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Old 5th July 2017, 18:04   #16
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Default Re: Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?

The cars which are equipped with weak projector or halogen lamps should continue to get fog lamps.
1. In my case, I have a Honda City Zx anniversary edition which came with foglamps as an additional feature. These foglamps help me in offering lateral visibility bigtime during night time drives in city limits and helps in avoiding sharp stones on the way.

2. I think highend cars are ditching them due to advanced and intelligent led illumination which they are equipped with. I request luxury car owners to comment on this aspect.

3. As others have pointed out some cars just have them for namesake/ornamentation. I have also seen many people using them as DRLs only.

4. I think a fog lamp can assist when headlamps fail only if they are powerful enough
(eg: projector led lamps) . I remember a member posting a DIY on installing such units on his blue swift.

5. Maybe it is a new norm among designers to ditch foglamps giving rise to new design philosophy.

On a lighter note I would like to add that even prefacelift alto 800 didn't get foglamps where as nano had them from the beginning on the top end variant and still has them.
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Old 5th July 2017, 20:17   #17
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Default Re: Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
+1 to that. Two more reasons that front foglamps must continue to be offered:

1. They can be a lifesaver if your headlamps conk off!
This situation has happened with me once in Nano and I was glad I had Fog lamps for help. Nano's fog lamps have decent amount of light and can be used in emergency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
But these fog lamps actually help here in India - they help light up the immediate front - and hence help us better see the state of road (surface) immediately ahead of the car.
I stay in a society where I need to drive some distance to reach my building.
There are elders, kids and people sitting on benches inside society road. So once I get inside society I switch to Fog lamps to avoid glare.

Fog lamps help in city where you don't really need to switch on Headlights in places where we have street lights.

I don't know how much these are effective in real fog actually, I guess the concept is that fog lamps being on lower side would be easily visible to oncoming cars?
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Old 5th July 2017, 22:05   #18
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Default Re: Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?

Ideally DRLs should substitute fog lamps. They're way more efficient! I've seen some people run around only on DRLs just because it's bright enough- never had DRLs in my cars so I'll leave it there.

If placed and positioned correctly, they can act as fog lamps too by providing lighting to the immediate surroundings! Since RGB LEDs can change the colour of the light produced, you can have yellow lights for foggy conditions!

And maybe that's why they're doing away with fog lamps- the same effect can be obtained with the normal headlight unit ( if designed properly)( LED headlamps etc).

And doing away with headlamps is dumb- what about pedestrian safety?
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Old 5th July 2017, 22:51   #19
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Default Re: Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?

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Originally Posted by DicKy View Post

2. Good riddance to those (no offence) Vento/Rapid idiots who think they
are cool by driving with their fog lamps on, but unwittingly cause irritation to the traffic behind with the garish red rear
fog lamp.
Well, I am one of those idiots with a Rapid who drive with their fog lamps on because they actually help in illuminating the road in front of you and not just for aesthetic purposes and yes they do look good in the late afternoons with the parking lamps on as well. Also, what colour fog lamp do you suggest for the rear? Because as far as I know, red has been the standard for many years now.
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Old 5th July 2017, 22:53   #20
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Default Re: Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbohead View Post
And doing away with headlamps is dumb- what about pedestrian safety?
The day when headlamps are done away with is still far away. It can become a reality when navigation and vehicle to vehicle communication is at a very advanced state. At that time, the cars will have the ability to stop at the sense any obstruction(there are already such things available). So pedestrian safety must not be an issue at that time.
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Old 5th July 2017, 23:31   #21
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Default Re: Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?

Till there's a driver, a windshield, a pair of headlights, I'd like my fogs too. They are like jewels to the front end...
Attached Thumbnails
Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?-topaz-4430.1.-copy.jpg  

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Old 6th July 2017, 01:26   #22
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Default Re: Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?

Two things with me over the past twelve years:
1. I have used my fog lights frequently.

2. I have not driven in any fog.
Yes, the years coincide with my leaving cold, damp, rainy misty/foggy UK and moving to Southern India. "fog" lights are essential for illuminating near and wide without any disturbance to others. Small city roads see a lot of my foglights.

