[mkpiyengar]

Few important points:

1. The whole thought process of driving properly is not inculcated. Most people are not aware of basic rules like following the sign boards, as they got their license through agent.

2. Who certifies the driving school instructors, are they aware of the basic traffic etiquettes to make the learner follow them. Driving is not just using accelerator, brake and clutch.

3. I've seen so many driving school vehicles asking the learner's to stick to the right most lane @ speeds of 50kmph. They do not want to move, shall someone tell them that right lane is for overtaking.

4. Stringent implementation of granting license based on merit. MOST DIFFICULT TO IMPLEMENT as the RTO are most CORRUPT.

5. All heavy vehicles have to be penalised heavily for driving without indicators, brake lights in opposite direction etc.

6. Pathetic Road condition in certain areas, at least currently in Mumbai. Now, because of this every one wants to avoid the pot-hole and swerves from left to right just to do that.

7. Lastly, it is not only those auto fellows and indica/innova taxi drivers who break rules but even private car owner's drivers do. It is just that they form such a large majority that most of others just don't care and do the same. Which makes it very dangerous.
For Eg. Some times it is so difficult for you to get the moron driving at 50kmph
on the right most lane to give way that you need to go around him to overtake. This calls for lane changing twice first to left lane and again to right lane, unaccounted manoeuvres and high risk of accident.

[anilupadhya]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

man - this is absolutely mad! this typically causes a traffic jam by creating a solid metallic wedge of traffic which is compounded by idiot 2 wheelers and autos! horrible.

I would really appreciate if you could evaluate yourself once before you can comment on the others. I assume you use your car to commute to work and back. Again I assume that you travel alone in your car. Now imagine thousands of educated gentlemen like you traversing through ill planned roads in Bangalore. All of them driving their Big Sedans and SUV's or even the humble hatchbacks..
Now each of these vehicle is either a 4 seater or 5 or a 7 seater.

Just because you have the money and you have paid for the vehicle and taxes, is it right to drive alone in a 4-7seater car especially during peak hours. Isnt that blatant Ignorance of the civic sense instilled during your education.

Imagine if these 'Lords of the roads' were to share the space with atleast 3 others who travel alone, we can reduce traffic density by a huge extent. But NO, prestige play a huge role in India. "Oh, you travel in bus everyday? Arre he goes in X's car everyday, just to save on fuel costs".. No one wants to be downgraded or degraded.

Fine.. get yourself a premium Two wheeler. It saves on fuel, it saves on time, and it saves India so much money in terms of subsidy..

I have a diesel car at home which I never use during the weekdays. I am killing the logic of owning a diesel car by not using it. But the logic of travelling in a single or a two seater vehicle during peak hours on high density roads, saving that amount of fuel and ease of parking beats any thing put forth.

[Chetan_Rao]

Lane demarcation (or lack of it) is not really an excuse for lane indiscipline. How much sense does it take to ensure one drives without unnecessarily swerving all over the place?

Most people just can't resist that gap in traffic, even if it's in a lane you shouldn't be in (how I hate the guys who overtake me just to cut across to take a turn). 9/10 traffic jams occur because some idiot couldn't help going for that gap that would get him a few inches ahead of his 'competitors' on-road.

There's no scarcity of laws, but what use are rules if nobody follows them, and they know they can flout it all they want and get away with it?

[Torqy]

Lane driving? Are you kidding?
For that, first we have to learn the meaning of Queue.

-- Torqy

[Zed]

Originally Posted by Suess

i also see a big difference between Delhi/North India traffic and Chennai traffic, which, kind of, relief. people in Chennai, take care and concern that they don't scratch you car, even more carefull if it's new!

though, traffic (un)discipline is same be it north, south, east or west.

Not sure if Chennai-ites will agree. I can speak from personal experience that there are enough idiots on the roads in Chennai to give their brethren in Bangalore \ Mumbai & Delhi a run for their money. The avg speed at which traffic flows in Chennai is probably slower than Mumbai and Delhi, perhaps contributing to your perception about Traffic in Chennai.

While many posts express hope that with increased awareness road users will slowly start being more civil as time goes by, my understanding is that the opposite is likely to happen unless we tackle the larger issue of civic sense and the specific issue of traffic sense at the functional unit level - home, school, universities, offices and so on. The root of the problem in my humble opinion is ...

