[Mustang_Boss]

All,
I recently got a new Car [Ignis Zeta] and i wanted some extended functionality and have approached my Trusty Car accessories guy for the same.

The functionality sought was
- Auto closing of Outside Rear view mirrors when locked and Unlocked.
- Auto closing of Power windows, when locked.

Ignis comes with factory fitted Power ORVM's and all power windows.

They have installed 2 relays. One for ORVM's and the other for Power windows. Everything is working fine as expected. Plus, i got all power windows Auto up and down functionality from the drivers console.


Cool!! More than what i expected.

Now, everything in life comes at a cost. What's the cost am i paying for these relays?
Searched a lot about the potential issues, but couldnt find any significant information regarding the same. Some issues were reported, but they very less % when compared to the actual sales.

So, back here, on TBhp, looking for answers.

- I frequently drive on highways and i do not want any kind of issues arising from these electrical fittings. Should i be worried?
- Do relays go bad? What happens, if they go bad? will the Power windows work in such case?
- As the relay comes with Power windows Auto UP functionality, will it damage the motors by powering them for longer than needed?
- I carry expensive stuff in car. Any failure means, i end up suffering for the day.
- Any impact on Battery drain when not in use?

New Car itch pushed me to get the Relays. Now, after how they were installed by splicing the wires and drawing a power line from the battery, i have questions now. Guys! please share your experiences, so i can act accordingly. Thank you.

[Rehaan]

I think you're hyper-focussing on 'relays', and giving them a lot more credit than they are worth in this situation.

The first thing to understand is what a relay is: it's simply a switch. It's not smart, it's doesn't have any intelligent abilities. It's just a BIGGER switch (actuated by an electromagnet) that is triggered by a smaller switch.

The fact that it is a big switch (ie. can handle turning on/off larger loads like headlights, power windows, etc) while being controlled by a smaller switch (ie. on/off commands from a micro-controller/chip) is why it gets used in applications like these.


It's very unclear to me as to how your accessory guy has implemented these new functionalities in your car -- so I can't comment on that. My guess is that it's probably with some reprogramming, and perhaps a missing relay was added in for some functionality (which might have been left out as cost-cutting due to the feature not being offered on your variant).

Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss

- I frequently drive on highways and i do not want any kind of issues arising from these electrical fittings. Should i be worried?

Depends 100% on the implementation and quality of work done.

Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss

- Do relays go bad? What happens, if they go bad? will the Power windows work in such case?

Relays themselves exist in your car aplenty (eg. for turning on your headlamps, starting your car, or even blowing the horn), and can be automotive grade, so no cause for concern there.

They look like this, and you'll usually see them plugged in near the fuse box:


If the relay stops working, the 'switch' that it is being used for will no longer activate.

Also, being mechanical devices, when relays start to fail -- they sometimes become erratic before they completely stop working.

Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss

- As the relay comes with Power windows Auto UP functionality, will it damage the motors by powering them for longer than needed?

This is my top concern, if this has been implemented in a 'dumb' way (ie. stupid, but also without any microcontroller logic/reflashing).

Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss

- I carry expensive stuff in car. Any failure means, i end up suffering for the day.

Unlikely.

Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss

- Any impact on Battery drain when not in use?

Depends on how it's implemented. A relay should only be drawing power for itself when it is being activated (ie. the electromagnet inside it is receiving power).

However, there are 2 types of relays: Normally Open (NO) and Normally Closed (NC).

Normally Open, means that with no external signal, the relay switch is in the OFF position.

Normally Closed, means that with no external signal/power to the relay, the bigger load it is switching will be in the ON position... and if this is the case, the load that it is switching could be drawing power (depending on how it's wired).


An absolutely horrible 'dumb' implementation of the 2 features you wanted could be achieved with a NC relay.
For example, the relay could be wired to be constantly winding up the windows in it's "Normally Closed" position (ie when the relay is getting no power).
Then, when the ignition is turned on, the relay gets power and changes to it's "OFF" position, not affecting the windows at all.

In this case - it's horrible because you are continuously feeding power to wind up the window motors for as long as the car's ignition is off (ie. hours / days).

Try and get some more information from your guy on what exactly has been done. Has there been any re-flashing? Was any wiring added? etc

[Rajeevraj]

The features you enabled don't seem like any must have or very useful features. At best, it is a nice to have feature that increases convenience a little bit. Also have never heard of anyone doing such modifications on a new car. While some cars- like the ones from Volkswagen Skoda are very mod friendly as a lot of things can be done as plug and play, I have not heard of Maruti cars like the Ignis being mod friendly with respect to the electronics.

