[Jayabusa]

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

One of India's most commonly seen Ferraris. That car has seen almost every single VCCCI rally in the past and yes, it used to be red.

And is it the same one that stands/used to stand at the Kundanmal pump?

[harit]

I totally disagree with V16, and to a great extend with Bullgodji and the mole. In fact only Speedy got the situation quite right. No point being charitable.

Firstly, I have been seeing and involved myself in the vintage car scene since around 1979, visited IARC, VCCCI, and have been talking to lots and lots of people since then. Initially I started with my disastrous first entry where my car was so noisy that I was asked to move on as the band music was drowned. Since then, I can proudly say, I have come a long way. VCCCI was formed around 1982 or so, their site does not mention when. It was formed by a group breaking away from IARC. This had good support, but the irony is that IARC was better run then than VCCCI is run today. Mr. Dossa contacted a few cars owners at that time and a meeting was held at a room in the Indian Merchants chamber at Chowpatti. I got there because someone took me along. Then they founded VCCCI, had their President who paid a large sum, and founder directors selected among themselves. They also had founder members who were specifically invited, I know of a guy who was made a founder member without paying a paise. So you can see that politics started from inception. When I approached Mr. Dossa, I was told sorry, all is closed, you can be come a member by paying Rs 250/- which I did by cheque. And subscription of Rs 50/- was collected for a few years, then that stopped. (Here I would volunteer to collect membership fees). I wonder if later "members", so called because there is practically no VCCCI administration, ever paid any member fees.

Mr. Dossa tries to hog the vintage car movement and hold everything to ransom.
There are certain members who have great trouble to get the vintage car certificate required to obtain tax concessions. Selected members have no trouble at all.
Tax Books given for updating are lost. It then takes a herculian task to get them back, if at all. There are tbhpians among this elite group.
Any chief guest etc. will mostly drive/sit in Mr. Dossa's car.
On the podium you will find Mr. Dossa and the VIP's, no one else has access. We were always told that rallies were held in summer because of lack of police permission. There are many influencial vintage car owners, how come none was asked to help? We do not need interfering volunteers, thats why.

Now Morris and Bulldogji are going to arrange/host a meeting. There is no use because what you can hear will be a host of white lies, lies, and huge lies. Please note that because of my constant badgering on tbhp and to HIS friends about the cars getting registered with RTO, he finally admitted that a few cars were indeed registered. Till very few years ago it was totally denied. That in itself is an advancement to MY cause. But the justification given for being selective, why not to do so and why so few were done is totally bogus. He clearly told at the meet that there are a lot of disputes pertaining to cars, and cited two cases. I am well aware of both cases. While it is true that there are indeed disputes, the dispute does not involve/or is due to lack of books or created books. In both cases books exist, the dispute is ownership. By that same yardstick why did he aquire Nanbhoy Mansion? Look how many old buildings are in dispute. His logic is flawed.
Then we come to cars registered. Without naming the car or their owners, in the case of one car he cited the past owner being the reason for having faith in the genuineness. Now, how did he forget that that very car used to be driven in Mumbai on a WBB plate? And that the past owner was a wheeler dealer of a certain repute? Then there is this other car which had no books, I got someone to ask the owner how did he got it registered. He said that he did not know, Nitinbhai did it. And Nitinbhai told us that the previous owner was known, related to someone. About 6 years ago for the same car he said that a part of the registration book existed. Now which is true? None.
And when the car owner gives an undertaking, taking full responsibility and indemnifying VCCCI, where is the problem?
Lying comes naturally, he did that during the Cartier event when he told all, over the mike, that the car came to him as a scrap. You see, the car was driven into Mumbai!!
I met one "volunteer" during that WIAA meet. He sat quietly listening and was asked to call for tea. These are the kind of volunteers that Shri Dossa is looking for, he will not find many.
I have heard from many that Nitinbhai is boasting that he helping to get the Star of India in. See, there he will do work to please royalty, who may not even be a member. I also know that this matter is being tackled by others at ministry level. Where does Shree Nitin fit into this when the car has still not come? Everything in VCCCI is top secret. Like the forthcoming international rally.
I do not know how many are aware, there was a Harley Davidson event at Kala Ghoda. There were only two guys inside the enclosure, Shri Nitin and Shri Harit. He did not inform anyone, I knew from Delhi. A few bike guys came in their classics but were kept out as they had no Harleys. Only one classic Harley from Mumbai was there. Need volunteers have more examples that VCCCI can never be inclusive?

