[amit_mechengg]

Terrible pricing, money minter, the Abarth Punto seems a way better deal than this so called RS. At the similar pricing you get a very stable safe car with one of the best hydraulic steering and suspension set up, the ABARTH pedigree , 145 horses and a proper 4 cylinder turbo charged engine fully loaded with all the bells and whistles.

[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

Terrible pricing, money minter, the Abarth Punto seems a way better deal than this so called RS. At the similar pricing you get a very stable safe car with one of the best hydraulic steering and suspension set up, the ABARTH pedigree , 145 horses and a proper 4 cylinder turbo charged engine fully loaded with all the bells and whistles.

True that!!

But, Baleno RS will sell.. Abarth punto manages just short of 10 units every month. Baleno RS has already got 10 bookings in one dealership . As per my SA, most of the bookings were from customers who couldn't wait for normal Baleno. They were like "get me any Baleno top model" and ended up with RS.

[amit_mechengg]

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

True that!!

But, Baleno RS will sell.. Abarth punto manages just short of 10 units every month. Baleno RS has already got 10 bookings in one dealership . As per my SA, most of the bookings were from customers who couldn't wait for normal Baleno. They were like "get me any Baleno top model" and ended up with RS.

Thats perfectly the scene in India, maruti can sell anything. They have a great brand reputation and unbeatable service network. Even a 16 year old mechanic repairs maruti with ease and confidence.

[chncar]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

Terrible pricing, money minter, the Abarth Punto seems a way better deal than this so called RS. At the similar pricing you get a very stable safe car with one of the best hydraulic steering and suspension set up, the ABARTH pedigree , 145 horses and a proper 4 cylinder turbo charged engine fully loaded with all the bells and whistles.

That is the difference between paper specs and the real world. Most people will drool at the specs of the Abarth but still prefer to plonk their hard earned money down on the Baleno, purely because Maruti's infrastructure on the ground and the risk of going with Fiat whose future in India is uncertain and whose service station coverage is now extremely sparse.

[Chetan_Rao]

There's plenty of reasons this car will sell more than its direct competitors, being a better car isn't one of them.

[chncar]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

There's plenty of reasons this car will sell more than its direct competitors, being a better car isn't one of them.

That is debatable, and different people have different priorities that describes what makes a 'better car' for them.

For example space in the Polo is pathetic, and the brakes are not great either. The lack of manual transmission option rules it out for some. The gearshift on the Abarth Punto isn't very good, and the general seat and ergonomics are not comfortable for a lot of people.

For me at least, those two cars are ruled out straight away because I simply cannot get in and get out and sit in comfort, this is a basic requirement even before I crank the engine. To me a sporty hatch still needs to be practical and comfortable, otherwise one might as well buy a go-kart.

[raichoudhury]

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

True that!!

But, Baleno RS will sell.

They were like "get me any Baleno top model" and ended up with RS.

IMHO, comparing the Baleno RS with the Abarth and VW GT TSI is (in a way) comparing apples with oranges.

The Fiat has a niche customer base and the common "Ram & Shyam" (read common man) would not dare to touch it. VW is slightly better off; However the long term reliability of the Auto GT TSI and the after sales cost of a VW cannot be compared with a Maruti.

IMO the Baleno RS is a good addition and would indirectly "boost" (pun intended) the dwindling sales of VW GT TSI and the Abarth Punto.

The success of the Baleno has made Maruti price the RS a tad higher. However the response has not been exhilarating to say the least as per the initial reports. However the RS is definitely a safe bet and in 1.5 lakhs one gets-

A. 19 BHP extra power

B. 4 disc brakes

C. A forward (or rather read "a future") looking engine.

D. Peace of mind

It is the last factor (Peace of mind) which may bring in the numbers for the RS and IMO deservedly so!

[abhishek46]

Originally Posted by Karthik Chandra

Few Points by Gavin D Souza

1. Low end is not attractive, doesn't get off the mark as eagerly as even the 1.2 NA engine.
2. Steering is well weighted - better than the regular Baleno but isn't the best.
3. Seats could have had better lateral support for cornering and handling.
4. Turbo lag, Beyond 2000 rpm is where the action begins
5. Punchy mid range, revs upto 6000 rpm before rev limiter kicks in, not a free revving engine. No top end to talk about.
6. The 3 cylinder thrum is quite good beyong 2000 rpm, but isn't thrilling enough.
7. Suspension is beefed up not just because its an RS but due to the crash test regulations. So the regular Baleno will get the re-tuned suspension set up.
8. The stiffer suspension set up has contributed significantly towards weight.

That's brutal!
Looking at these points, there is no way I can personally justify a 1.5Lakh premium for this car.

Why would someone ditch the creamy smoothness and eagerness of the existing 1.2 4cyl and pay an additional 1.5Lakh for a 1.0 3cyl which offers only limited performance gains.

Originally Posted by raichoudhury

D. Peace of mind

It is the last factor (Peace of mind) which may bring in the numbers for the RS and IMO deservedly so!

Yes, This is the bit which the baleno RS delivers in spades.