In any case, I don't think it was a wise idea to do modifications on a new car that involved wire splicing and such electronic enhancements. You may have effectively lost the warranty of the car with these changes and I don't think the benefits were worth it. If these features were important, ideally you should have got a variant which offered these.

Having said that, since it is all done, the best you can do is clearly understand what exactly has been done, especially the points Rehaan has mentioned. If it does not convince you, then reverse the changes for your peace of mind. The wire splicing unfortunately cannot be reversed without any trace.

[Mustang_Boss]

Originally Posted by Rehaan

Depends on how it's implemented. A relay should only be drawing power for itself when it is being activated (ie. the electromagnet inside it is receiving power).

An absolutely horrible 'dumb' implementation of the 2 features you wanted could be achieved with a NC relay.
For example, the relay could be wired to be constantly winding up the windows in it's "Normally Closed" position (ie when the relay is getting no power).
Then, when the ignition is turned on, the relay gets power and changes to it's "OFF" position, not affecting the windows at all.

Try and get some more information from your guy on what exactly has been done. Has there been any re-flashing? Was any wiring added? etc

Thanks a lot for your inputs. Ill try to get more information. PFB the product details:

Power Windows Relay is from RD.
https://www.rdoverseas.in/product/2-...loser-rd-or-02

I tried to find the Relay type [as you mentioned] from the website, but I couldn't find any.
The specifics you mentioned were insightful, however no technical details could be found on the product webpage, which is saddening.

No ECU Remaps or any other components were touched in the process. I stood by them and checked everything twice. Ensured only two wires had to be spliced in the process. I am not sure, if i missed any other details.

The wiring details are mentioned below, for your reference:

Originally Posted by Rajeevraj

The features you enabled don't seem like any must have or very useful features.

In any case, I don't think it was a wise idea to do modifications on a new car that involved wire splicing and such electronic enhanments. You may have effectively lost the warranty of the car with these changes and I don't think the benefits were worth it. If these features were important, ideally you should have got a variant which offered these..

Your words are absolutely True !

Then Why?
Ignis zeta electronic closing ORVM's, and i believed it "Auto Closes" when locked. But it is manual. After purchasing the vehicle and after running through the manual checking why it isn't auto closing, i come to a realization that "Electronic close is available" but "Auto Close" is not. This is a meticulous planning and presentation of features by the brand and salesmen, and I am the victim.
It would cost the manufacturer less than 10/- but they meticulously excluded it.

The second one was added on the fly, while browsing through the catalog. It never was a deal breaker. None of these are.

These are just good to have features. One biker dings the ORVM, i end with -5000. Also, by chance, if anyone leaves power window open, this one just closes it and protects things in car, especially the expensive ones.

Wiring details:
I am not dumb to let someone cut the factory wiring. I ensured all socket to socket connections, but 2 wires had to be spliced. There are 3 external wires.
- One drew power from the battery.
- The second merged ORVM power to relay. [Spliced]
- The third merged Power Windows control to Relay. [Spliced]
No other wires were touched in the process.
The relays come with custom fuse at the battery box.


Reason:
I am not a fan of getting any mods, but considering how negligent, ruthless, fraudulent and deceitful our fellow citizens are, how incapable our "public protection system" is, I felt its better to have some additional security for the stuff I often carry. My grouse was with safety and reliability, hence wanted to check.

If I ever think these will have any kind of impact, they will go directly to the bin, without any second thought.

[Everlearner]

My brother had got this setup in his I20 5 years back and is working fine. I'm not sure of the brand or type. He himself doesn't know, just got it done from a random JC road shop.

[RedTerrano]

Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss

I recently got a new Car [Ignis Zeta] ...
Now, everything in life comes at a cost. What's the cost am i paying for these relays? ...
Now, after how they were installed by splicing the wires and drawing a power line from the battery, i have questions now.

I have no clue about battery drain et al so cannot comment on the same.
However I cannot help but wonder if you have checked the terms and conditions about voiding your warranty.

In case you are unlucky and do face any issues, will the warranty still be honoured considering you modified the electricals?

Food for thought.

[ajayc123]

Relays are electronically operated switches.

Usually two types that I am aware: mechanical relays and solid state relays. In the former, there is some mechanical movement of the switch based on another trigger. So they are more prone to failure. Usually there is a clicking sound when the relay is actuated. In solid state relays there is no moving part so less prone to failure, and no physical movement or sound.

My sense is that if the relays fails, then the on off function will be impacted. (Which means auto opening /.closing may get impacted, so it may stay in the last position before failure). This is no different from such failure in the stock car.

[Mustang_Boss]

Originally Posted by RedTerrano

I have no clue about battery drain et al so cannot comment on the same.
However I cannot help but wonder if you have checked the terms and conditions about voiding your warranty.

