI AMT, I got a pretty good deal as I purchased it in December and took the delivery on 31st December 2015 (On-Road < 5lakhs with extended warranty). The car was Oct 2015 manufactured.

The Issue

I was the sole user of the car, never experienced any issues with the gearbox or the clutch that most of the AMT users were experiencing, one of the reasons for this was that there was no load on the car, just 1 person (me). The car performed well till the lockdown happened in March 2020. Till then I have covered 52K KM all in NCR traffic

During the lockdown, like most others, I was doing WFH and the car was sparingly used. I started travelling to work in February 2022 and from here on the problem started.

When I resumed work I experienced a sudden increase in the gear shifting noise, I took it as normal wear and tear of the clutch and assumed that the car requires a new clutch and ignored it for a couple of days. In one or two instances the car refused to shift when starting early morning but a little warm-up is enough to engage it in Drive mode. But as the days proceeded it was becoming obvious to me that time has come to replace the clutch as the car just turns itself into Neutral when driving moreover transmission light also comes and goes on in the instrument cluster. It was a serious safety concern. I took the car to Maruti service station Naraina as this is owned directly by Maruti and not by any dealer.

The Shock

As my service advisor was inspecting the engine bay I noticed black oil on top of the gearbox where the AMT unit is placed, after seeing that my service advisor told me that the AMT unit has gone bad and needs to be replaced, he also told me that this is a common occurrence in AMT, especially with 1.0 L K series engine. As the car is now in its 7th year it was out of extended warranty as well.

He initially gave me an estimate of 6K for Piston Set Clutch Actuator Kit + Labor, this is a workaround, if changed some AMT units get a second chance at life, but unfortunately, mine was not the one. The cost of a new AMT unit is Rs 72K including labour. I had no other option but to get it replaced as the car was not usable and was only a pile of junk at this time.

The total cost includes the AMT unit and clutch parts etc. Cost me a whopping Rs 83K (bill attached)

I also inquired outside to see what was the cost difference but I was not able to get hold of any FNG who has replaced/repaired the AMT unit, I just got one quotation from a transmission repair shop that deals in luxury cars of 50K but he was not able to answer me from where he will source a new AMT unit.

Converting to manual

A lot of people suggested I convert it into manual as the gearbox and other components are the same and I also believed that this is something that can be done. I started researching and what I found out was really shocking, though the gearbox is the same as the manual there are some significant differences in how the gear engagement works and also the linkages are totally different. So the gearbox is not identical though they are similar. Moreover, you need to get a new/reused manual gearbox along with an ABC petal set along with a good scanner that can bypass the ECU to convert it to fully manual.

Conclusion

The car is back with me and is performing as good as it was new, but the dilemma is still there in my mind, should I keep it or sell it off. This experience has taught me a lot about how an AMT unit works and trust me once there is an issue in the AMT unit the only other option is to get a new one. Also, the AMT is not made for Indian traffic conditions.

What I would suggest the manufacturer is to reduce the price of AMT units/give the option to the customers to at least convert to manual. It does not justify investing such a huge amount on a new AMT unit in an out of warranty car.

I really hope that this information will help the people visiting this forum to make a sound decision in selecting if they want to go with an AMT equipped car or a conventional automatic.

[GTO]

The lamest transmission to ever be sold in India. It's jerky, slow, offers poor performance, overheats on inclines, has way too many issues (see the list of complaints here) and costs a bomb in long-term repairs. We have this 83 grand bill for a Maruti owner, while a Tata Nexon owner ended up with a 71,000 quote.

For your peace-of-the-mind, smoothness, performance & reliability, please pay the Rs 50,000 extra at the time of car purchasing and buy a proper torque-converter or CVT gearbox.

The only two benefits of AMT are the low cost to entry (but clearly not low cost in the long term) and FE. However, owners pay too high a cost for that, which is simply not worth it. If it was just about the money, we'd all sell our cars and roam around in public transport.

Seriously, buy a proper automatic! 88% of BHPians said they'd happily pay more for a proper AT over the dumb AMT. In another poll, merely 4% of BHPians voted for the AMT.

[sunikkat]

Originally Posted by RahulNagaraj

Thanks to Jaideep Singh for sending this in.

The AMT gearbox in a humble Wagon R cost 84k for replacement. And all the blame is only taken by poor DSG

On a serious note feel bad for the owner, that is almost 20% of the cost of a new Wagon R.

[abhishek46]

My advise would be to use it for now.
That is, for at least another 30-40K Kms, and then sell it, before the replacement AMT also goes kaput.