1. A majority of motorist are not even aware that there is a problem as the madness that passes off as 'driving' in India has been their reality since they were children. The issue become apparent only when one becomes a victims of a preventable accident (which is probably 90% of accidents in Indian). Or during their first visit overseas when they realize how people drive in the rest of the world.
2. More importantly & sadly for all of us, the Authorities in Charge of traffic management are in the same boat as well. So are certified driving instructors. So are the driving license issuing authorities. Some of the worst offenders of traffic rules and etiquettes are traffic policemen on 2 and 4 wheels, vehicles belonging to various arms of the government\administration and public transport vehicles.
The only real change possible is over a generation and that too if we start leading by example. Introducing a new chapter in the syllabi in itself will not really help.

[Suess]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Lane demarcation (or lack of it) is not really an excuse for lane indiscipline. How much sense does it take to ensure one drives without unnecessarily swerving all over the place?

Most people just can't resist that gap in traffic, even if it's in a lane you shouldn't be in (how I hate the guys who overtake me just to cut across to take a turn). 9/10 traffic jams occur because some idiot couldn't help going for that gap that would get him a few inches ahead of his 'competitors' on-road.

There's no scarcity of laws, but what use are rules if nobody follows them, and they know they can flout it all they want and get away with it?

Totally agree. if people have little common sense and patience, roads can be different place together in comparision to what we see today.

Originally Posted by anilupadhya

I would really appreciate if you could evaluate yourself once before you can comment on the others. I assume you use your car to commute to work and back. Again I assume that you travel alone in your car. Now imagine thousands of educated gentlemen like you traversing through ill planned roads in Bangalore. All of them driving their Big Sedans and SUV's or even the humble hatchbacks..
Now each of these vehicle is either a 4 seater or 5 or a 7 seater.

.....

you are right in saying that travelling alone in big cars, is wastage of space on road, fuel and just creating more and more environmental hazards day-by-day. But, and it's a BIG BUT, giving the conditions of our public transport it is not always possible to reach your desitination with public transport alone and sometimes in single piece. Solution, small cars for city commute, car sharing and of course 2-wheelers.

What Shankar said was not, in my opinion, targetted to all 2-wheelers but to those who wants to close every gap and space on road, without any care for other users on road and no respect for any rule in traffic rule book. Those guys are getting killed everyday in 1000s on indian roads. and for that matter these guys are also driving in cars, autos, buses, trucks etc. as you might have heard the joke or saying which goes like "In UK we drive on left of the road, in india we drive on whatever left of the road!"

[rahul4640]

Originally Posted by mkpiyengar

Stringent implementation of granting license based on merit. MOST DIFFICULT TO IMPLEMENT as the RTO are most CORRUPT.

Just wished to add that here in Calcutta the newly elected state government is so frustrated with the tout rajs that they have decided that all new licenses, smart cards (RC document) and various other route permits shall henceforth be delivered to the concerned persons only by post. This is being done to eliminate the touts, they claim.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/111082...y_14371367.jsp
They also say that this system will also verify the authenticity of the addresses of the applicants.
Regards,
Rahul Biswas
Calcutta

[Suess]

Originally Posted by mkpiyengar

Few important points:

1. The whole thought process of driving properly is not inculcated. Most people are not aware of basic rules like following the sign boards, as they got their license through agent.

....
4. Stringent implementation of granting license based on merit. MOST DIFFICULT TO IMPLEMENT as the RTO are most CORRUPT.

.....

yes, corruption is a burning issue now. RTOs are just not most corrupt but also most neglected by government. Government doesn't seem to think that license, and fit for road certificate for HMV, Commercial vehicles are of any importance to national growth and civilized country.

I think one of the way to get curb on corruption in ATOs is to make a. Driver's Training compulsory b. Driving Test Compulsory (both theory and practical) c. make this process computerised i.e you should give theory test on PC and test centre/area should be on CCTV. Also put the camera in test vehicle to record your practical test drive. d. no HMV/commercial vehicle should be given permit without proving its road worthiness through a independent company.

but i know it is just wishful thinking...not going to happen, at least not in near future. :-(

Originally Posted by rahul4640

Just wished to add that here in Calcutta the newly elected state government is so frustrated with the tout rajs that they have decided that all new licenses, smart cards (RC document) and various other route permits shall henceforth be delivered to the concerned persons only by post. This is being done to eliminate the touts, they claim.
Licence by post to tackle graft
They also say that this system will also verify the authenticity of the addresses of the applicants.
Regards,
Rahul Biswas
Calcutta

this is at least one step taken but won't help much IMO, you still get license through tout and get it posted on your address!

