Strange problem with Palio 1.6 stile

vidushak · 5th May 2009, 00:41

Hi all,

Today, while coming from a day trip to my native (Vapi) 200 km away, my 11 months old Palio 1.6 stile gave me strange problem that has occurred 3rd time during long trips.

At all the 3 occasions, car was driven for a long stretch in the intense heat and full AC on. After driving continuously for 180 odd kms, at some point when car is accelerated above 2500rpm in any gear - acceleration decrease knocking the engine till it comes down to 2200 odd rpm. After stopping the car for cooling down (though indicator was not showing overheating) car starts and functions normally for few kms and problem reoccurs (so need to drive below 2500 rpm to run car smoothly). In case, the car is stopped overnight or for very long duration the problem disappears.

The service advisor wanted me to replicate the problem which I manage to do today as I drove directly to service station after long trip ( total 400 kms, of which driving below 2500 rpm from manor). He did a brief check but could not identify the root cause of the problem as it was late in the eve. I am going to take my car to service station during weekend.

So, guys please help me out, what is the real problem? Any ideas?

P.S: I had driven her to GOA, driving at long stretch on 15 Aug'09 without any issues (got a chance to meet some of the bhpians). This problem has surfaced after the car had gone through repairs as I met with an accident in Oct'09 damaging the front and rear dumpers, radatior, fan, A/C, power steering pipe, one of the headlights etc.

hrsraghav · 5th May 2009, 09:53

How much Km have you clocked till now?
Nothing to do with temperature. Usually its because of some wrong sensor value coming in ECU.
Get your Throttle body cleaned.
If it works then better, or you may have to get your lambda sensor replaced.
During the cleaning of Throttle body, make it sure that the Battery terminals are not removed. If they are removed then ECU will be reseted, and once it is reseted, your problem may go away for some days. So better to stay it connected and then get your throttle body cleaned.

GTO · 5th May 2009, 13:22

Quote:

at some point when car is accelerated above 2500rpm in any gear - acceleration decrease knocking the engine till it comes down to 2200 odd rpm.

My first suspect on the cause of knocking would be adulterated petrol. Just as a precaution, have the accuracy of your temperature gauge checked.

Quote:

Get your Throttle body cleaned.

Yup, this too.

vidushak · 5th May 2009, 14:41

I have done 9000 Km on odo. Petrol adulteration was my first suspect, but ruling this out as taken precautions to fill it from good stations.

Naive question: Why would sensor and throttle behave abnormal only after driving for long duration?

I suspect, some part is getting heated up after long drive that leads to ECU sending wrong messages. Maybe ignition coils.

Psycho · 5th May 2009, 20:01

Based on your post it looks like this problem comes on when you put on the AC.The issue seems to be with the aux fan actuator when the ac comes on. Looks like that this is not working in your case but this is very odd that it happens over 2500 rpm, this could also point to another issue of your AC circuit having excess gas in it.

Make sure the service advisor is also requested to check if the water pump is functioning properly as it could be another reason to this mayhem.

vipul_singh · 6th May 2009, 22:17

@vidushak: I agree with everyone else's remarks that Sensors/Fan actuator could be the problem. But I believe that it may well be a fuel delivery issue at higher RPMs

Your mechanic check the following:

1. Fuel pump > Problem areas could be: (a) Membrane pressure regulator (b) Mesh pre-filter
2. Safety and Ventilation valve > located near the fuel filler neck. This allows vaccum-releif in the fuel tank through the 'Multipurpose valve'
3. Multipurpose valve > located near the active carbon canister in the front wheel-well. When there is a vaccum in the fuel tank, this valve allows air intake into the fuel tank through the Safety and ventilation valve.

