Siena brake problem - need advice

fast lane · 10th November 2010, 11:15

Hello BHPians. I have a peculiar problem with my FIAT SIENA brakes.

When applied at speeds of around 40 kph, the bite is average. When applied at 80-100 kph there is very low braking power. Have to physically push the pedal hard to get even average stopping power. its not spongy, just that the brakes dont have any friction it seems.

with 2005 palio my colleague uses (45,000 kms done) - the brakes have a 1000 times better bite.

Brakes had a serious fade and hence changed the wheel cyl and liners/pads. Unfortunately did not get originals and hence went with what the garage fellow installed. Seriously doubt that it was duplicate and also not precision enough. Hence want to go for proper spares now.

Brakes are still faded. last saturday almost had a braking faliure at about 60 kph, took a long time to even slow down that car on highway.

there is just no bite in the brakes at all.

Now the surprise - If i use my left foot for braking, the effect is very very good!!!!!!! with right foot - no effect at all. Does the angle of application of pressure make any diff - should not in logical sense - but is there any anomaly in the way the pressure is applied - or maybe the pedal is twisted ever so slightly, thus tranfer of pressure is affected!!!!!

I am totally confused.

need your advice on what to do - do i go for a entire change of whel cyl + liners + pads. Do i need to chage the rear drums also? Do i need to look at the master cyl and the booster also?

Again, in mumbai, Shetty motors quoted Rs.1400/1200 for girling liners/pads and 1500 for the aluminium whel cyl. Singh motors in kharghar (navi mumbai) quoted exactly half the rate for same parts and also showed me the TVS Girling embossed liners.........now who is correct?

Where can i get reliable Girling, or better, KBX liners and pads?

Is TVS Girling the same as Girling or is there ant diff?

Please team BHP - I need help........FIAT owners, where do u get your spares from? any one in New Bombay whom I can connect with??

rikhav · 10th November 2010, 14:34

I get all my car spares from either Kawa Auto or Shetty Motors. I can understand your situation as the price difference is quiet a bit

There is one guy Mahendra if i am not wrong and is very good with Palio and has a garage around New mumbai. He used to work for a Fiat A.S.S.

I dont have his contact number. PLease try to search for his contact number on Yahoo groups

CPH · 10th November 2010, 14:49

since the pedal feel is not spongy and you have new pads I would think it is the pads.

First of all new pads should be gently braked in because initially you won't have full grip. This is to prevent hot spots, which glaze the pads and make them inefficient.

Some pads last for ever, but this is usually a sign for bad pad quality.

To stop the car from 80kph to 0 you need 4 times the energy than from 40kph. There is also a lot more heat going through the pads than at lower speed, which will affect the brake pedal pressure needed.

Before you spalsh out for anything other than pads I would go changing the pads to a better brand.

Brake pads is something one never should get on the cheap. There is much more engineering in the pad than one would think.

When you brake with the left food you have not the feel for pressure because your right foot is trained to this job. This is just a subjective impression.

If this doesn't solve your problem, feel free to come back.

nitrous · 10th November 2010, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPH

Some pads last for ever, but this is usually a sign for bad pad quality.

Tell me about it. The MGP pads made by TVS-Girling are absolute dung.
Avoid TVS-Girling, OP.
Get the KBX ones.

planet_rocker · 10th November 2010, 15:12

I thought OMP makes spares for Palio - but do we get OMP in India? I met some guys from kerala (Chettinad Sporting?? IIRC) during the INRC round in Kolkata last year - they were wearing OMP t-shirts.

I guess Brakes India (TVS Girling) for fiats are OK. I thought KBX are for two-wheelers only.

Jaggu · 10th November 2010, 18:25

Please get the brakes thoroughly checked and set up by a competent mechanic. Ask him to check the disc for any warpage, pads for wear and tear as well as for the quality. Then he can move on to master cylinders, brake cylinders etc.

As long as you get genuine parts you should be fine, pads try to get the brand which others have recommended based on their feedback using them on Siena. I would even suggest you to invest in a upgraded performance pad. It would really help since this model is known for its fuzzy pedals.