[midlifecrisis]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

I do not think we will for the foreseeable future. The main reason is the highly disparate traffic sharing the same stretch of tarmac.

In towns the number of lanes at any point depends on the TSRs, Rickshaws, bikes, etc. It is an amorphous mess. Buses stop anywhere and everywhere.

On the highway Tempo's, Cycles, Bullock carts create the same chaos.

To add to the 'fun' we have the habit of signalling as we please. For example, right blinker for I am willing to be overtaken, over (or should it be under-)taking from the left with impunity ang hogging the right lane, flashing lights not as a 'come on' but get our of my way, and so on. We have forgotten the basic tenet that you signal your intention and not what you want the other chap to do.

My thoughts exactly. Why do people assume that we need to have traffic the same as you see in a western country???(Someone mentioned Germany) We see people pretty much observing a good lane system on the new expressways. In the city, the scenario is very different. The variety of traffic and the different speeds of each vehicle added to the fact that we have by lanes every 50 to 100 metres(at least in Hyderabad we do) would render a lane system impossible.

[mkpiyengar]

Originally Posted by midlifecrisis

My thoughts exactly. Why do people assume that we need to have traffic the same as you see in a western country???(Someone mentioned Germany) We see people pretty much observing a good lane system on the new expressways. In the city, the scenario is very different. The variety of traffic and the different speeds of each vehicle added to the fact that we have by lanes every 50 to 100 metres(at least in Hyderabad we do) would render a lane system impossible.

I've observed a different pattern emerging while driving in express way, which is dangerous. I'm referring to the Mumbai-Pune expressway in particular.

During earlier years, the right most lane was always empty and was used strictly for over taking only. We used to meticulously move back to the middle lane after over taking from right lane.

Nowadays, everyone wants to be on the right most lane irrespective of speed. They must be doing about 80kmph and you signal them for pass, but they wouldn't budge. We have to drive around them. I'm forced to honk repeatedly.

Even Volvo's would go at 100kmph on the right most lane and would not budge, when you need to pass them. Just do not understand this new found fascination to sticking to Right most lane come what may.

Maybe it is published some where that in US everyone drives in Right lane, and guys just follow, or new crop of drivers don't know the basics of signalling.

God Bless Anna for his fight.....May be then things will change.!!
Cheers

[mkpiyengar]

Originally Posted by rahul4640

Just wished to add that here in Calcutta the newly elected state government is so frustrated with the tout rajs that they have decided that all new licenses, smart cards (RC document) and various other route permits shall henceforth be delivered to the concerned persons only by post. This is being done to eliminate the touts, they claim.
Licence by post to tackle graft
They also say that this system will also verify the authenticity of the addresses of the applicants.
Regards,
Rahul Biswas
Calcutta

Hey Rahul,
Nice to learn about the initiative, but it is the actual implementation that needs to be done meticulously. Just not handing over the license and sending by post cannot resolve the problem. All the steps for issuing license has to be perfectly streamlined without any margin for touts. Agent can be used to facilitate the genuine but not at the cost, where the integrity of license itself is lost.

I recollect in Pune they had put up Camera at Signals, so that those who do not obey are caught. Worked very well too, proof being my friend drove past a Red Light at 11.30.p.m. He as promptly send a challan for paying the fine in court within 7 days or face license suspension. !!
Sad part being after few months the dept, did not have paper in stock for printing the challans!! Phew !! Do not know to what extent it is true but seems believable.

Firstly, i understand from reading at various places that the RTO's are most under staffed and kept that way so that it can breed corruption. How would you expect a office going person to come to RTO office at 11.00 a.m and spend 2-3 hours waiting at various counters?
In the Overdrive Aug issue if i re-collect correctly, it took 4 hrs to get international license after going from counter to counter and that to issued without any test !!!
We opt for easy way out give the agent 1000 bucks license delivered to your door step.

[shankar.balan]

what is this post meant to be Anil? some kind of value judgement on people who use cars and SUV's?

If so, I d like to know who appointed you the judge and jury in whether people have a right to use their SUV's or Cars alone or with company.

Your anger as it comes through sounds a bit like a "have not" vs "have" argument!