I can already imagine the scene in my mind if I go ahead and buy one.
As the traffic lights go green, the GT TSI guy will simply blaze away with his punchier engine and lightning shifts.
And in my short-lived sorrow, I will be consoling myself that his DSG may fail anytime.

Request to Mods: Please kindly merge with previous post. Accidentally created another post instead of editing previous.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by chncar

That is debatable, and different people have different priorities that describes what makes a 'better car' for them....

I won't compare it to the GT TSi or the Abarth. Both have engines in a different league altogether.

As for practicality and value, the RS struggles to beat its own siblings with different hearts:

1. Engine: Fair to wait for a complete T-BHP review to judge, but early news indicates an engine that isn't comparable to any of its turbocharged counterparts. That Maruti probably has the best 1.2NA Petrol available today only makes it harder for the Boosterjet.

2. Space, ergonomics and cabin features: Same as the regular Baleno.

3. Suspension: It's a regulatory upgrade not a performance one, so the regular Baleno will get it too.

4. Brakes: No arguments here. All 4 discs are better anyday. Not exactly a deal breaker on a 100BHP car though.

5. Price and VFM: The RS is priced well into or above compact sedan territory, and even hits close to the City's base model. Maruti has an MUV in house for similar pricing, speaking only to space and VFM.

So what's the USP of the RS?

Engine? No match for turbocharged competition, only marginally better than Maruti's own best-in-class small NA petrol.

Space & ergonomics? Identical car available for 1.5L less.

Suspension and handling? Nope. Same will be available on siblings.

Brakes? Credit where it's due, but the Abarth has it too.

Price and VFM? Identical car available at 1.5L less, with a high-revving and fuel-efficient NA petrol. 1.3 DDiS variant is cheaper, with even higher FE.

The RS to me is in no man's land; not good enough to be a performance car, not VFM enough to beat its own sibling, or anything else in its price bracket.

It will still sell, but like I said, NOT because it's a better car.

P.S. Credit to Maruti, they actually launched an RS variant that's more than a gaudy sticker job!

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

Terrible pricing, money minter, the Abarth Punto seems a way better deal than this so called RS. At the similar pricing you get a very stable safe car with one of the best hydraulic steering and suspension set up, the ABARTH pedigree , 145 horses and a proper 4 cylinder turbo charged engine fully loaded with all the bells and whistles.

You forgot the fact that the 'Abarth' Punto comes with a terrible gearbox which in this day and age of automatics, is a shame to have to use a manual gearbox so bad. Also what "ABARTH pedigree" are you talking about? I have a friend in the UK who owns an Abarth Punto. What we get here in India is just a bunch of badges and a Linea T-jet motor. Forget the Baleno which I agree is overpriced as well, but there is a very good reason why even the Polo GT outsells the so called 'Abarth'.

The sad truth is that there simply isn't any hot hatch in our market just various hyped up options. One that is lightweight and easy to chuck about but comes with a 3 cyl motor and not enough poke just about warm and far from a 'hot hatch', another that offers loads of 'feel' but simply cannot manage its weight, a hot Fiat but certainly not even a warm Abarth, and the third a slightly fast automatic. All these three are marketed as hot hatches when honestly they are just slightly more special versions of the regular ones.

[amit_mechengg]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

You forgot the fact that the 'Abarth' Punto comes with a terrible gearbox which in this day and age of automatics, is a shame to have to use a manual gearbox so bad. Also what "ABARTH pedigree" are you talking about? I have a friend in the UK who owns an Abarth Punto. What we get here in India is just a bunch of badges and a Linea T-jet motor. Forget the Baleno which I agree is overpriced as well, but there is a very good reason why even the Polo GT outsells the so called 'Abarth'.

The sad truth is that there simply isn't any hot hatch in our market just various hyped up options. One that is lightweight and easy to chuck about but comes with a 3 cyl motor and not enough poke just about warm and far from a 'hot hatch', another that offers loads of 'feel' but simply cannot manage its weight, a hot Fiat but certainly not even a warm Abarth, and the third a slightly fast automatic. All these three are marketed as hot hatches when honestly they are just slightly more special versions of the regular ones.

I am really not sure how much did you drive the Abarth, but your info seems far away from the reality. With all the so called terrible gearbox etc it still does 0-100 in 8.8 seconds which is the best in class.
If new lowered and stiffer suspensions, new wide pressure turbo, new injectors , tuned intake and exhausts , bigger intercooler, all 4 discs, and great alloys , new seats etc make you say it comes with just badges and same tjet motor then what would you say about the new baleno and polo?

Whats your definition of a hot hatch that a manufacturer can launch below 11 lacs in India ?

Manufacturers can very well bring in the same Euro specs Abarth or Polo in india, question is who will pay 17-25 lacs for a hatch in India.

Just compare peer to peer Baleno vs Polo TSI vs Abarth - put in the costs, suddenly you will realize the real value of Baleno

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

I am really not sure how much did you drive the Abarth, but your info seems far away from the reality. With all the so called terrible gearbox etc it still does 0-100 in 8.8 seconds which is the best in class.
If new lowered and stiffer suspensions, new wide pressure turbo, new injectors , tuned intake and exhausts , bigger intercooler, all 4 discs, and great alloys , new seats etc make you say it comes with just badges and same tjet motor then what would you say about the new baleno and polo?