An alternative diagnostic approach is to perform a fuel pressure test. Please refer to the diagram below. Perform the test when the car and engine is cold, and when hot. There should not be much deviation from 3.5 bar.

vidushak · 7th May 2009, 18:57

Thanks for all the inputs. Taking her to service station, hoping to get the root cause identified and repaired. Tricky part is - need to drive for long duration to check if problem has really vanished.

vidushak · 8th May 2009, 17:02

Today diagnostic check was done with EXAMINER, but no electrical problem was reported. Service advisor is assuming the problem could be overheating of ignition coil that does not allow the fuel to burn properly. We are still not sure what's the root cause of the problem. Anyway, we have decided to replace ignition coil and test whether issue gets resolved.

aakash.goenka · 9th May 2009, 08:01

Well, I have the exact same issue with my 1999 Santro. Its done about 38000 km. Dont usually drive it much.

However, the problem appears after driving only about 10 - 15 km. Then I have to stop the car for about 10 - 15 minutes and then the jerking goes away. I previously had problems starting the car, the service centre changed the spark plug. After the car came back from service, this problem started. Can you guys suggest what might be causing this? BTW, they said my silencer was broken. But, I dont think the silencer could be causing it.

meremortal · 11th May 2009, 17:03

Hi,
I can recount a similar experience about 3 months ago in my Palio Stile 1.6. Got the throttle body cleaned and it was done!

Also took the advise of a friend and shifted to Shell (Normal) petrol, never been happier.

Try it.

Cheers!

vidushak · 17th May 2009, 23:18

Ignition coil was checked, spark plugs cleaned and fuel pump changed. Took the car for a very long drive and the original problem seems to disappear, but new issue has cropped up.

While starting the engine, I could hear a distinct knock sound. The knock sound also occurs during change from 1st gear to 2nd gear. The funny part - serivce adviser is talking about problem with losen-up silencer.

P.S: No change in my driving style.

5th May 2009, 00:41	#1
vidushak Newbie Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Mumbai Posts: 14 Thanked: 0 Times	Strange problem with Palio 1.6 stile Hi all, Today, while coming from a day trip to my native (Vapi) 200 km away, my 11 months old Palio 1.6 stile gave me strange problem that has occurred 3rd time during long trips. At all the 3 occasions, car was driven for a long stretch in the intense heat and full AC on. After driving continuously for 180 odd kms, at some point when car is accelerated above 2500rpm in any gear - acceleration decrease knocking the engine till it comes down to 2200 odd rpm. After stopping the car for cooling down (though indicator was not showing overheating) car starts and functions normally for few kms and problem reoccurs (so need to drive below 2500 rpm to run car smoothly). In case, the car is stopped overnight or for very long duration the problem disappears. The service advisor wanted me to replicate the problem which I manage to do today as I drove directly to service station after long trip ( total 400 kms, of which driving below 2500 rpm from manor). He did a brief check but could not identify the root cause of the problem as it was late in the eve. I am going to take my car to service station during weekend. So, guys please help me out, what is the real problem? Any ideas? P.S: I had driven her to GOA, driving at long stretch on 15 Aug'09 without any issues (got a chance to meet some of the bhpians). This problem has surfaced after the car had gone through repairs as I met with an accident in Oct'09 damaging the front and rear dumpers, radatior, fan, A/C, power steering pipe, one of the headlights etc.
	() Thanks

5th May 2009, 09:53	#2
hrsraghav BHPian Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 292 Thanked: 24 Times	How much Km have you clocked till now? Nothing to do with temperature. Usually its because of some wrong sensor value coming in ECU. Get your Throttle body cleaned. If it works then better, or you may have to get your lambda sensor replaced. During the cleaning of Throttle body, make it sure that the Battery terminals are not removed. If they are removed then ECU will be reseted, and once it is reseted, your problem may go away for some days. So better to stay it connected and then get your throttle body cleaned.
	() Thanks

5th May 2009, 14:41	#4
vidushak Newbie Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Mumbai Posts: 14 Thanked: 0 Times	I have done 9000 Km on odo. Petrol adulteration was my first suspect, but ruling this out as taken precautions to fill it from good stations. Naive question: Why would sensor and throttle behave abnormal only after driving for long duration? I suspect, some part is getting heated up after long drive that leads to ECU sending wrong messages. Maybe ignition coils.
	() Thanks