Do not compromise or risk your life and others with things like brakes!

rikhav · 10th November 2010, 21:05

HI Jaggu
Any idea which peformance pads are available for Siena/Palio/Petra and how much do they cost

Jaggu · 10th November 2010, 21:35

Try methods they should be able to help, Tarox is a good choice.

http://docs.tarox.com/brake-pads-catalogue/fiat.pdf

bottle · 10th November 2010, 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by fast lane

Now the surprise - If i use my left foot for braking, the effect is very very good!!!!!!! with right foot - no effect at all. Does the angle of application of pressure make any diff - should not in logical sense - but is there any anomaly in the way the pressure is applied - or maybe the pedal is twisted ever so slightly, thus tranfer of pressure is affected!!!!!

My brakes work fine but I've noticed this too. I thought my left leg was stronger or something

As the others have recommended get the brake discs checked and if there is no warpage (you would get vibration on hard braking if the discs are warped) ask them to replace the pads alone and go for FIAT OEM pads. Running on that now and they work great. It isn't really necessary to look for anything aftermarket

Hashim · 10th November 2010, 22:15

I think we have developed stronger muscles in left leg due to constant "push&ups" at clutch pedal, thank the traffic in your area for this and due to strong muscles you apply more force and hence good stopping power.

In my opinion you should get the brake booster checked first, one way of checking is while engine running and car standstill, open the bonnet and ask someone to bring his ear close to brake booster. Do this in a quiet environment. Now pump the brake pedal couple of times. If the booster is faulty, person standing near brake booster will hear a hiss which is actually leaking diaphragm of brake booster.

Also there is a hose attached to brake booster which is originating from engine. Remove this hose from booster, now you can also pull out the valve from booster (to which this hose was attached). Now blow air from your mouth to his valve and if this valve is good, you should only be able to blow air from one side, not the other. If this leaks as well, replace it.

rikhav · 10th November 2010, 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by bottle

My brakes work fine but I've noticed this too. I thought my left leg was stronger or something

As the others have recommended get the brake discs checked and if there is no warpage (you would get vibration on hard braking if the discs are warped) ask them to replace the pads alone and go for FIAT OEM pads. Running on that now and they work great. It isn't really necessary to look for anything aftermarket

I find it very difficult to find Fiat OEM parts here in Mumbai. The A.S.S. flatly deny having any and say they have stopped stocking any sort of parts for Palio / Siena / Petra

SS-Traveller · 10th November 2010, 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by fast lane

...at 80-100 kph there is very low braking power. Have to physically push the pedal hard to get even average stopping power. its not spongy, just that the brakes dont have any friction it seems.
last saturday almost had a braking faliure at about 60 kph, took a long time to even slow down that car on highway.
Do i need to look at the master cyl and the booster also?

Most likely, you have poor quality brake pads. Incidentally, did you have the discs turned/polished while changing the pads? If not, then do it now, and go for better pads. KBX is good stuff, no doubt. Also...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hashim

In my opinion you should get the brake booster checked first, one way of checking is while engine running and car standstill, open the bonnet and ask someone to bring his ear close to brake booster. Do this in a quiet environment. Now pump the brake pedal couple of times. If the booster is faulty, person standing near brake booster will hear a hiss which is actually leaking diaphragm of brake booster.

Also there is a hose attached to brake booster which is originating from engine. Remove this hose from booster, now you can also pull out the valve from booster (to which this hose was attached). Now blow air from your mouth to his valve and if this valve is good, you should only be able to blow air from one side, not the other. If this leaks as well, replace it.

...get your booster checked, as Hashim described above.

fast lane · 12th November 2010, 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by rikhav

I find it very difficult to find Fiat OEM parts here in Mumbai. The A.S.S. flatly deny having any and say they have stopped stocking any sort of parts for Palio / Siena / Petra

Almost OEM parts are available with Shetty Motors - near Kennedy Bridge Mumbai.

Try them.
Price is onthehigher side but the parts are good.

fast lane · 12th November 2010, 10:16

[quote=fast lane;2135220]Hello BHPians. I have a peculiar problem with my FIAT SIENA brakes.