'lowered and stiffer suspensions' that is just advertising jargon mate. Simply not low enough and certainly not stiff enough (anyone who has driven the car extensively will say the same). The car simply has a hard time managing its weight and it shows in track tests. The engine and its straightline speed is the only commendable thing I see on the Punto still no where near as fun as the perfectly balanced Palio S10 (not advertised as an Abarth) or the Fiesta 1.6S (not sold as a cosworth). Both good examples of how an entertaining car can be made under 10 lakhs if one stops trying to please the masses with not low enough suspension and not stiff enough damping. Straightline speed and specs on paper are one thing but I personally prefer a car that you can confidently throw into corners at the limit and the Punto 'Abarth' offers good grip and steering close to the limit but once its unmanageable weight has been thrown too hard maybe a bit over the limit it seems really scary. The car simply begs for sway bars and a better gearbox. Both of which could have been offered at the asking price or maybe for a bit more. I am not saying we should get exactly what is sold in Europe for it to be deemed as a hot hatch. But drive one over there and you will see the the focus of an Abarth product being performance oriented, is so clear and not muddled up like it is here in India.

BTW what I have to say about the Baleno and Polo are exactly the same; that none of them are hot hatches. Please atleast extend me the courtesy of reading my post before quoting me

[amit_mechengg]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

BTW what I have to say about the Baleno and Polo are exactly the same; that none of them are hot hatches. Please atleast extend me the courtesy of reading my post before quoting me

Lets hold this true and lets say none of these are hot hatches and all are normal production cars at 10-11 lacs. Equate them Baleno, Polo TSI and Abarth, I dont see Baleno justified at the given cost.
P.S - Your post was read very properly before quoting however your theory of rebadging was a little bit strayed away from what really the manufacturer has done with their cars.

Next - lets not get into the flawed track tests that were done with shoddy tyres. For the sake of track record the Punto MJD Wolf remapped won the open diesel category title.

Palio 1.6 was a hot hatch in that era for sure and i own one right now and is surely a fun, lets speak about what manufacturer can launch as a hot hatch under 11 lacs in todays world which complies to the pollution norms , gives good mileage will all the electronics etc that customer demands today and sell in India.
Even BMW was forced to soften its suspension to comply with Indian roads, if you need to reach masses in India you cant make them ride on a stone.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

Lets hold this true and lets say none of these are hot hatches and all are normal production cars at 10-11 lacs. Equate them Baleno, Polo TSI and Abarth, I dont see Baleno justified at the given cost.
P.S - Your post was read very properly before quoting however your theory of rebadging was a little bit strayed away from what really the manufacturer has done with their cars.

if you actually had read my post just to tell me that you don't see how the Baleno is justified at the given cost, then read it again:

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

Baleno which I agree is overpriced as well....

The sad truth is that there simply isn't any hot hatch in our market just various hyped up options. One that is lightweight and easy to chuck about but comes with a 3 cyl motor and not enough poke just about warm and far from a 'hot hatch', another that offers loads of 'feel' but simply cannot manage its weight, a hot Fiat but certainly not even a warm Abarth, and the third a slightly fast automatic. All these three are marketed as hot hatches when honestly they are just slightly more special versions of the regular ones.

I don't want to have to keep doing this. I seem to have struck a sore point with you. You say that track tests are flawed and then you wave an open diesel category autocross win at me. I don't believe that winning at an autocross event amongst amateur drivers is saying anything much in terms of a "track record". You ask me how one can make a hot hatch keeping pollution norms and efficiency into consideration, even that I have already spoken about in my previous post; sway bars and a better gearbox. I don't believe that is much. I have enough reason to back my opinions up and have no qualms if you believe that the Abarth Punto is a true abarth with "ABARTH pedigree" or whatever. Some of our opinions are even the same so I do not wish to get into an unnecessary argument

[amit_mechengg]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

I don't want to have to keep doing this. I seem to have struck a sore point with you. You say that track tests are flawed and then you wave an open diesel category autocross win at me. I don't believe that winning at an autocross event amongst amateur drivers is saying anything much in terms of a "track record". I have enough reason to back my opinions up and have no qualms if you believe that the Abarth Punto is a true abarth with "ABARTH pedigree" or whatever. Some of our opinions are even the same so I do not wish to get into an unnecessary argument

I think there is no use arguing further when you see sore points. Cheers !!
I didnt even mention the track records, you bought up a track test in which the abarth was shodded with a funny tyre which will help a lot to spin the wheels.
I had no option than to equate it with another track record. ( i believe this is how a normal driver can drive, 99.99% are not professional racecar drives in india)

The argument is never about UK Abarth or Indian Abarth, the Indian Abarth is available off the shelf for 9 lacs odd right now after discounts. I see baleno overpriced for the offering.
I am not posting further on this , i am done thanks