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Old 29th January 2010, 17:42   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta Wing View Post
Linea (L: 4560 mm, H: 1487 mm, WB: 2603 mm):
Attachment 276209

City (L: 4420 mm, H: 1470 mm, WB: 2660 mm...hmmm?):
Attachment 276210

Circle 3 showing longer WB for City made me go back through both cars' websites and recheck the figures and yes, the longer Linea has a shorter WB than the City.
As per the websites of the respective cars,
Fiat India and :: Honda City ::

The WB are as follows

Linea WB = 2603 mm
City WB = 2550 mm

So the Linea has a longer WB than the City. May be the scale reductions for each picture did not work as intended, because in the 3rd picture City clearly has a longer wheelbase than Linea.

Another aspect to be compared is the underthigh support for the rear seat. By compropmising on the underthigh support, the rear leg room can be improved. In the pictures, Linea seem to have a more wider seat than the City. May be this is a reason for the lower legroom. Does the Line rear seat have better underthigh support than the City rear seat? People who have researched both cars should be able to give a clear answer.

I have only briefly seen/sat in the rear seat of Linea and havent done it in the City, so cant really comment on the space.
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Old 29th January 2010, 17:48   #17
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Not only the legroom, but even the rear headroom (thanks to the sloping roof) is rather compromised in the Linea.

Honda is the master of interior packaging. And for those impressed with the City, you should check out the Jazz.
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Old 29th January 2010, 19:51   #18
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@vasanthn21, shuvc, lambuhere1, thingummy, lancer rit, 100BHP, kvish, clevermax:
Many Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
City's wheelbase is 2550 and not 2660. (:: Honda City ::) That is 53mm less than Linea, which stands at 2603. Can't comment on the rest of the comparo, but I had thought that City's backseat was more upright than the Linea's.
Thanks. I had read that data in the first instance of doubt and it sure did not clear the picture because I was sure of the scale matching I did with respect to Height and Length (do it yourself, stretch the superimposed sketch to 45.60 cm in any editor with scale and you'll see all H, L match). Then I found this:
Honda car comfort, Honda City 2009 Comfort

This is the pic:
Name:  city measurements.jpg
Views: 4383
Size:  130.3 KB

The WB does show as 2660 mm in the pic and that's good enough evidence to correlate with my findings. However, the hardest fact is the best. An appeal to ANHC owners: Can someone ACTUALLY measure the WB with a tape, between centers of center nut of front and rear wheels, and post it here please? A difference of 110 mm between 2550 mm and 2660 mm just can't be missed. Then we can write to Honda.

The rear seat recline is clear from the picture of interiors of both cars. The door lines at rear are almost totally overlapping. The City's rear seat follows the door contour but the upward side of Linea's rear seat is more to the fore than the door line. It is not be a problem per se, I was correlating this with the difference in headroom.
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Originally Posted by ajaysurfs View Post
What happens to the Width. You have not shown any comparison on that - Not part of your ergonomics!
Only the total width of both cars is available, Linea being 35 mm wider. How this translates to cabin space, I don't know since the websites don't list width of seats. And the planform views (seen from top or bottom) of cars are generally not available. I 'perceived' Linea to be more spacious widthwise when I sat in it but can't support with a tangible fact. Can owners post this data by actually measuring things and clicking pics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trust_In_Thrust View Post
...the part of seat on which we sit is much broader and longer in Linea compared to city thus providing great support to thighs and pamper you in luxury.

Also when the op talks about why fiat why then a thought comes to my mind why didnot Honda made there car more stable at high speeds or talk about the suspensions where Linea hugely better than City , what about the brakes , the tyres...
The seat pans do seem bigger in Linea (these bigger seats would tend to shroud the available legroom and make it seem smaller). Sorry, forgot to commet on it. Could be wider at the rear (not sure) but Fiat DID put the neat middle headrest, no?
I ask Fiat why because so much length of the car is already available to them to give better space in the cabin. But then, as the last comparison in my post shows, not all (much) higher priced cars have very spacious rears either.
Suspension, brakes, tyres etc are out of the scope of discussion. I think enough fights have taken place over these issues in other threads backed by experts' test drives. But thanks for mentioning some things I forgot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mohan41 View Post
...I have not sat in Linea but I have sat in City in both the front and rear seats. With front seat adjusted comfortably for me (I am 175cm tall), I found the rear seat space good in City, but underthigh support was not good enough, probably because the seat is low even though the underthigh portion of the seat is reclined upwards...
Thanks. Why don't you test drive the Linea? Am sure you'll love the front seat at least.

