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Old 13th November 2010, 12:06   #61
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Now this is a very personal opinion.
"If the subsidies are not given to general public for personal use and only given to commercial vehicles, i am not sure whom are you finally trying to benefit? The guy who drives the taxi or the guy who owns the taxi? (the owner of these commercial vehicles probably still go around in a diesel guzzling SUV)

Whats the whole point?

I know a friend's father owns about 100 trucks in Haryana, they stay in a huge house and own at least 5 diesel guzzling cars, i know about. So the subsidy is to benefit these owners? or the drivers who still get paid 5-10K per month? You would be surprised to know the profit they get from each trolley every month.

Subsidies can-not be just removed on the basis of commercial or non commercial basis, it should either exist for everyone or no one. The way to tax these diesel guzzling vehicles can really be either done by stopping to manufacture these cars or by charging extra road tax on specific segments. This is more of a socio-economic-environmental issue that just a environment issue. Infact the premium all these car companies charge on diesel engines in India should ideally go to the government. ( and hopefully the government will use this money to do something for the environment, rather than filling someone's pockets).

Off Topic-
With India's tax structure i don't think the government has less money to implement projects in a more environmentally friendly way. Just that its become a norm to raise smaller issues and divert the general public from bigger topics. I have great respect for Mr Ramesh for rejecting a few projects in Orissa, however there are other controversial projects still running in other states friendly to his party. I wish our politicians can act like true leaders of the country than being just a leader for their parties. "
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Old 13th November 2010, 12:06   #62
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Some more gyan on Diesel and Technology based on Diesel. Click below to read on about it on Discovery News.

DIESEL: THE FUEL OF THE FUTURE

Surprisingly people just can't get over their petrol obsession.

Last edited by dhondusaxena : 13th November 2010 at 12:07. Reason: Restructuring
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Old 13th November 2010, 12:21   #63
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It sounds more like a statement against our diesel pricing policy rather than SUVs bro..

Brush it aside..Keep revving..
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Old 13th November 2010, 13:29   #64
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Actually, as an environmentalist and automotive enthusiast, I completely agree with him.

I'm not against people buying Audi's/ BMWs but I am against them paying subsidized diesel prices only to emit several times more emissions and consume several times more fuel.

A great example is the Polo Tdi. Its a foreign car, yes, but it emits less emissions than most cars on our roads and consumes a ridiculously low amount of diesel. I've seen people get 25 kmpl on regular highway journeys which is very impressive considering the mighty Prius gets only 16kmpl. These are the types of cars that should be encouraged in India

Once a fuel efficiency standard is set, perhaps a mandatory gas guzzler tax that is imposed on cars that get less than 10 kmpl, and increases in severity for every km less it gives per litre.
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Old 13th November 2010, 13:59   #65
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Hello All,

I don't know why there is all this hullaboo about the diesel subsidy and the fact that diesel is cheaper than petrol in india because of taxation. In india a large part of most subsidies go to people who don't really need it. Actually even if you consider countries like US lot of subsidies go to big industry in the name of making it competetive. Now do these companies really need the subsidies ?
Not too sure about that.

The indian IT companies have margins of 30%. Do they need subsidies/SEZs to survive? Not too sure but they get it right. I think Diesel is taxed at a lesser rate because diesel consumption is probably much more than petrol. Now targetting diesel subsidy is going to be difficult since most of the guys who have the diesel mercs/bmws will have enough commerical vehicles also in whose name they will get the subsidised diesel. The people who will be caught out will be poor indian middle class guy who works in an SEZ 30 kms from his home and went for indica/swift diesel because he couldn't afford the petrol for his daily ride.

One more thing to keep in mind India already has huge taxation for luxury cars. people pay double the money for the privilege of running an s class in india over bad roads when compared to what their compatriots pay in the US.

Last edited by vishnurp99 : 13th November 2010 at 14:04.
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Old 13th November 2010, 15:03   #66
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Most SUV.s in Indian roads carry 5-10 people on board, which is relatively cheap than running small cars . how many BMW, Audi's can a normal majority can run ? let him make hybrid cars and 100 cc two wheelers 100% tax free,

such statements and controversies are just to get public attention only
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Old 13th November 2010, 19:05   #67
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Another view point..