For those up North, that do have to cope with actual real fog, surely fog lights are useful? The earlier-quoted article talks about claims that modern headlight technology replaces them. Two more things:
1. It's India. Excepting, perhaps, luxury imports, what modern headlight technology?

2. ...And even if, does that technology know to shine low and wide?
The article mentions the nuisance of rear fog lamps. Yes, where high-intensity rear fogs are fitted (last three decades or so in UK) these are like rear mainbeams. Horrible. But they are separately switched, and only those that know only two positions, all-on or all off, for the knob commit this nuisance. On the positive side, high-intensity rear fogs can be a big factor in not being in the middle of a foggy pile up.

And one thing:
1. Foglights do look good too
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Old 6th July 2017, 08:02   #23
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Default Re: Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?

I doubt DLRs will replace fog lamps. DRLs will, I believe, remain a cosmetic add-on (an eye liner).

I reckon the luxury brands are omitting Fog lamps to set a trend; like Apple did with USB-C, Lightening adapter, Thunderbolt, etc.

I hope Fogs stay unless someone comes up with a good replacement.
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Old 6th July 2017, 08:12   #24
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Default Re: Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?

Ok, I did some digging up on related stuff.. this is what I found :

- LED lights are focused beams which shoot straight.. such lights happen to illuminate the lower portions over a distance simply because of the earth's curvature and lights nature to split after travelling a reasonable distance from its source.

- Laser lights will be even more focused and will be much worse for short visibility.

- Such lights affect the retina/vision of the oncoming person/motorist because they have more penetrative properties (Laser is used in surgeries afterall) and carry much more heat with them.

- Yellow lights are much more "nature friendly" as in they mimick the properties of the sun i.e to spread light wide and tall, illuminate large areas and without disturbing the human eyes. (There is a study that yellow bulbs at home are much more relaxing than white).

- Yellow lights have a longer wavelength yet with lesser intensity so they cut through fog better.. if we try the same through projector lamps/HID/LED they will blast a thick beam through the ballast and even in clear roads we can see dust particles, rainwater particles/mist and insects disturbing what would otherwise have been a clearer view from yellow lights.

- Fog lamps DO help.. even if marginally and even if not in fog, they focus on the sides and immediate lower portions and to me visibility is the first in the line of safety, not ABS, not seatbelts, not structure and not SRS.. they come only after.

Given all these studies and so much more that I can quote, my conclusion is that these are measures for cutting costs and saving weight.. yes fog lamps weigh upto 3 kilograms and need a reinforced lower bumper section to hold them. It will also coincidentally improve efficiency due to lower battery use & lesser weight. It may be shocking to consider that a company like Mercedes-Benz will resort to such tactics to save weight but why not? I don't think there is one perfect company with true fondness for its buyers or to the nature at large.

Either that or the companies are still at the cross-roads and deciding via experimentation on how lighting helps.. they obviously thought powerful, focused beams from a massive ballast will do the job.. they won't, not in all circumstances. Given so much of electricity draining, near-useless stuff in luxury cars such as multiple touch-screens, sunroof, massage seats (S-Class), mood-lighting!, puddle lamps etc, why not a simple lower fog-lamp for safety of others and the driver? I know for a fact that they work and so do many others as have been rightly said here.

Great contributions guys.
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Old 6th July 2017, 09:43   #25
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Default Re: Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?

I honestly feel that the fog lamps beam/throw reflects back as a user and sometimes when seen from the front/head-on.

I like my fog lamps and it was especially handy in a low car like the erstwhile Ford Figo.

Mitsubishi Pajero SFX's fog lamp lit up the sides brilliantly for me to drive and see the edges when there was intense fog.

Fog lamps do look good and I always check if they are aligned properly and are working, because if one of the beam conks off, it will be a savior [has happened once, when both beams went off in a Scorpio VLX on a very foggy night at 1/2 am]

DRL's should co-exist with fogs as well as twin beam set up for low and high beams and low beams should be on when we switch to high beams on highways, so that I can switch off the fog-lamps.
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Old 6th July 2017, 12:36   #26
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Default Re: Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?

Although the Fog Lamps enhances the frontal look of the cars, I prefer having them all time is due to the uniform nature of illumination thrown out by them.

During heavy rains or thick fogs, a part of the light beam thrown out from the headlamps tends to scatter all around and create a screen of light in front, thus hampering the visibility.