Incidentally for your info, we have one vehicle at home and use it for our daily commute - two of us travel in it to our office and back. I drop my spouse to her office, commute to mine, park, then commute to pick her up and head back home. We did have 2 cars earlier but we decided that we would try in some way to reduce our carbon footprint and sold one off. This is why I keep only one vehicle at this time, when I can very easily afford another one.

If our public transport "last mile" connectivity, were atleast half way decent, I would be happy to leave the vehicle at home and use the public transportation system too.

If car pooling were viable with a couple of colleagues, we would try and do that too - unfortunately as of now it is not viable on account of differing conveniences and timings to and from office.

However, I am not and have never had pretensions to being some sort of "holier than thou" person or "sanyasi" and hence I dont need to apologise or justify my usage of my car.

All I was talking about here in my post is a lament on the sad lack of common road manners, inability of most road users to give way and yield to others including pedestrians when necessary and following proper road rules. Also a lament on the bad habit that most road users seem to have, of "barging in", "lane cutting" and "causing jams by creating solid metallic wedges of vehicles at narrow entry points". All these are clearly visible on the daily commute - at least, to me.

Personally, I dont break any of the rules and I try to ensure that common courtesies and road manners, lane discipline, use of indicators, stopping for pedestrians an designated crossings etc are followed when Im driving my SUV. I dont think I need to be reviled for my driving habits by you, Anil or any other. Thanks!

Originally Posted by anilupadhya

I would really appreciate if you could evaluate yourself once before you can comment on the others. I assume you use your car to commute to work and back. Again I assume that you travel alone in your car. Now imagine thousands of educated gentlemen like you traversing through ill planned roads in Bangalore. All of them driving their Big Sedans and SUV's or even the humble hatchbacks..
Now each of these vehicle is either a 4 seater or 5 or a 7 seater.

Just because you have the money and you have paid for the vehicle and taxes, is it right to drive alone in a 4-7seater car especially during peak hours. Isnt that blatant Ignorance of the civic sense instilled during your education.

Imagine if these 'Lords of the roads' were to share the space with atleast 3 others who travel alone, we can reduce traffic density by a huge extent. But NO, prestige play a huge role in India. "Oh, you travel in bus everyday? Arre he goes in X's car everyday, just to save on fuel costs".. No one wants to be downgraded or degraded.

Fine.. get yourself a premium Two wheeler. It saves on fuel, it saves on time, and it saves India so much money in terms of subsidy..

I have a diesel car at home which I never use during the weekdays. I am killing the logic of owning a diesel car by not using it. But the logic of travelling in a single or a two seater vehicle during peak hours on high density roads, saving that amount of fuel and ease of parking beats any thing put forth.

[Suess]

Originally Posted by midlifecrisis

My thoughts exactly. Why do people assume that we need to have traffic the same as you see in a western country???(Someone mentioned Germany) We see people pretty much observing a good lane system on the new expressways. In the city, the scenario is very different. The variety of traffic and the different speeds of each vehicle added to the fact that we have by lanes every 50 to 100 metres(at least in Hyderabad we do) would render a lane system impossible.

well it seems like we can assume to have everything (be it electronics, right to free speech, things we can buy only in Europe/USA, their culture of so openness, music, films, literature, education sysytem and salaries too..list goes on) here like people have in western countries but we don't want to have anything, like western countries, which interfere with our comfort. it doesn't matter if it good for society or people at large. well, you can not blame government on current state of affairs, as it has come from us. us, who don't want to give any personal comfort for larger good and don't the things like we have in west.

having an amorphous mess of traffic on bad road doesn't make you indicate left and go straight! it doesn't make you to be in left most lane to take right either and also it's doesn't compel you to create as many many lane as you want to take right turn. does it tell you not to let other person take his legitimate turn just because you want to go staright from wrong lane and want to do it before him? does it make you to cut corners and change lanes when turning?

I don't think so. and why do we it on Highways anyway and pathways in building compounds?

BTW, I mentioned Germany. I was telling about the traffic jams which might take sometimes 3-4 hrs, in worst case even days, to clear up and people still wait in their lane, leaving the overtake, service lane free!! they get on curb, they make space for emergency vehicle in city if in traffic jam and do not try to follow that Amulance. I have mentioned about "no-lane crossing marks(zig-zag)" getting dust to say how disiciplined on road can change the picture of traffic we have today on our roads.

[anilupadhya]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

what is this post meant to be Anil? some kind of value judgement on people who use cars and SUV's?