What is the the total diesel used by all the indian SUVs above Rs. 15 lacs combined? Compare that with the diesel used for only all diesel hatches.

I am sure the figures for the hatches will be over 100 times that of the SUVs.

The avg diesel hatch cost 5 lac rupees. Now cant the owner of a 5 lakh rupee car afford to pay for fuel? Obviously he can if he has to!!

Singling out BMW/Audis is stupid, simply because the impact of such vehicles is very small in the big picture.

Diesel subsidy for private car owners should cease. Period. However, implementing the same will not be a cakewalk.
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Old 13th November 2010, 21:43   #68
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The really poor farmers do not own tractors, pumpsets or even buy fertilizers. Similarly it is the big transporters who make money rather than the truck drivers. To say that diesel is subsidised heavily is an absurdity. Taxation rates on both petrol and diesel are high . In case of diesel thr oil companies end up losing as the govt taxes diesel, forces them to sell at a lower cost and then gives some money to cover the under recoveries.

The subsidies whether on food, transportation etc hardly reach the really needy people. There was an article in TOI a week or so back where a Rigt to information query had revealed that Delhi was second only to Punjab in release of subsidised agricultural loans. Needless to say, majority of them were cornered by farmhouse owning crorepatis who only grow a few exotic flowers/vegetables/fruits in name of agriculture and travel in Lancruisers and X5's .

Mr . Ramesh would do well to counsel his fellow politicians who are the biggest patrons of these "Diesel Guzzling Behemoths" to give up ther wheel for something more modest.
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Old 13th November 2010, 23:45   #69
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No one will disagree that luxury cars or any cars for that matter should not get the diesel subsidy, it just doesn't make sense. I can't think of a single argument for this.

On another note I wish Ramesh would focus on the huge convoys politicians and official functionaries travel in, that would be nice.

For the diesel subsidy the most sensible solution would probably to add an additional amount to the price of the car which negates the subsidy and this amount can be placed in the diesel subsidy fund.
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Old 14th November 2010, 01:18   #70
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A bit from economic stand point:

One of the major causes of inflation today is the food and fuel today. Mr. Minister might be aware of the the gas guzzling diesel SUV's, hence such a statement. But freeing of diesel prices or increase in diesel prices would directly result in increase in all the other commodities, majority of transportation of goods and services in India is still depended on diesel (be it trucks / public transport / trains).

At the time when common man is already feeling the pinch of inflation and the need of the time is to control inflation, how can someone think of removing the subsidy from diesel. The moment the price of diesel goes up transporters and railway ministry will increase the freight charges, state transport will increase the ticket charges which will have the direct spill over effect on the general public.

If Government cares so much about the environment then:
1. Provide tax benefit to electric cars eg. Reva. It will find huge buyers in 1-2 lakhs price range, but if this happens government will loose the enormous amount of tax that it receives through fuel.
2. Control the price of AutoLPG which has reached the price of diesel. Many people will again switch to hybrid ie petrol and lpg cars.
3. Rationalise the tax structure on cars. As they have done in case of petrol cars ie 1200 cc engine tax benefit.

Let the government have a bottom-up approach in deciding the policy then approaching any issue with the top-down approach.

Indeed a very silly statement from one of the sensible person in Indian politics today (especially after the strong and valid stand taken by environment ministry in regards to Orissa issues, Adarsh society scam and new airport in Mumbai)
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Old 14th November 2010, 01:30   #71
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If all the trucks & public transport run on CNG, the diesel subsidy can be removed. I really don't like the fact that I am subsidising diesel car owners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanjohn123 View Post
What a joke this is, why isn't the government taking into account first of all that these luxury car owners are paying 120 % of the car's price as tax to the government(Govt. is easily earning around 30-50 Lakhs from each car). I think it would cover up the subsidy and still would have enough for the govt. to munch on.
Both diesel & petrol luxury car owners 120% of the car's price. But only diesel owners are able to enjoy the benefits of the subsidy.