This is not personal. I do not want to form another club, but VCCCI cannot be captured just like that as it has funds, vehicles, and has been granted some statuary authority and status that belongs to car and bike enthusiasts of Maharashtra. Nitin Dossa is the secretary, he should be answerable to members, do I hear laughter? Good cars which came by VCCCI were simply picked up by Nitin Dossa, never offered to VCCCI members which would have been the right thing to do.

There are a few carrots which are dangled, like waiver of green tax, help for registering assembled cars, but if VCCCI were ever to get any such authority, it will be used selectively. Meanwhile the carrot is dangled in front of hopeful enthusiasts to keep them submisive.

The biggest obstacle is jealousy, more on that later.
All posts on this subject are posted with good intentions. But change must come from within the top, otherwise you can bang your head on the wall and get no results.
Looking forward to the Pune event.

Cheers harit

[KPS]

Originally Posted by harit

Looking forward to the Pune event.
Cheers harit

I somehow get the feeling that Harit is going have a blast (no pun intended) in Pune.

Cheers

KPS

[mbz180]

Originally Posted by harit

I totally disagree with V16, and to a great extend with Bullgodji and the mole. In fact only Speedy got the situation quite right. No point being charitable.

Firstly, I have been seeing and involved myself in the vintage car scene since around 1979, visited IARC, VCCCI, and have been talking to lots and lots of people since then.
Cheers harit

Very honestly, I had paid the subscription amount by cheque in favour of VCCCI years back and expected great things, but nothing happened.

[Yash Ruia]

I think we should keep our spirits high and continue enjoying the common interest which we all share. By trying to create politics and settling personal scores on the forum, I don't think we can achieve anything. Instead we should continue enjoying our passion for vintage cars with each other for which this forum is.


Kind Regards

[Faster789]

Originally Posted by Bulldogji

...many are ready to find faults with nitin and the way rallies are organized.But how many of us actually volunter to help him? Yes it has become a one man show, because most of us are too busy with our own work and life to come forward and assist

Taking a look at the two quotes above, I can only point to Mr Harit's quote below. He pretty much sums it up.

I have no wish to point fingers at individuals on a public forum, but those who are in the "know" are more than aware that there is/are individual(s) who have slowly but surely created obstacles for others and created opportunities for themselves. I have seen collections in India "grow", but their evolution has not been as simple as "it was for sale, so a I paid a fair price and bought it".

Originally Posted by harit

There is no question of anyone volunteering to help, volunteers are kept out and only selected cozy pals are in the inner circle. Has VCCCI ever asked for volunteers?

It does not and has not, for the reasons (my personal views based on many years of quiet observation) I have set out above.

Originally Posted by harit

It was created arbitrarily, and functions arbitrarily, and one is accepted not by credentials of enthusiasm, but by criteria best known to VCCCI.

The origins of the organised movement to preserve our automobile history goes back to the early 60s, and the names of those few individual pioneers have pretty much been forgotten, ignored or left be. The movement was not arbitrary and was very much a community affair - I have negatives and photographs that would show that my presumptions are based upon fact. What the original thing stood for and what it accomplished in its short time has certainly not been achieved since.

Originally Posted by harit

Proof that politics and personal agenda do spoil the scenario.

They have and do. I have personally been in the company of an extremely well known (indeed, respected even) car personality who in my presence and that of others, tried to take credit for a rather important piece of "Indian car" history, that I and those present knew beyond a shadow of a doubt was not the case. The movement has to some extent (in my limited experience going back to when I actually followed things closer than I do now) become a shadow of what it was because ego and greed (I use the word for lack of something more genteel, it is perhaps too harsh).

Originally Posted by harit

Mr. Dossa tries to hog the vintage car movement and hold everything to ransom.

I will give you credit here Harit, for saying what a lot of people have said to me in private. I hope this doesn't bite you in the future. With good there is bad, and a recognition of both is only fair. THis view is not mine as I have had no contact with the person you refer to.

Originally Posted by harit

There are certain members who have great trouble to get the vintage car certificate required to obtain tax concessions. Selected members have no trouble at all.Tax Books given for updating are lost. It then takes a herculian task to get them back, if at all.

Absolutely SPOT ON. And you know what I heard suggested as a solution? "why don't you just get rid of your car, I am sure we can find someone(!) to take it off your hands".

Originally Posted by harit

I have heard from many that Nitinbhai is boasting that he helping to get the Star of India in. See, there he will do work to please royalty, who may not even be a member. I also know that this matter is being tackled by others at ministry level. Where does Shree Nitin fit into this when the car has still not come? Everything in VCCCI is top secret. Like the forthcoming international rally.
I do not know how many are aware, there was a Harley Davidson event at Kala Ghoda. There were only two guys inside the enclosure, Shri Nitin and Shri Harit. He did not inform anyone, I knew from Delhi. A few bike guys came in their classics but were kept out as they had no Harleys. Only one classic Harley from Mumbai was there. Need volunteers have more examples that VCCCI can never be inclusive?