The closer the seat to the floor, the lesser the underthigh support for taller people.

Last edited by Delta Wing : 29th January 2010 at 19:57.
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Old 29th January 2010, 21:00   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basilmabraham View Post
...May be the scale reductions for each picture did not work as intended...

...Another aspect to be compared is the underthigh support for the rear seat. By compropmising on the underthigh support, the rear leg room can be improved. In the pictures, Linea seem to have a more wider seat than the City. May be this is a reason for the lower legroom. Does the Line rear seat have better underthigh support than the City rear seat? ...
Hope my previous post clarifies your apprehension on scale reduction.
Underthigh support and legroom are two different things. Underthigh support would depend on the size of the seat, its horizontal incline, the distance from the floor, the cushion material and its contours whereas legroom is simply the space available to the occupant's legs such as kneeroom, floor space etc. And both would also depend on the occupant's anthropometric measurements.

Talking of anthropometric measurements, I read that last year the major Indian automakers (Maruti, Tata and Mahindra etc) had carried out a study and claimed that foreign automakers say they make their cars for India but the ergonomics are still based only on approximated sizes of Indian people (the cars originally designed with the Caucasian people's dimensions in mind and also the consideration that most foreigners drive their own cars) because not much data regarding India is available. This is confusing because average height (and corresponding other things such as seating height, leg length, arm length etc) of Indian populace is lesser than that of most Europeans and North Americans and also Japanese. Shouldn't this mean bigger cabins in cars when foreign companies launch them here as they were originally designed? Also read that ARAI is conducting a study on the anthropometric measurements on Indians. Now would that reduce the size of the cars to come for considerations of FE, going green, parking space etc? Shame if it does, hehe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Not only the legroom, but even the rear headroom (thanks to the sloping roof) is rather compromised in the Linea.

Honda is the master of interior packaging. And for those impressed with the City, you should check out the Jazz.
The superimpose shows that slope of Linea's roof liberates more headroom at the rear than the City and the car is also taller by 17 mm but Linea has a GC of 165 mm compared to the 160 mm of City. So could it be that the 12 mm extra may have been spent into higher positioned seats which eats into headroom or perhaps the floorboard is higher too? I don't know the exact figures for rear headroom of both cars so purposely didn't comment on this. Note that the cushions in City are thinner too.

Yes, the feel of space inside a Honda (City, Civic, Jazz) contrary to what one might expect from the exterior, does make the car appear bigger.


Finally, all those hurt by the apparent criticism of Linea, I would like to put on record that I ABSOLUTELY love the Linea for the overall package she makes and would recommend the car to anyone in that budget. Let the T jet come, I may become a proud owner too is how much I like the car.

Thanks for the response guys.

Last edited by Delta Wing : 29th January 2010 at 21:01.
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Old 29th January 2010, 21:42   #20
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Great article.
When I first read the title, I was expecting just another city vs linea with some rough comparisons and 'how cramped linea's rear seat is!' kinda thread.

But you have got facts and what a comparo, Such a deep insight into the things. I guess you work for some Auto designing?

Though Hondas are short and compact from outside, they are really spacious on the inside. I was like "brilliant!" when I checked out Jazz recently, It is smaller than Punto but interior space is outstanding and that 400 liter boot!

And Honda calls it "Man Maximum Machine Minimum' design philisophy!kudos.

I don't think the article is criticism on linea. But something that's worth reading. Afteral we are all here to discuss cars,aint we?
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Old 29th January 2010, 21:53   #21
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Form Autocar mag. There is not much difference between the legroom in both cars, the difference being 10mm at best. City has more headroom, no doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta Wing View Post
Finally, all those hurt by the apparent criticism of Linea, I would like to put on record that I ABSOLUTELY love the Linea for the overall package she makes and would recommend the car to anyone in that budget. Let the T jet come, I may become a proud owner too is how much I like the car.
Why compare the Linea with the City? There are many others which sell in great numbers. Why everybody wants to compare their choice of car with the Linea? I am appalled.

BTW, I drive a Civic.
Attached Thumbnails
Linea and City: An Ergonomics Comparo-pcit.jpg  

Linea and City: An Ergonomics Comparo-plin.jpg  


Last edited by GTO : 30th January 2010 at 11:33. Reason: PM coming up
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Old 29th January 2010, 21:55   #22
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A great effort, however, photos do not tell complete stories on ergonomics. Being a pilot yourself, you will understand this. Till you do not sit in that seat and reach your hand to the stick, photos will remain photos. The whole exercise is good but doesn't tell the true story about Linea at least. I am not denying that City has greater space and better space management, yet in this study Linea is made out to be a claustrophobic kaboosh which it clearly is not. My family, is of average build Indians and there never has been any complaint on legroom, headroom, thigh support or lumbar support at the rear.