Last edited by carboy : 14th November 2010 at 01:42.
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Old 14th November 2010, 13:07   #72
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I think we will have to wait for another 5 years of focussed action before public transport can run on CNG in atleast 50% of india. I don't think CNG is popular or even existant in Tamil nadu/Kerala or Karnataka which are the states that i am aware of.

I think the easiest and most workable step for govt is to have a special uniform diesel tax which folks will have to pay at the time of purchase of a diesel car. This can be some % of the car price and this could be an incremental taxation meaning the % could increase when the absolute cost of the car rises. This should be fairly easy to implement and you make sure that folks pay some money to the govt for making use of diesel subsidy.

This cost will still be transferred to the customers at the end of the day. However the petrol car owners will atleast stop feeling cheated .
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Old 15th November 2010, 09:34   #73
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Uncle Jairam should get after some of the following as part of his environment agenda;

1. Migration corridors of elephants and such like - issues regarding trains killing tuskers etc - summary punishment for Mamta Didi as Minister of Railways!
2. Tiger population decline - capital punishment for poachers
3. Rampant Poaching of our Natural Resources and Wildlife - capital punishment for all poachers.
4. Illegal Iron Ore Mining and Encroachment into Sanctuaries - a la the great Bellary Billionaires - capital punishment for illegal mining and encroachment.
5. Rain water harvesting and solar energy / renewable energy resourcing - pucca subsidies on costs of such renewable energy sources/ technology - removal of taxes and excise etc to make early adoption more easy for the public.
6. Identification and enforcement of green belts across India.
7. Stopping our rivers and shore line getting eroded and polluted the way it is now.
8. Stop illegal sand mining
9. Renew all fresh water bodies by dredging and maintenance

In ref to his issues on emissions and so on;

1. Mandatory for all public transport vehicles in Tier 1 and Tier 2 cities and towns to run on CNG
2. Removal/ Replacement of all public transportation vehicles and others which are more than 15 years old - basis emission check and enforcement (like they did in Calcutta)
3. Ensure environment friendly technology like the Maini Reva, Tata Electrice/ Hybrid cars, SX4 Hybrid, Toyota Hybrid, Mahindra Hybrids, Honda Hybrids etc receive 100% tax and excise exemption thereby promoting consumer adoption.
4. Make CNG freely available across India encouraging consumers to buy vehicles with DUO fuel mode and encouraging vehicle manufacturers to manufacture more of these vehicles.
5. When they talk of BS3 and BS4, make sure that all vehicles inlcuding the autorickshaws and taxis conform to these standards, not just the vehicles being purchased and owned by private individuals.

If reasonably well educated people like Jairam Ramesh would start thinking and acting positively rather than making ill researched and irresponsible statements in the press, at least India wont be a laughing stock in public. Plus a responsible statement, coupled with positive action will certainly motivate a great many of us thinking Indians to do our bit for the environment.
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Old 15th November 2010, 09:43   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
If reasonably well educated people like Jairam Ramesh would start thinking and acting positively rather than making ill researched and irresponsible statements in the press, at least India wont be a laughing stock in public. Plus a responsible statement, coupled with positive action will certainly motivate a great many of us thinking Indians to do our bit for the environment.
I think Jairam Ramesh has been one of the better env ministers till date.
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Old 15th November 2010, 09:51   #75
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certainly yes. however he appears to have blotted his copybook by making a rather ill researched and incorrect statement!

im not for a minute condoning the way these big shots and ministers and so called "farmers" take shelter under various heads and yet enjoy lifestyles which lesser mortals can never dream of.

But making statements of this kind is not going to help at all.

Instead, let him try and lobby internally and make the policymakers change their policies!
and I hope that they are able to "enforce" some of the good things for the environment rather than merely paying lip service like most of our politicians do and have done until now.

Quote:
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I think Jairam Ramesh has been one of the better env ministers till date.
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