Team BHPians - a big thanks to all for the support and guidence.

Update - I have takena days leave and went to the mechanic in Kharghar - Muzammil / Imtiaz. Described problem and test driven.

They took one full day and checked all - cylinders, pads, liners, master cyl and also booster. Booster was checked in the same manner as suggested by HASHIM... its OK.

i had got the disc and drum polished 8 months ago so that part is also OK.

Problem was a small grease leak which came in contact with the rear liners.

Liners cleaned, wheel cyls adjusted for travel, system bleeded, front pads also rubbed and set, and the entire system tightened somewhat. This i say as my hand brake has far less travel now to engage fully.

result -

even at 110 in yesterday night's test drive - car just STOPS! no locking just a strong retardation. this is fiat braking! with the seat belts on, you feel the strong forward tug...wow.

and this with my right foot

.

I am happy. now i can really enjoy driving the Siena.

Also, seems like the outside garage is better at adjusting the systems than the fortune cars ***. there are 3 sienas that this perticular garage handles for the past few years so they seem to know how to keep this car in top condition.

Thanks to all again.

10th November 2010, 11:15	#1
fast lane BHPian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: New Bombay Posts: 43 Thanked: Once	Siena brake problem - need advice Hello BHPians. I have a peculiar problem with my FIAT SIENA brakes. When applied at speeds of around 40 kph, the bite is average. When applied at 80-100 kph there is very low braking power. Have to physically push the pedal hard to get even average stopping power. its not spongy, just that the brakes dont have any friction it seems. with 2005 palio my colleague uses (45,000 kms done) - the brakes have a 1000 times better bite. Brakes had a serious fade and hence changed the wheel cyl and liners/pads. Unfortunately did not get originals and hence went with what the garage fellow installed. Seriously doubt that it was duplicate and also not precision enough. Hence want to go for proper spares now. Brakes are still faded. last saturday almost had a braking faliure at about 60 kph, took a long time to even slow down that car on highway. there is just no bite in the brakes at all. Now the surprise - If i use my left foot for braking, the effect is very very good!!!!!!! with right foot - no effect at all. Does the angle of application of pressure make any diff - should not in logical sense - but is there any anomaly in the way the pressure is applied - or maybe the pedal is twisted ever so slightly, thus tranfer of pressure is affected!!!!! I am totally confused. need your advice on what to do - do i go for a entire change of whel cyl + liners + pads. Do i need to chage the rear drums also? Do i need to look at the master cyl and the booster also? Again, in mumbai, Shetty motors quoted Rs.1400/1200 for girling liners/pads and 1500 for the aluminium whel cyl. Singh motors in kharghar (navi mumbai) quoted exactly half the rate for same parts and also showed me the TVS Girling embossed liners.........now who is correct? Where can i get reliable Girling, or better, KBX liners and pads? Is TVS Girling the same as Girling or is there ant diff? Please team BHP - I need help........FIAT owners, where do u get your spares from? any one in New Bombay whom I can connect with??
	() Thanks

10th November 2010, 14:34	#2
rikhav BANNED Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: mumbai Posts: 222 Thanked: 116 Times	I get all my car spares from either Kawa Auto or Shetty Motors. I can understand your situation as the price difference is quiet a bit There is one guy Mahendra if i am not wrong and is very good with Palio and has a garage around New mumbai. He used to work for a Fiat A.S.S. I dont have his contact number. PLease try to search for his contact number on Yahoo groups
	() Thanks

10th November 2010, 14:49	#3
CPH BHPian Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: London Posts: 579 Thanked: 36 Times	since the pedal feel is not spongy and you have new pads I would think it is the pads. First of all new pads should be gently braked in because initially you won't have full grip. This is to prevent hot spots, which glaze the pads and make them inefficient. Some pads last for ever, but this is usually a sign for bad pad quality. To stop the car from 80kph to 0 you need 4 times the energy than from 40kph. There is also a lot more heat going through the pads than at lower speed, which will affect the brake pedal pressure needed. Before you spalsh out for anything other than pads I would go changing the pads to a better brand. Brake pads is something one never should get on the cheap. There is much more engineering in the pad than one would think. When you brake with the left food you have not the feel for pressure because your right foot is trained to this job. This is just a subjective impression. If this doesn't solve your problem, feel free to come back.
	() Thanks