5th May 2009, 20:01	#5
Psycho Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,043 Thanked: 110 Times View My Garage	Based on your post it looks like this problem comes on when you put on the AC.The issue seems to be with the aux fan actuator when the ac comes on. Looks like that this is not working in your case but this is very odd that it happens over 2500 rpm, this could also point to another issue of your AC circuit having excess gas in it. Make sure the service advisor is also requested to check if the water pump is functioning properly as it could be another reason to this mayhem.
	() Thanks

6th May 2009, 22:17	#6
vipul_singh BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: BLR / Lucknow Posts: 595 Thanked: 833 Times View My Garage	@vidushak: I agree with everyone else's remarks that Sensors/Fan actuator could be the problem. But I believe that it may well be a fuel delivery issue at higher RPMs Your mechanic check the following: 1. Fuel pump > Problem areas could be: (a) Membrane pressure regulator (b) Mesh pre-filter 2. Safety and Ventilation valve > located near the fuel filler neck. This allows vaccum-releif in the fuel tank through the 'Multipurpose valve' 3. Multipurpose valve > located near the active carbon canister in the front wheel-well. When there is a vaccum in the fuel tank, this valve allows air intake into the fuel tank through the Safety and ventilation valve. An alternative diagnostic approach is to perform a fuel pressure test. Please refer to the diagram below. Perform the test when the car and engine is cold, and when hot. There should not be much deviation from 3.5 bar. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by vipul_singh : 6th May 2009 at 22:20.
	() Thanks

7th May 2009, 18:57	#7
vidushak Newbie Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Mumbai Posts: 14 Thanked: 0 Times	Thanks for all the inputs. Taking her to service station, hoping to get the root cause identified and repaired. Tricky part is - need to drive for long duration to check if problem has really vanished.
	() Thanks

8th May 2009, 17:02	#8
vidushak Newbie Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Mumbai Posts: 14 Thanked: 0 Times	Today diagnostic check was done with EXAMINER, but no electrical problem was reported. Service advisor is assuming the problem could be overheating of ignition coil that does not allow the fuel to burn properly. We are still not sure what's the root cause of the problem. Anyway, we have decided to replace ignition coil and test whether issue gets resolved.
	() Thanks

9th May 2009, 08:01	#9
aakash.goenka Newbie Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kolkata Posts: 4 Thanked: Once	Well, I have the exact same issue with my 1999 Santro. Its done about 38000 km. Dont usually drive it much. However, the problem appears after driving only about 10 - 15 km. Then I have to stop the car for about 10 - 15 minutes and then the jerking goes away. I previously had problems starting the car, the service centre changed the spark plug. After the car came back from service, this problem started. Can you guys suggest what might be causing this? BTW, they said my silencer was broken. But, I dont think the silencer could be causing it.
	() Thanks

11th May 2009, 17:03	#10
meremortal BHPian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bangalore Posts: 53 Thanked: 3 Times	Get the throttle body cleaned Hi, I can recount a similar experience about 3 months ago in my Palio Stile 1.6. Got the throttle body cleaned and it was done! Also took the advise of a friend and shifted to Shell (Normal) petrol, never been happier. Try it. Cheers! Last edited by meremortal : 11th May 2009 at 17:08. Reason: Missed mentioning my car!
	() Thanks

17th May 2009, 23:18	#11
vidushak Newbie Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Mumbai Posts: 14 Thanked: 0 Times	Ignition coil was checked, spark plugs cleaned and fuel pump changed. Took the car for a very long drive and the original problem seems to disappear, but new issue has cropped up. While starting the engine, I could hear a distinct knock sound. The knock sound also occurs during change from 1st gear to 2nd gear. The funny part - serivce adviser is talking about problem with losen-up silencer. P.S: No change in my driving style.
	() Thanks