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Old 19th July 2010, 01:18   #31
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Well, I've never met a person with such an attitude.
Most of my friends actually think Scorpio's are really "cool". They've associated it with a politicians dadagiri car.
I on the other hand actually dislike Mahindra's, not because of any prejudice or notion that Indian cars are bad, but because I feel that they have horrible suspension and stability (and I'm not an SUV fan).
My disdain for Tata stems from bad prior experience, but even then I can admit that Tata is really raising its game.
To have Indian cars like Tata and Mahindra compete on the level of international players like Honda and Toyota really makes me proud to be an Indian, and people with the prejudice that their own countries products are garbage are IMHO just not worth talking to.
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Old 19th July 2010, 02:41   #32
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Just wanted to share an opinion of a mechanic's comment; I hope we're discussing this not only with cars, but Indian brands as general.

Both of us were working upon fitting generator on my motorcycle while we occasionally spoke generally on motorcycle. He was stating that how poor the quality of Bajaj parts were & were prone to get wear out soon compared to that of Honda & was praising the quality of Yamaha parts. I mistook Honda for Hero Honda & on my behalf I told him Yamaha's quality of parts were nothing compared to Hero Honda. So he clarified telling me that, Hero Honda's quality has come down over the years & not the same as it used to be several years ago. It was only then I understood that he was talking about Honda & not Hero Honda.
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Old 19th July 2010, 12:43   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aargee View Post
Just wanted to share an opinion of a mechanic's comment; I hope we're discussing this not only with cars, but Indian brands as general.

Both of us were working upon fitting generator on my motorcycle while we occasionally spoke generally on motorcycle. He was stating that how poor the quality of Bajaj parts were & were prone to get wear out soon compared to that of Honda & was praising the quality of Yamaha parts. I mistook Honda for Hero Honda & on my behalf I told him Yamaha's quality of parts were nothing compared to Hero Honda. So he clarified telling me that, Hero Honda's quality has come down over the years & not the same as it used to be several years ago. It was only then I understood that he was talking about Honda & not Hero Honda.
Talking about Honda: If all the people who have in their mind that Japanese cars have always been so good, then they should google the history of the Civic. I have seen the first generation Civics. They were beyond words.

These people would neither ever buy a Honda nor a Suzuki, Daihatsu, Toyota, Mitsubishi and Nissan.
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Old 19th July 2010, 13:22   #34
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True CPH. A look into history will show how hard it was for the Japanese to establish a brand name in the 70s. Two factors helped Toyota get a footing in North America.
  1. The oil crisis in the 70s, which "forced" many Americans to let go off their preferred American cars and switch over to much smaller and economic Japanese cars.
  2. The Audi 5000 recalls in the 80s. Bad publicity for another foreign brand in the very competitive American market helped the Japanese OEMs further strengthen their reputation.
But, the credit still goes to Toyota for the "effort". The amount of attention paid to quality and excellnce in the work done, would make anyone successful eventually.

Chinese OEMs at present are a sequel to the Japanese story 30 years back.

In the bigger scheme of things, Indian products have an edge, in terms of perception. Our products are not viewed in the same light as "Made in China". We have a better image and the success lies in leveraging this and making word-class products that speak for itself. To do this we need to buckle up and be more professional as a nation. No more chalta hai attitude.
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Old 19th July 2010, 13:43   #35
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While the OP's friend's opinion was a bit over the top, the fact remains that Indian companies themselves dish out products that are rarely at par with products from the developed countries (even when they have a made in china stamp). What surprises me is that the same Indian companies are able to manufacture a much better product for export though!! Doesnt that reek of a bias from the manufacturer itself?

But giving credit where it is due, the Indian companies are learning fast though and it is just a matter of time that their products gain the same faith and recognition that others enjoy.
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Old 19th July 2010, 14:58   #36
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The fact is that in most cases it takes time and a few generations of cars to catch up and surpass prevailing standards in the automobile industry . Ofcourse there are exceptions but this is mostly the case .Toyota , Lexus , Honda , Hyundai have all passed through this phase .

The two major Indian players are in fact still in their first and second generation of their cars like Vista , Manza is second generation Scorpio , Xylo , Safari are first generation .
Even so there have been major improvements over the years eg. the original and current Indica , the original and current Scorpio .

They of course have certain advantages in understanding the Indian consumer better and thus tailoring the product to Indian tastes and needs . Thus you have an Indica which is big , spacious and diesel .

The real challenge is export markets especially devoloped economies . If Tata and Mahindra can improve qualitiy , service , reliability to such levels that customers there buy these cars on the basis of performance , style and comfort rather than on the basis of cheap price then we can mention Tata and Honda or VW in the same breath .

Its not that Indian brands are bad , they are young and need a little time to mature . Till then they can appeal on only certain parameters like VFM or space etc .

Toyota , Honda , VW, Ford etc are not considered better just because they are foreign . They have better finished all round products .

As has already been mentioned on the thread , its just a matter of time ! Thankfully we have visionaries like Ratan Tata and Anand Mahindra who should make all the right moves .
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Old 19th July 2010, 15:36   #37
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Short answer: Yes, they are.

It doesn't matter whether they really are cheap and downmarket but the opinion that prevails, even in some petrolhead circles, is that Indian brands like Tata and Mahindra just don't match up.