10th November 2010, 15:12	#5
planet_rocker Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bong-land Posts: 2,323 Thanked: 426 Times	I thought OMP makes spares for Palio - but do we get OMP in India? I met some guys from kerala (Chettinad Sporting?? IIRC) during the INRC round in Kolkata last year - they were wearing OMP t-shirts. I guess Brakes India (TVS Girling) for fiats are OK. I thought KBX are for two-wheelers only.
	() Thanks

10th November 2010, 18:25	#6
Jaggu Team-BHP Support Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 20,384 Thanked: 17,299 Times	Please get the brakes thoroughly checked and set up by a competent mechanic. Ask him to check the disc for any warpage, pads for wear and tear as well as for the quality. Then he can move on to master cylinders, brake cylinders etc. As long as you get genuine parts you should be fine, pads try to get the brand which others have recommended based on their feedback using them on Siena. I would even suggest you to invest in a upgraded performance pad. It would really help since this model is known for its fuzzy pedals. Do not compromise or risk your life and others with things like brakes!
	() Thanks

10th November 2010, 21:05	#7
rikhav BANNED Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: mumbai Posts: 222 Thanked: 116 Times	HI Jaggu Any idea which peformance pads are available for Siena/Palio/Petra and how much do they cost
	() Thanks

10th November 2010, 21:35	#8
Jaggu Team-BHP Support Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 20,384 Thanked: 17,299 Times	Try methods they should be able to help, Tarox is a good choice. http://docs.tarox.com/brake-pads-catalogue/fiat.pdf
	() Thanks

10th November 2010, 22:15	#10
Hashim BHPian Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Aligarh Posts: 449 Thanked: 49 Times View My Garage	I think we have developed stronger muscles in left leg due to constant "push&ups" at clutch pedal, thank the traffic in your area for this and due to strong muscles you apply more force and hence good stopping power. In my opinion you should get the brake booster checked first, one way of checking is while engine running and car standstill, open the bonnet and ask someone to bring his ear close to brake booster. Do this in a quiet environment. Now pump the brake pedal couple of times. If the booster is faulty, person standing near brake booster will hear a hiss which is actually leaking diaphragm of brake booster. Also there is a hose attached to brake booster which is originating from engine. Remove this hose from booster, now you can also pull out the valve from booster (to which this hose was attached). Now blow air from your mouth to his valve and if this valve is good, you should only be able to blow air from one side, not the other. If this leaks as well, replace it.
	() Thanks

12th November 2010, 10:16	#14
fast lane BHPian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: New Bombay Posts: 43 Thanked: Once	[quote=fast lane;2135220]Hello BHPians. I have a peculiar problem with my FIAT SIENA brakes. Team BHPians - a big thanks to all for the support and guidence. Update - I have takena days leave and went to the mechanic in Kharghar - Muzammil / Imtiaz. Described problem and test driven. They took one full day and checked all - cylinders, pads, liners, master cyl and also booster. Booster was checked in the same manner as suggested by HASHIM... its OK. i had got the disc and drum polished 8 months ago so that part is also OK. Problem was a small grease leak which came in contact with the rear liners. Liners cleaned, wheel cyls adjusted for travel, system bleeded, front pads also rubbed and set, and the entire system tightened somewhat. This i say as my hand brake has far less travel now to engage fully. result - even at 110 in yesterday night's test drive - car just STOPS! no locking just a strong retardation. this is fiat braking! with the seat belts on, you feel the strong forward tug...wow. and this with my right foot . I am happy. now i can really enjoy driving the Siena. Also, seems like the outside garage is better at adjusting the systems than the fortune cars ***. there are 3 sienas that this perticular garage handles for the past few years so they seem to know how to keep this car in top condition. Thanks to all again.
	() Thanks