[jinojohnt]

The main issue seems to be the lack of expertise/willingness to replace individual parts in a gearbox. If it is a manual gearbox, nobody will ask you to replace the full gear box as they know that you will get the work done outside by replacing just the needed components at a fraction of the cost. If it is AMT or even the torque converter, I know some authorized service centers who insist on replacing the whole gearbox rather than merely replacing the clutch bands.

[pram_ind]

Question to AMT users?


What is the timeline for changing AMT oil, per manual?

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by jinojohnt

The main issue seems to be the lack of expertise/willingness to replace individual parts in a gearbox. If it is a manual gearbox, nobody will ask you to replace the full gear box as they know that you will get the work done outside by replacing just the needed components at a fraction of the cost. If it is AMT or even the torque converter, I know some authorized service centers who insist on replacing the whole gearbox rather than merely replacing the clutch bands.

The same thing happened a few months ago with a neighbour of Paragsachania. The initial issue was oil leakage from the clutch actuator and the initial estimate was only for the replacement of the clutch actuator. However looks like something got messed up with the AMT installation and the dealership never got the AMT back to working condition. Due to this, they claimed that the AMT is damaged and needs replacement. Helplessly it had to be replaced since there was no alternative.

Originally Posted by pram_ind

Question to AMT users?

What is the timeline for changing AMT oil, per manual?

There is no need to change the AMT oil since its a closed system unless there is a leakage of oil or damage. It doesnt interact with the outside nature nor with any wear and tear parts which could foul the oil.

[dipen]

Originally Posted by GTO

For your peace-of-the-mind, smoothness, performance & reliability, please pay the Rs 50,000 extra at the time of car purchasing and buy a proper torque-converter or CVT gearbox.

Especially in the 5 to 8 lakh segment; the budgets are tightly controlled of all car buyers. The AMT is 50-60k on road more than the MT. Its an attractive lure for the provided convenience which a buyer will try to stretch. However spending a full 1.4 / 1.5 on road more for a TC / CVT than the manual; the buyer may mostly hesitate or choose to move to the next segment (eg. Wagon to Swift) and the likes instead of the relatively expensive auto. So the option of AMT looks fine to me as it also has the minimum compromise on FE as well. Having driving a celerio AMT; I was expecting it to be trash reading all reviews but it turned out to be a pretty decent surprise in urban conditions. Its not that AMTs are super unreliable. We have seen issues even on Honda CVT for freshly bought one in one of the threads. Comparing to DSG would be totally unfair as it has proven its unreliability globally. TC in cars like Kushaq are very poor in FE. These all are problems a economy budget buyer does not want to risk.

The only two benefits of AMT are the low cost to entry (but clearly not low cost in the long term) and FE. However, owners pay too high a cost for that, which is simply not worth it. If it was just about the money, we'd all sell our cars and roam around in public transport.

Like above, it is worth the little additional money over the MT which makes sense in isolation for the added convenience. Similar a iMT makes a lot of sense for the price of a set of standard alloys in this segment over the MT. The added convenience is a very high value for the money with minimal compromise.

Seriously, buy a proper automatic! 88% of BHPians said they'd happily pay more for a proper AT over the dumb AMT. In another poll, merely 4% of BHPians voted for the AMT.

Well, Indian consumers are the most difficult ones. Their opinion and decision making patterns keep changing. From a business point of view, I would rather believe that Maruti too would have done its research as well. Its not they had to design a brand new CVT. They could have easily plonked the existing CVT. They didnt for a reason. Believe they too must have done their survey. Now whether that survey was rightly done, insights effectively captured, etc is a subjective question. Maybe the AMT has super high margins possibly as there isnt much additional hardware.

For the plus 10 lakh segment, where price differential % can become smaller and engine capacities, power and weights increase; the CVTs, TCs and DCT/DSG would make more sense from a buyer standpoint. e.g Duster, XUV300, Nexon should have got good auto boxes and not the AMT. Maybe it was cost prohibitive for them to design, build or source a new one or they too recognized high revenue potential of additional 50k revenue by spending 10-15k on the cost.

[fhdowntheline]

Unfortunately, the car consumer votes with his/her wallet and is not armed with or does not care to know enough about technicalities. If it was not the case, they would have shunned all cars without airbags. We are not yet a mature car buyers society, and we are continuously at the receiving end of new technology (right now its all about electric). Had India been liberalized about 10 years earlier, we could have been at par with some of the developed markets without having cost-compromised solutions .

[locusjag]

If it's long term reliability and reasonable cost of ownership you seek, always go for a good old torque converter transmission.

I remember seeing somewhere that the first torque converter transmission was built in 1921. The first commercially viable mainstream torque converter transmission gearbox with hydraulic fluids in it (which is the way the slushbox works even today) came out in 1948 in a Buick. That leaves 70 years for the automotive industry to have refined and perfected this type of transmission in cars. The results speak for themselves today, as a result of this long learning curve.