Not doubting your intentions here, but if your are doing this exercise without feeling the stick , I would call it prejudiced.
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Old 30th January 2010, 01:54   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Form Autocar mag. There is not much difference between the legroom in both cars, the difference being 10mm at best. City has more headroom, no doubt.
Why compare the Linea with the City? There are many others which sell in great numbers. Why everybody wants to compare their choice of car with the Linea? I am appalled.

BTW, I drive a Civic.
In the line drawing of City you posted, the front seat travel is depicted as 560-780 (=220) mm. The rear legroom is 630-930 (=300) mm. As I see it, if the front seat was at 560 mm with the rear seat at max legroom of 930 mm, and you move the front seat back to 780 mm, this would reduce 220 mm from the rear legroom to a min of 710 mm (so what's the 630 then). This 220 mm travel for front vs 300 mm at rear translates to 80 mm difference in min/max legroom which is astronomically incorrect.

The danger of relying on incorrect subjective info can also be seen from the height of ANHC which is depicted as 1480 mm (actually 1470 mm), and this is also incorrectly depicted in Linea drawing. What is the guarantee and accountability of the info in the picture there?

Anyone on this transparent forum can compare anything which can be compared so far as there is some good to be derived. I would like to see the next version of Linea with more rear legroom.

Last edited by GTO : 30th January 2010 at 11:34. Reason: Offensive quoted post has been deleted
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Old 30th January 2010, 01:57   #24
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A wonderful writeup! Let us not cast aspersions on the intention of the writer. It takes a huge effort to write a well researched post. Every car has its strong and weak points and lets not take it personally. I am sure no one is here to market one car over other!

I for one would select the City over Linea in a heartbeat, simply because IMO its a better package overall. And sales do tell something, don't they?

Great work and keep it up! I would love to have City Vs Manza?
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Old 30th January 2010, 02:38   #25
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@vulpine101:
Many Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NutsNBolts View Post
A great effort, however, photos do not tell complete stories on ergonomics...
... Linea is made out to be a claustrophobic kaboosh which it clearly is not. My family, is of average build Indians and there never has been any complaint on legroom, headroom, thigh support or lumbar support at the rear...
...doing this exercise without feeling the stick , I would call it prejudiced.
Thanks. Of course photos do not tell the whole story.
Linea is definitely no claustrophobic 'kaboosh', hehe, you get that phrase out of calvin n hobbes? No sir, am sorry if it appeared so. I compared specs of various other cars too. I am sure you are happy with Linea. I am also sure that you wouldn't mind some more extra legroom at the rear to enhance the luxury the car exudes on the outside.
I have TD'ed (or should it be TD'ven ) both cars and the feel is translated to what I wrote, and only those 'feels' which I could back by facts. The 'tall' factor comes in wherever the 'room' feel is described. Mind that the front seats are good, tall or otherwise.

There I go again. The reason why Honda (or Toyota) are good at this ergonomics, especially interior space management, thing is that it has been their survival mantra since the days of competing against loooong, heavy american and europian cars. Who would buy a tinnily built car (in the 60's and 70's) when a solid thing is available unless, the space inside is as good, looks can be accepted(took some time) AND the compact size translates to less weight to less purchase price to more FE? So ergonomics has to be a top concern in these cars. Isn't it reminiscent of why the M800 was such a resounding success? On the other hand, mating these opposites of compact exterior with spacious interior has given rise to the VTEC, VVT, VTVT, VVTi things which will give you more BHP per Liter and thus save on space? The pricing in India, however, is yet another thing and best left alone for another discussion.

Cheers.

PS off topic- The Linea is selling and I hope it continues to do so. It's good to see the car on the road (like a beautiful...er enough said).

Last edited by Delta Wing : 30th January 2010 at 02:40.
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Old 30th January 2010, 08:04   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta Wing View Post
In the line drawing of City you posted, the front seat travel is depicted as 560-780 (=220) mm. The rear legroom is 630-930 (=300) mm. As I see it, if the front seat was at 560 mm with the rear seat at max legroom of 930 mm, and you move the front seat back to 780 mm, this would reduce 220 mm from the rear legroom to a min of 710 mm (so what's the 630 then). This 220 mm travel for front vs 300 mm at rear translates to 80 mm difference in min/max legroom which is astronomically incorrect.
The min and max lengths need not add up. It can vary depending on the seat-height too. Front seat travels down when you move back. You may check some line drawings of other cars in autocar. This difference exist. Does not necessarily mean that they are incorrect.
Quote:
The danger of relying on incorrect subjective info can also be seen from the height of ANHC which is depicted as 1480 mm (actually 1470 mm), and this is also incorrectly depicted in Linea drawing. What is the guarantee and accountability of the info in the picture there?
Even if you assume that there is some amount of error in measurements done, the variations would be small compared to the wrong information wrt the wheelbase of the city on which this whole thread was built upon. I am surprised that you have not cared to redo the comparo.