The Fog lamps, for the reason of being placed much lower, enhance the driver’s visibility under such adverse situations. To me it is mandatory equipment and not just a fancy feature.
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Old 6th July 2017, 12:40   #27
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Default Re: Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?

Sorry on going OT here. Here are the fog lamps on my Swift (They are Bi xenon projector - 35W & 4300K):

Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?-img_20170705_2217081024x576.jpg

I have aligned them lower than the headlight low beam cut off so the light is on the road than on the eyes of the oncoming users. It is aligned lower than Level 1 of the headlight.
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Old 6th July 2017, 14:15   #28
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Default Re: Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
my conclusion is that these are measures for cutting costs and saving weight.. yes fog lamps weigh upto 3 kilograms and need a reinforced lower bumper section to hold them. It will also coincidentally improve efficiency due to lower battery use & lesser weight. It may be shocking to consider that a company like Mercedes-Benz will resort to such tactics to save weight but why not?

Either that or the companies are still at the cross-roads and deciding via experimentation on how lighting helps.. they obviously thought powerful, focused beams from a massive ballast will do the job.. they won't, not in all circumstances. Given so much of electricity draining, near-useless stuff in luxury cars such as multiple touch-screens, sunroof, massage seats (S-Class), mood-lighting!, puddle lamps etc, why not a simple lower fog-lamp for safety of others and the driver? I know for a fact that they work and so do many others as have been rightly said here.
Umm.. I would beg to differ here. Of course, providing yellow lights would benefit in fog, but it is an evolving convention right from 'cost-cutting' brands like Maruti to 'premium' brands like Mercedes to provide white lights which are emitted by LEDs under the lens. It is not as simple as a 'Powerful beam with a massive ballast' nor is it some HID Bi-Xenon stuff. I have said this earlier in another thread yesterday, and repeating the same here.

When you speak about Mercedes giving bells and whistles and omitting on a fog lamp, my jaws dropped. Do you think that a manufacturer who gives you so many bells and whistles would omit on a pair of fog lights to save 3 kilos? There are hundreds of places where they could save more than 3 kilos rather than a fog lamp.

Lets forget this and get to the actual matter. The big brands are switching to LEDs for multiple reasons. It is nowhere cheap compared to HID or Halogen. Hence, lets take out the cost cutting thing off this discussion. When you speak of powerful beam, you should refer to Halogens or HIDs(more seriously) which actually are much of an annoyance. Let me explain how your theory is true, but the use case is something else:

1. Speaking about the directional beams of LED and Laser, you should keep in mind that this is not ONE single beam doing its job. Lets start from the Corolla sold in India - It has FOUR LEDs inside its Low beam cluster which can be focussed on four different areas. That means you dont have a single hot spot and four spots which can be angled differently. And since they are angled wide, the opposite vehicle doesnt get a bright glare but rather can see only a part of the beam since it is spread evenly and well.

As we go higher up the price chain, Mercedes had an array of around 40 LEDs to light up only the Low beam for the outgoing E Class. The new E Class has 82 LEDs inside the cluster. Now imagine whether it is better to have one huge light focussed at one direction at front or small, multiple lights which can illuminate different sections of the road.

2. Coming to the illumination range and width, like I explained earlier, it makes sense to have fog lights when your main beams cannot illuminate certain parts of the road like front short range and corners. But if you already have a main beam which can practically illuminate any section in front, and dynamically, why would you even need additional lights? That is why if we have a conventional Halogen or HID light, you will find fog lights to be effective. But if you add fog lights below a Multi beam LED setup, I dont think it will hardly make a difference.

3. I had written a post here http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ghts-cars.html (Carnegie Mellon researchers develop 'Rain Lights' for cars) about the role of headlights in the cars of the future. If visiblity in fog is a problem, then you are offered a night vision system in the luxury barges. When that is itself offered, would the manufacturer compromise visibility for saving weight or cost cutting?

In the end, I find this idea of omitting fog lights a bad idea ONLY if the main beams are not able to do a good job of substituting the role of the fog lights. If they are, then it obviously makes fog lights redundant. For example, though the Suzuki Ignis and DZire come with LED headlights, they still come with fog lights since the main beams are very basic versions of LED lighting and are nowhere close to the higher end systems like I mentioned. Hence, fog lights are indeed provided here.