All new versions of stories past.... You have no idea about the amount of trouble a certain princely family has to take legally, an heirloom out (only to have it return in due course). It would have been far easier if there had been smoother waters between the parties that seem to have the necessary leverage.

Originally Posted by harit

I do not want to form another club, but VCCCI cannot be captured just like that as it has funds, vehicles, and has been granted some statuary authority and status that belongs to car and bike enthusiasts of Maharashtra.

This is where you are wrong Mr Harit. In a proper democracy or retail enviorment, people vote with their feet. If you disagree with something, give it no air to breathe and it will die. Start something new, something fresh. This forum is giving much needed publicity to knowledge and can easily lead to a new organisation. There are plenty of people around who know people who know people, as you must do in this place.

The views I have expressed here and mine and mine alone. I have taken great care not to point fingers as I have no wish to be dragged into this. The only reason I have posted as I have, is because I wanted to give voice to and perhaps share what I have seen and heard in my time.

If the mods or readers feel that anyone is being unjustly accused in my post as opposed to simply reporting facts as I have attempted to do, please feel free to delete this post.

[Cyrus43]

The way the VCCCI works is well on display with how their office looks. Old and anarchical. although I have a massive soft spot for that old rustic smell that is everpresent in that offic. Just like old books.

Anyways, I think these posts can actually be separated into another thread.

[Vintage1]

Anyone posting more pictures? Hopefully next year we'll see some of the Bhogilal beauties, though many have been lost to Mumbai..

[harit]

Originally Posted by Yash Ruia

I think we should keep our spirits high and continue enjoying the common interest which we all share. By trying to create politics and settling personal scores on the forum, I don't think we can achieve anything. Instead we should continue enjoying our passion for vintage cars with each other for which this forum is. Kind Regards

Dear Yash,

How sweet. Our spirits are always high, and my posts are always spirited. And if I have trouble to keep spirits up, there is help when the hours are spent being happy, chatting with friends, fellow enthusiasts and historians, on, what else but vintage + classic cars.
What makes you think that we are not enjoying our passion for vintage and classic cars?(Maybe modern classics excluded, Indian classics very much included).
Just to clarify, I do not have time for politics, and as mentioned before nothing is personal. My time goes into building up my collection, gather more and more knowledge, specifically history, and share with fellow enthusiasts. Word got around, you will be amazed how many people and from what caliber ask to meet me and see my stuff, and we share, my pool just enlarges. Actually I am so overwhelmed that I cannot manage it properly. VCCCI will be having tons of stuff, is it ever shared? When you sit in VCCCI office, just ask to go through their material. You will never get to see it. Politics is played by the present establishment, just go through the time when VCCCI was founded and all will be clear. Since you are there so often, check on who were the founder directors. And check who are the founder directors now, after they got the statuary notice. I will share this with you when I see you next. And was politics not played after the Pranlal condolence meet? Did you not see the carrots? Did you not realise the untruths spoken at that time, after the rally when you saw that the opposite was done to what was discussed? So do NOT talk to me about politics, VCCCI is not open to any suggestions, they will do as they are determined to do.

Settling personal scores? Why should I do that? What score to settle? I am just exposing the arbitrary functioning of VCCCI which has put many enthusiasts off. Others are kept submissive with a lollipop kept dangling in front of them. But there are some terrors with whom VCCCI dare not play politics, VCCCI goes out of the way to bestow them with prizes and get their cars registered with RTO.

To my view, this is the vintage and classic cars section of t-bhp, the forum which is so rich in information, it has given me three cars(purchased fair and square), tremendously built up my knowledge, friends circle increased greatly, huge flow of information and there is nothing wrong if we discuss what ails VCCCI. Has anybody ever given any valid arguments against what I post about VCCCI? BTW, I get more support by SMS and phone calls than I get on the forum, but hopefully with time that will also change.
From Monday I will go back to posting family pictures, etc, maybe just a comment on the Nagpur event. The public is being informed by my posts. Remember, proper functioning of VCCCI IS ALSO IN COMMON INTEREST


Cheers harit
P.S. can someone put up more photos of the event?

[KPS]

Originally Posted by harit

My time goes into building up my collection, gather more and more knowledge, specifically history, and share with fellow enthusiasts. Word got around, you will be amazed how many people and from what caliber ask to meet me and see my stuff, and we share, my pool just enlarges. Actually I am so overwhelmed that I cannot manage it properly.

Cheers harit
P.S. can someone put up more photos of the event?