In case you are unlucky and do face any issues, will the warranty still be honoured considering you modified the electricals?

Food for thought.

Why would warranty get void, when nothing was cut? My concern was with relays and their failure and not with warranty. Even Maruti Suzuki does install subwoofers. How would they do without splicing wires?

[Ravi Parwan]

I have used the RD auto ORVM closer for about 3 years in my Baleno, till it gave up.
Although it seems like an overkill, this does help in the following scenarios
- if you are in a tight parking spot or open parking, a closed mirror reduces the chances of damage
- it also acts as an indicator of the car being locked, so you don't need to check using your key, you can confirm locked car with just a glance.

Auto window closer is a better feature in my opinion. I had implemented aftermarket power windows in my Tata indica v2 (2001) which had the option to close all open windows on locking. It was a nice feature, but the winders ended up breaking my window winder gears multiple times and also since all 4 windows started simultaneously, it also ended up giving me electrical problems and I had to take out the window motors later and revert to manual handles.

Sequential window winders seem like a good implementation of the feature. you avoid dirt and insects in the car even if the window is left open by chance.

[RedTerrano]

Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss

Why would warranty get void, when nothing was cut? My concern was with relays and their failure and not with warranty. Even Maruti Suzuki does install subwoofers. How would they do without splicing wires?

Maruti being the authorised entity would know the detailed do's and don'ts of the modifications. Think of them as trained doctors.

Anyway my question was based on the information in the article below.

This is a very common reason that renders car warranty null and void. Many customers make several electrical changes to their vehicles like installing music system, fog lamps, high-intensity headlamps, etc. from unauthorized aftermarket stores. Doing this becomes a strong reason for automakers to not provide a warranty for the vehicle. As per carmakers, such unapproved modifications can often lead to failure of other electrical systems in the vehicle. Most aftermarket car accessory shops now try to install electrical equipment using couplers so that the original wiring is not tampered with. However, in most cases, you will still end up losing your car's warranty.

https://www.timesnownews.com/auto/fe...nd-more/674042

[TSI47]

Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss

Why would warranty get void, when nothing was cut? My concern was with relays and their failure and not with warranty. Even Maruti Suzuki does install subwoofers. How would they do without splicing wires?

Hi
This might sound upsetting to you but splicing wires voids the electrical warranty. I used to work for a reputed wire harness manufacturing organization which has almost 100% business of Maruti Suzuki. When our engineers attended warranty calls they carefully checked for such tampering and if observed warranty was not provided for the respective part.

[Aish_4761]

As many have pointed out, these are convenience features and not a must, you can drive on the highway/city/countryside roads even if these features failed. However things become interesting if there is a leakage current, continuously draining the battery. Since the work has already been carried out, how do you verify its genuinity? Keep a handy voltmeter, keep a check of the battery voltage. If there is a leakage, the voltage should drop to a lower reading within 2 days of non usage, if not, you are overthinking.
The next one, so they spliced some wires! That's a no no, you shouldn't have done it and since your car is new, your warranty can go for a toss here. But, it's already done, so just make sure that the joints are water tight, properly insulated using electrical tape and heat shrink. The worst that can happen is you burn a fuse or two, the electrical systems are usually reliable in cars nowadays; and you might be stuck with non operational windows and mirrors. For mirrors, you can manually pull them to position and it should work.

PS: I don't understand people's obsession with such automatic mirrors. My 2015 jazz came with a button which allows me to fold the mirrors electronically as and when required and I love it. I don't see my mirrors unnecessarily opening and closing if I want to get something from my car without the actual need of opening those mirrors!

[Beingtraveler]

Last year I bought S-cross Zeta and I thought I would make few changes, specially install the headlamp unit of Alpha model which comes with DRLs. Zeta being the choice since it's more value for money. After getting the car home, I searched several forums Alpha headlamp units were installed successfully, but it wasn't just plug and play, it required some modifications. I then checked with two service centres if I get it done from outside, will you honor the warranty since no wires will be cut, the MASS clearly said that vehicle will be considered out of warranty if any, any problem occurs

I bought extended warranty too during the vehicle delivery, so I didn't want to end up in a situation where I've to struggle to claim any warranty if any issue arises. I'll wait for any such modifications until my car is out of warranty. I know that urge to add more features to your new car, be it for aesthetics or safety, but as long as it's not electrical, it's all good, else you'll have to fight your way out in such situations where you'll most probably lose.

While fellow Bhpians have suggested good points, it's good to know what kind of adjustments have been made and ensure they have been done appropriately and not draining battery. The quality of work and product will matter a lot so you don't face any issues in near future.