It is in reaction to the comment made by you.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

man - this is absolutely mad! this typically causes a traffic jam by creating a solid metallic wedge of traffic which is compounded by idiot 2 wheelers and autos! horrible.

What do you have to say about your generalized comment?

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

If so, I d like to know who appointed you the judge and jury in whether people have a right to use their SUV's or Cars alone or with company.

I suppose no one gave you the right or appoint you as the judge to pass a decision on people who commute by 2 wheelers.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Your anger as it comes through sounds a bit like a "have not" vs "have" argument!

It aint anger. It was just an argument against the illogical decisions taken by people now a days. I am just trying to use this medium to communicate whats right and whats not. Again, its what I feel is right and that again can be backed or thrashed by people who have common sense.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Incidentally for your info, we have one vehicle at home and use it for our daily commute - two of us travel in it to our office and back. I drop my spouse to her office, commute to mine, park, then commute to pick her up and head back home. We did have 2 cars earlier but we decided that we would try in some way to reduce our carbon footprint and sold one off. This is why I keep only one vehicle at this time, when I can very easily afford another one.

1 vehicle = 1 suv = 7 seater. how many are travelling? just 2. period of travel = peak hours. Route taken = roads with high density traffic. i dont think i have to compare the space taken by a SUV as against a two wheeler. what is more idiotic?

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

If our public transport "last mile" connectivity, were atleast half way decent, I would be happy to leave the vehicle at home and use the public transportation system too.

Quite frankly, how many times have you traveled in a public transport in the last 2 years? have you used the volvo bus that is plying everywhere? Now your argument would be "its never on time". let me tell you. they are fast. if not for the traffic density, they would cover the same distance as you would with the current density.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

If car pooling were viable with a couple of colleagues, we would try and do that too - unfortunately as of now it is not viable on account of differing conveniences and timings to and from office.

That is what everyone ends up saying.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

However, I am not and have never had pretensions to being some sort of "holier than thou" person or "sanyasi" and hence I dont need to apologise or justify my usage of my car.

Suit yourself.. this ain't any court anyways. its your opinion vs my opinion.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

All I was talking about here in my post is a lament on the sad lack of common road manners, inability of most road users to give way and yield to others including pedestrians when necessary and following proper road rules. Also a lament on the bad habit that most road users seem to have, of "barging in", "lane cutting" and "causing jams by creating solid metallic wedges of vehicles at narrow entry points". All these are clearly visible on the daily commute - at least, to me.

Personally, I dont break any of the rules and I try to ensure that common courtesies and road manners, lane discipline, use of indicators, stopping for pedestrians an designated crossings etc are followed when Im driving my SUV. I dont think I need to be reviled for my driving habits by you, Anil or any other. Thanks!

Traffic rules are meant to be followed. Even I do so. I am sure most of the educated "2 wheeler" population would do so. Its basic civic sense.

I am just hoping that people could use a bit of common sense too.

Signing off.
Anil

[shankar.balan]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.
So whats it to be then? A Duel with Daggers or Pistols drawn at Sunrise?
Not worth the effort and energy in my opinion - because opinions on these subjects will always differ.

Frankly, road manners in India look like they are a thing of the past in any case, no matter how much you or I rant about them on Fora such as this one!

cheers.

Originally Posted by anilupadhya

It is in reaction to the comment made by you.



What do you have to say about your generalized comment?



I suppose no one gave you the right or appoint you as the judge to pass a decision on people who commute by 2 wheelers.



It aint anger. It was just an argument against the illogical decisions taken by people now a days. I am just trying to use this medium to communicate whats right and whats not. Again, its what I feel is right and that again can be backed or thrashed by people who have common sense.



1 vehicle = 1 suv = 7 seater. how many are travelling? just 2. period of travel = peak hours. Route taken = roads with high density traffic. i dont think i have to compare the space taken by a SUV as against a two wheeler. what is more idiotic?



Quite frankly, how many times have you traveled in a public transport in the last 2 years? have you used the volvo bus that is plying everywhere? Now your argument would be "its never on time". let me tell you. they are fast. if not for the traffic density, they would cover the same distance as you would with the current density.



That is what everyone ends up saying.



Suit yourself.. this ain't any court anyways. its your opinion vs my opinion.



Traffic rules are meant to be followed. Even I do so. I am sure most of the educated "2 wheeler" population would do so. Its basic civic sense.

I am just hoping that people could use a bit of common sense too.

Signing off.
Anil