I would fully agree. I met Harit through this Forum. There is so much to learn and share especially with a person with such a amazing passion for cars like Harit. People like me who were always in the periphery till recently find it very rewarding to exchange thoughts with Harit. The nice thing about these meeting is that it is never on an obligation basis or never the expectation that one of us will benefit.

Lastly I must compliment Harit for his open thoughts on VCCCI. We all know how most of the clubs are runs, but very few can be this open on this subject.

Cheers

KPS

[the mole]

Originally Posted by KPS

I would fully agree. I met Harit through this Forum. There is so much to learn and share especially with a person with such a amazing passion for cars like Harit. People like me who were always in the periphery till recently find it very rewarding to exchange thoughts with Harit. The nice thing about these meeting is that it is never on an obligation basis or never the expectation that one of us will benefit.

Lastly I must compliment Harit for his open thoughts on VCCCI. We all know how most of the clubs are runs, but very few can be this open on this subject.

Cheers

KPS

You bet I'll second that.

[harit]

Hi guys. Thanks for your support, Speedy, Faster and the mole. The truth hurts, but never be afraid of it. Believe me, I have no private agenda here, I am already far beyond that.

Now for the breaking news. Shri Nitin Saheb Dossa is the new VCCCI President!!. Please do not ask me when that happened, nobody whom I know knows the answer. Just wait for the Nagpur press reports to confirm this.
The past president of VCCCI was Pranlal Bhogilal. Perhaps someone like Yash Ruia can tell us as an insider when the meeting took place among the directors to elevate him to this post. The past president had donated Rs 25000 at the time of his becoming founder president to help the club. And Shri Nitin Dossa HIMSELF told me that he won his challenge with Pranlal to increase the corpus to 25 lacs. BTW, where is that money?
While elevating himself to the post of President, he has also given me a special mention, "TROUBLEMAKER". But as you will see, there has been absolutely no answer to any of my questions. For the information of interested public, I had SMS correspondence with Shree Dossa in December 2010. The man is so predictable that I phoned a certain person after a long long gap, had general talk like the weather, and then told him about this. As I had predicted, he immediately let out that Shri Nitin sent him a copy of his SMS to me, but not of my reply. Obviously he could not, his messages were not coherent. See what I mean by predictable?

A little comment to Cyrus and Faster.
Cyrus, which VCCCI office are you talking about? The one in Dossa Mansion, or at WIAA. You see, WIAA has been similarly taken over, just see who is using the Sasoon Dock garage.
Faster, there is no difficulty to form another club. We have the numbers. But the difficulty is that there is an existing setup which has statuary powers, funds, cars and other assets in terms of documents, records, books, Castrol engine oil tins, manuals, etc. Why should these be given up to a despot who does not deserve to keep them?
As a trouble maker, I have said enough for the moment. I know that there will never be answers. There will be angry telephone calls, "WHO HAS INFORMED HARIT. That, Shri Nitin, will not be your concern. Please start running the club in the way it was meant to be. Please keep records, minutes and accounts. And who has authorised you to charge Rs 300/- for a vintage certificate?
Watch this space.

Cheers harit

PS can some please post some more pictures of the event?

[Faster789]

Originally Posted by harit

Hi guys. Thanks for your support, Speedy, Faster and the mole. The truth hurts, but never be afraid of it.

The VCCI is what it is and that will never change. What it was and what it did is openly documented on its own website. There is really nothing new in any of these posts, and the "breaking news" is no surprise.

With reference to Pranlal's collection, and further to a conversation from the horse's mouth that I was privy to, all the cars were all (without exception) going to go to his museum. I am happy to wager that that will not be the case in its entirety. Let's wait and see.

I would suggest that instead of complaining, those of you that are willing and able, should start your own body.

Statutory "powers" in India are given and taken away freely. If you put something together of merit it will take on a life of its own.

[karlosdeville]

Originally Posted by KPS

Mr. Mehta's Windsor looks in top condition. I would have preferred a dark colour as it would have highlighted the heavy chrome much better. If you see Amal's black Dodge, the chrome just stands out. The Windsor with all that chrome on a dark colour would have been outstanding.

KPS, this Windsor was originally in this colour (actually a little lighter too), and hence the colour has remained more or less the same. The owner also has a '47 New Yorker (bought new by his father) in a more striking shade of blue, which it retains to this day, though unees-bees. Here she is when she last attended a VCCCI event in 2006. A stylish Plymouth Savoy is seen in the back which also I have not seen attend a rally since then.

[Vintage1]

Sad that nitin Dossa is hijacking the event and the club. He is responsible for the Bhogilal cars withdrawing from the event for good.