Interestingly, Leonardo DaVinci is said to have drawn a CVT's working plan and the first working CVT seems to have come out in 1879! And yet, the CVT transmission type is a bit fragile in comparison, speaking from collective experience and my own experience as well. Personally, I view CVTs with a bit of a jaundiced eye.

You do have Lamborghinis and 18 wheeled trucks elsewhere in the world using AMTs but those aren't the same as the cars we drive in India. Those vehicles have huge engines, in a stark contrast to our desi engines' cubic capacities. Our traffic and weather conditions are unique too...

And yet, inexorably, the AMT is the one automatic transmission type that rolls on and keeps gathering mass in India's automotive market today. Fuel prices, CAFE norms and high taxation of cars prices all combined make for a winning sales pitch for the AMT. The new generation Baleno has ditched its CVT for an AMT. The Hyundai i10 Nios has an AMT, as opposed to the older Grand i10's Torque Converter unit. A decade ago, even the puny A-Star used to come with a reliable torque converter unit but today a similar-sized Alto gets an AMT. This is the trend today, in the lower segments at least. But what worries me is our market's track record of having had the AMT Duster, the AMT XUV 300, AMT Brezza and the AMT Nexon - these are not cars that you buy when you don't have sufficient financial means. And yet all these OEMs were forced to plonk AMTs into these cars. What this means is that this disease has spread up the value chain!

We are possibly witnessing the death throes of a moribund ICE-powered Indian automotive industry. I doubt that any Indian automotive engineer in the right frame of mind would choose an AMT over any other transmission type; not unless a heartless number manager with an eye on Dalal street forces his hand.

[SGK]

I own 2018 Celerio AMT which has done just 11 K (thanks to Covid) and now I am worried about the reliability of the unit. The entire usage of the car is in bumper-to-bumper traffic in Bangalore ORR. Is there anything I can do proactively to check the failure of the AMT?

PS: I have 5 years warranty and might need to look for other alternatives if AMT failures are not predicted in advance.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by SGK

I own 2018 Celerio AMT which has done just 11 K (thanks to Covid) and now I am worried about the reliability of the unit. The entire usage of the car is in bumper-to-bumper traffic in Bangalore ORR. Is there anything I can do proactively to check the failure of the AMT?

PS: I have 5 years warranty and might need to look for other alternatives if AMT failures are not predicted in advance.

My Celerio is inching close to 60k and I can vouch for how much it has been abused - Four years of crawling in ORR and whitefield traffic, two hard drivers(me and dad), two learner drivers(brother and mom), three employed drivers, non stop idling in traffic, frequent redlining and kickdowns and what not. The only issue I have had is the clutch judder. Of course, 60k is too early to certify the reliability of an automotive component, but I am just stating this to relatively assure you that 11k kms isnt a big deal for the AMT.

The two cases of failure I have come across is both related to leakage of oil and failure of the shift solenoid as a consequence. Now as to how the oil leakage happens, it could be due to a damaged oil tank(which is plastic) or due to any rat bite and so. Hence, keep one eye for oil spillage where you park your car, and grinding noises. Apart from that, nothing to worry.

[SGK]

Originally Posted by audioholic

. Apart from that, nothing to worry.

Thanks for providing assurance. Now I can drive peacefully

[amalji]

Originally Posted by GTO

For your peace-of-the-mind, smoothness, performance & reliability, please pay the Rs 50,000 extra at the time of car purchasing and buy a proper torque-converter or CVT gearbox.

I saw you taking a stand against AMT from very early days. Those days, i didn't really get it. But now, it's becoming more and more obvious.

I thought Maruti will use AMT only for entry level models for people to get used to automatic without burning money. Sadly, they are taking it one step further. The new Baleno/Glanza 's automatic might be an AMT instead of CVT. I'm not sure how Toyota approved that to be sold in their brand given they were one of the first brands who burned their fingers with a similar technology around a decade before Maruti launched it. They clearly stated reliability concerns for stopping it for ever.

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

This is one prime reason I prefer manual transmissions. Automatic transmissions ONLY if it is a proven system, otherwise any automatic for me is a NO NO. I've driven 100,000+ kms in Europe with all kinds of transmissions, so I've some experience there.

Skilled technicians who can handle AT / DCT / CVT are a very rare category in India. You need the right tools and diagnostics to troubleshoot a complicated system. Call me paranoid, yes I'm, as far as reliability is concerned (partly due to my work), I know in case a MT breaks down, I can myself troubleshoot, dismantle and reassemble it, try that with an AT.

Spike