Last edited by GTO : 30th January 2010 at 11:35. Reason: Removing discussion on offensive term
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Old 30th January 2010, 11:57   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Form Autocar mag. .
Thats brings it quite cleanly. Would like it, if this particular post is moved to the second post in the thread.

Making assumptions as well as calculations based on photographs taken from the websites (or even shot randomly) does not make sense. The vertical camera positioning in the respective photographs, the effects of perspective, the distance of the subject from the camera, all have different effects to how pictures appear.

In this scenario, elevation drawings makes "BEST" sense. Coming from a well renowned magazine like Autocar (having large international presence) those would be the most authentic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
The min and max lengths need not add up. It can vary depending on the seat-height too. Front seat travels down when you move back. You may check some line drawings of other cars in autocar. This difference exist. Does not necessarily mean that they are incorrect.
.
Absolutely. The available space when the seat is pushed fully backward might be hindered even by the backrest angle of the front seat rather than the horizontal travel.

Having said all this, technically Linea should have marginally more room, but even I have seen that it doesn't "feel" so.

But then the effort spent on the photographs is really appreciated.

Last edited by 1100D : 30th January 2010 at 12:01.
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Old 30th January 2010, 12:21   #28
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Nice thread.

Without looking at figures it's very clear that the City has more room then Linea specially at the back. There are no doubts about that.

Many people correctly say Japanese are better in space management then Europeans. Why is it so? My take:

- Honda's philosophy of 'Man maximum Machine minimum' is at work here. I feel all Japanese makers follow that philosophy.

- If you look at Linea / Punto dashboard it seems more 'stylish'. It protudes out more into the passenger cabin then the dash of a i20, Jazz or City. It seems more in your face against the 'far away' style of Asians. Seems like Europeans priorotise style over function. Since we have pictures and drawings here, we should click a picture from the passenger window focussing into the cabin of both Linea / Punto / Polo and City.

- Japanese cars are unobstrusive. European cars seem to have a personality of their own.

- As for rear space, we need to look at where the Europeans are coming from. In Germany a Polo or Punto is a small hatchback. Most of the people there are DINK or just one or two kids. Probably, Europeans believe that rear seats will be used for children bolstered in child seats. This happens in EU. In India the Polo and Punto turn into premium hatchbacks which are chauffer driven. Ditto for City. But Japanese understand the local market requirements better.

- Many people say Punto rear space is less then i20. It is. But what about boot space? Again, I feel Europeans give bigger boot space then Asians (Let's exclude Jazz here.) Europeans get away on weekends to park's, picnics, carry bicycles. Indian's don't. Japanese / koreans understand that and make changes to their cars based on local demands. Europeans either don't understand or don't bother.

The upcoming Polo will have similar leg room as the Punto.

Extend cars across segments and you see this story repeated. Euro Accord has more room then even C, 3 and A4. Altis will have more room then Jetta and Laura. Superb is an exception.
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Old 30th January 2010, 16:10   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
The min and max lengths need not add up.
I never said min/max lengths need to add up. But the difference has to have a reasonable error, not an astronomical one of 80 mm (explained below).
Quote:
It can vary depending on the seat-height too.
It WILL NOT vary depending on seat height (see figures below). You can have a seat the height of 10 ft or even 100 ft and won't make a mm of difference in the legroom. We are talking of distance between parallel lines which wouldn't change till infinity.
Quote:
Front seat travels down when you move back. You may check some line drawings of other cars in autocar. This difference exist. Does not necessarily mean that they are incorrect.
Check the figure for front seat travel in up/down and front back movement.
Name:  seat travel.jpg
Views: 1633
Size:  47.8 KB

Even if you assume that there is some amount of error in measurements done, the variations would be small compared to the wrong information wrt the wheelbase of the city on which this whole thread was built upon. I am surprised that you have not cared to redo the comparo.
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Old 30th January 2010, 16:41   #30
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That's a nice effort in the comparison report - obviously a lot of hard work must've gone into it.

Looking forward to such further reports in the future.
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