Team-BHP
(
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captrajesh
(Post 2158427)
What I can make out is that most of us are speculating. It reminds me of the old story of a bunch of blind men going around groping an elephant. Does anyone have some meaty / juicy insider information?
|
Weight saving is something that goes on all the time. A model is designed to certain guide lines and during the production cycle the weaknesses and strengths of the car a evaluated mainly from what comes back from the dealers. Weaker parts they try to make stronger not to pay out on warranty and to much strengeth is getting some weight shaved off.
Some models have items like engine bay undertry saved. Can be anything between 2 and 6kg alone. Other partas are bommet asound proofing. The latest fashion is not to paint the engine by further than protection etc. This is where a lot of the savings come from.
^^ But capt rajesh does not want us to grope the elephant, he wants us to open the blind folds and tell that is indeed an elephant, no?
The article mentioned indeed states so that high quality steel is being used in Punto, on what yardstick you call that a speculation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by anilisanil
(Post 2158802)
^^ But capt rajesh does not want us to grope the elephant, he wants us to open the blind folds and tell that is indeed an elephant, no?
The article mentioned indeed states so that high quality steel is being used in Punto, on what yardstick you call that a speculation?
|
In my first post I described a few things and so I did in my last post. There is many changes going that you can't list them. Also I had to learn that the engine bay arrangement in the European Punto is different to the Indian version. This I leraned on the 1.3 M-Jet when designing an AIR for it having it done in Europe and thinking I can bring it over to test it in India. Why they have arranged the bulkhead, water hoses and the battery position different, I don't know. I am sure there is more differences.
If you work for a dealer in the service department you have to deal with weekly bulletins telling you not only about problem solving but also on changes. It does not make sense to give specific changes because they are only a few and might not even last for months. During the production cycle of a car the changes can go into the thousands.
Going on to steel. What does he define as high quality steel. In general the automotive industries uses for the chassis rather low quality steel. As the the Fiats in India are not high volume production, I can't see that the savings come from the steel. Different quality steel must be thinner to save weight. This requires different tooling. Saving 60kg from the the monocoque would require a complete re-design, because it would be a 20 to 25% saving.
To sum it up, a lot of the savings come from reducing components (sound deadining, engine unsertray etc and even spare wheel) as well as changes to non structural component, which save weight, but the real point for the manufacturer is saving money on raw materials.
Also it needs to be established what the kerb weight is. In Europe the kerb weight is defined as the weight of the car as supllied by the manufacturer including all fluids + 75kg for the driver. In theory Fiat India could have taken the figures from Italy initially as used in the EU and now changed to what the kerb weight definition is in India and despite the official figures are 60kg lower the car would have gained 15kg.
To find out what is correct, there is only one way. Get bot cars on the scale, which is what a number of magazines have done recently. And guess what? The actual kerb weight of all cars was always higher than claimed by the manufacturer.
Are we any wiser now? Not before we go on the scales.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH
(Post 2159065)
In my first post I described a few things and so I did in my last post. There is many changes going that you can't list them. Also I had to learn that the engine bay arrangement in the European Punto is different to the Indian version. This I leraned on the 1.3 M-Jet when designing an AIR for it having it done in Europe and thinking I can bring it over to test it in India. Why they have arranged the bulkhead, water hoses and the battery position different, I don't know. I am sure there is more differences.
If you work for a dealer in the service department you have to deal with weekly bulletins telling you not only about problem solving but also on changes. It does not make sense to give specific changes because they are only a few and might not even last for months. During the production cycle of a car the changes can go into the thousands.
Going on to steel. What does he define as high quality steel. In general the automotive industries uses for the chassis rather low quality steel. As the the Fiats in India are not high volume production, I can't see that the savings come from the steel. Different quality steel must be thinner to save weight. This requires different tooling. Saving 60kg from the the monocoque would require a complete re-design, because it would be a 20 to 25% saving.
To sum it up, a lot of the savings come from reducing components (sound deadining, engine unsertray etc and even spare wheel) as well as changes to non structural component, which save weight, but the real point for the manufacturer is saving money on raw materials.
Also it needs to be established what the kerb weight is. In Europe the kerb weight is defined as the weight of the car as supllied by the manufacturer including all fluids + 75kg for the driver. In theory Fiat India could have taken the figures from Italy initially as used in the EU and now changed to what the kerb weight definition is in India and despite the official figures are 60kg lower the car would have gained 15kg.
To find out what is correct, there is only one way. Get bot cars on the scale, which is what a number of magazines have done recently. And guess what? The actual kerb weight of all cars was always higher than claimed by the manufacturer.
Are we any wiser now? Not before we go on the scales.
|
Thank you for the detailed post. You have given good insight into what goes on during production of cars in general which would also hold good for Punto.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anilisanil
(Post 2158802)
^^ But capt rajesh does not want us to grope the elephant, he wants us to open the blind folds and tell that is indeed an elephant, no?
The article mentioned indeed states so that high quality steel is being used in Punto, on what yardstick you call that a speculation?
|
LOL. Actually the article in the DOCOL SSAB site appears to be an old one and apparently refers to mods done in the year 2006. That is why I had not considered that information to be relevant in the weight reduction that I have referred to which appears to be a recent happening.
Did a TD of 90HP punto today and was trying to understand what the stabilizer bar is and couldn't figure. The dealership guy had no clue either. I'm beginning to wonder if it's the rear spoiler.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_Austin
(Post 2216217)
Did a TD of 90HP punto today and was trying to understand what the stabilizer bar is and couldn't figure. The dealership guy had no clue either. I'm beginning to wonder if it's the rear spoiler.
|
clap: lol:
It's the anti roll bar aka sway bar.
i put my car on the weighbridge today, the trunk was loaded with sorts of goodies, 4 (1 liter) cans of distilled water, laptop, stuufed apparels, books. i also did a tankful.
Post that i put the car on the weighbridge, the result was 1280 Kg.
Based on diesel equivalent calculation 45 liters equals 41kg as diesel is less denser than water, i generously kept a margin of 50kg for the luggage = 91 kg. Even then 1280 - 91 equals 1189 kg.
I see the kerb weight stated in the manual for Diesel Punto is 1130kg only which is (total weight of a vehicle with standard equipment, all necessary operating consumables (e.g., motor oil and coolant), a full tank of fuel, while not loaded with either passengers or cargo.)
Even then the figure seems to be on the higher side, why should FIAT claim a kerb weight of 1130kg when it s really higher in the weighbridge reading. Mine is a 2012 model.
| All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 20:50. | |