It takes years to erode such opinions and until then, owners of these cars should try to ignore them.
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Old 19th July 2010, 17:28   #38
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Well the refinement and built quality of Indian automotive brands may not be at par with Japanese or German brands but we are improving. apart from quality it is also a matter of perception.Hyundai (even skoda) is still somewhat looked down upon in the west despite the fact that they make perfectly safe and refined cars which are actually just a notch bellow the japs and are soon catching. also what i have noticed is that Tata and Mahindra vehicles are more popular amongst the villager crowd in Delhi, specifically NCR which further adds to the feeling that these vehicle are meant for villagers and not for the urban crowd. also we do not have a 100% indian car on our roads. Indica Vista and scorpio both have outsourced their engine and transmission from europe.
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Old 19th July 2010, 17:48   #39
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Villages and rurals go for Tata and Mahindra only because of their service network and the local mechanic's adeptness in handling these vehicles.
The question can also be asked in a different way: Are Indian brands considering themselves cheap & downmarket?

Last edited by ramzsys : 19th July 2010 at 17:56.
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Old 19th July 2010, 17:54   #40
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First I wanted to mention that I have only gone through the opening post and not the others. So please pardon me for not knowing how the discussion has progressed.

Don't know about what others think, but me view is, Indian car companies are reletively new as compared to most japanese and german brand in India. Still companies like mahindra, Tata and Bajaj not only survive but actually do amazingly well. To the best of my knowledge, tata in the second largest car company in India, in terms of sales volume.

As has correctly been pointed out, Indian companies offer far more bang for the buck than germans and tha japs can ever provide. Yes, Indian companies are a bit lacking in build quality, but so are japs like suzuki who build cars like swift, which rattles more than even a rattle snake. As for germans, how many stories have we read of timing belts in octavia's snaping within 40000 kilometres? Give Indian car companies a few more years and then we'll see who's laughing!

Btw, Indian car companies are cheap huh? Your friend thinks jaguar and land rover is cheap[owned by tatas] or is KTM cheap [owned by bajaj]?

Anyway, If he so trusts japanese brands, tell him to buy a Rs. 10 lakh Innova and take a road trip to leh and ladakh. I suggest who tag along in your scorpio. You will probably need to pull his japanese car out of ditches and over hillocks a 100 times! One more thing, I a drag race, that scoop does come in handy, cause apparently its faster to 100 thana an Innova!!!!
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Old 19th July 2010, 20:21   #41
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In most cases, I guess people take this "point in discussion" to be a passive truth.

My only point is Indian brands may be very good in technical quality, but when it comes to fit and finish they fall flat.
Please do not beat me up on this, but I found this to be true in general. There may be exceptions on either
side of the wall, but I guess that is what pulls the rug on Indian brands and not the technical quality.

Last edited by ampere : 19th July 2010 at 20:22.
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Old 19th July 2010, 20:28   #42
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Going but India made mobiles are best examples to suit the title.
Indian mobiles just do not stand near the big daddys like Nokia, motorola or Sony erricson.
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Old 19th July 2010, 20:36   #43
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Originally Posted by sidd25 View Post
Going but India made mobiles are best examples to suit the title.
Indian mobiles just do not stand near the big daddys like Nokia, motorola or Sony erricson.
Well they are Indian marketed till this point they are Indian branded and Chinese / Taiwanese made so comparison is not apt.
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Old 19th July 2010, 21:20   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH View Post
Talking about Honda: If all the people who have in their mind that Japanese cars have always been so good, then they should google the history of the Civic. I have seen the first generation Civics. They were beyond words.
This is why I said in my previous post that Indian brands are in the same position of what Japanese & American were about several decades ago. The choice leaves us to buy from an experienced manufacturer or a experiencing manufacturer.

Quote:
My only point is Indian brands may be very good in technical quality, but when it comes to fit and finish they fall flat
Why to beat up? This is absolutely true; I would also add few more points...
The fit & finish is good, but poor technology; Fit & finish is good along with good technology, but the technology is basic one

Last edited by aargee : 19th July 2010 at 21:23.
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Old 19th July 2010, 21:54   #45
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Originally Posted by rajushank84 View Post
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It is not only in cars. Many people would blindly buy a Philips mixie and not even consider a Preethi. In some cases, the Preethi mixie would actually be better quality at that particular price point. Another example is people will pay Rs.40 or 50 for a burger at McDonalds, which they frankly dont enjoy as much as a pani puri. But, if the pani-puri wallah raises the price to Rs.40 per plate, how many people will buy?

At the same time, Indian products do need to go up in quality. That challenge is definitely there. But not to the extent that this type of persons blindly judge.
I said this before on various threads, some indians suffer from phoren fetish and you have summed it for me with some examples. A company like Tata has covered a lot of ground in just 11 years while Toyota or honda have taken decades. Tata/Mahindra are competing with companies which started manufacturing cars more than 60-70 years ago. That itself is a great achivement.

I agree license raj being one major reason and in a different way. During those days not only phoren companies but even the indian companies were not allowed to operate. One has to have influence with higher levels of government to start a company. So only few people could start companies and that resulted in less/no competition. So the companies never upgraded their products/services.
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