Same applies to the new Honda city. Though they provide LED headlights, they still provide extra LED fog lights since the headlights are again reflector based which may not give the coverage that the fog lamps will.

One important thing in the field of automotive lighting is how linear the lights are to the drivers eye when you see the road. If the lights are too low, it creates shadows from the point of view of the driver and that is the reason fog lights are not made to be too powerful. If you draw a line from the drivers head to where he sees the road closest to the car, you will find the headlights to be located almost inline. This is done to avoid shadows caused by small obstacles on the road like stones, or road humps and so on. These shadows can sometime conceal the presence of potholes and other depressions on the road surface especially in our conditions.

Hence, the developments on the forward lighting topic is now getting concentrated more at the headlight level rather than separate fog lights or light bars such. We find such jugaads only in India. The intention is to improve lighting from the line of sight of the driver, rather than put multiple headlights all over the car, unless you have a specific off road requirement like rooftop lights etc. This will improve the way the driver sees things on the road.
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Old 6th July 2017, 16:31   #29
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Default Re: Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Lets forget this and get to the actual matter. The big brands are switching to LEDs for multiple reasons. It is nowhere cheap compared to HID or Halogen. Hence, lets take out the cost cutting thing off this discussion. When you speak of powerful beam, you should refer to Halogens or HIDs(more seriously) which actually are much of an annoyance.
Of course, I'm all too aware of the different types of illumination systems in cars starting with HID's, neons, LED's, curve LED's and the latest - OLED's and lasers. I guess I didn't back up my previous post with what I'd read earlier so here goes.

IIHS has recently, gotten into illumination rankings as well, apart from their usual safety ratings. They have this to say about Mercedes Benz and many other premium brands (kindly note I used Mercedes Benz as a single example, there are many others too, guilty of poor performance) :

Quote:
Among the 44 headlight systems earning a poor rating, the halogen lights on the BMW 3 series are the worst. A driver with those headlights would have to be going 35 mph or slower to stop in time for an obstacle in the travel lane. A better choice for the same car is an LED curve-adaptive system with high-beam assist, a combination that rates marginal.

Curve-adaptive systems don't always lead to better ratings. The Cadillac ATS, Kia Optima and Mercedes-Benz C-Class all earn poor ratings even when equipped with adaptive low and high beams.
Link :http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/deskto...ed-improvement

This is Los Angeles Times's take on the matter, almost mirroring the IIHS views :

Quote:
It gets more complicated. Consumers can't buy a more expensive model or add an expensive technology package and necessarily expect to get better headlights, the report said. The halogen headlights in the economically priced base model four-door Honda Accord, for example, earned an acceptable rating while halogen and LED headlights in two pricier Mercedes-Benz models were rated poor.

Zuby said with no reliable clues such as the price of the car or the type of light, it's hard for consumers to figure out which vehicles will provide the safest visibility. He recommended car buyers check the institute's ratings at www.iihs.org.
Link : http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...330-story.html

Ok, both the above links may be merely testing opinions, here's a statement from owners from a Mercedes GLE Forum :

Quote:
I have owned 3 ML's prior to getting our new GLE two weeks ago. Every ML had the lighting package built in to equipment options by the dealer. That is how they ordered the vehicles. The new GLE has a stand alone option of LED lights, a $1,300 option. Very few vehicles have been ordered by the dealerships with this option. I just assumed ( not a good idea) that MB would be using Xenons as a standard. NOT TRUE. They chose to equip their GLE's with a very inferior headlight
Link : http://www.mercedesgleforum.com/foru...eadlights.html

This really shows that its a gamble when it comes to lights, not every light is made equally even though the method of discharge may be the same. I can share many more links which I discovered and most blame either Mercedes or BMW for poor lighting up front. It is still very much in the process of development and these issues are rarely discussed even amongst owners but these issues are very much there be it Europe, America or India, infact Indians may complain less due to the lower average speeds in the nation.. abroad where the speeds exceed 150 mph in good highways and where 130 feet is covered in less than 2 seconds (130 feet is the approx distance of illumination by MB).

Also the tests rightly so, determine the normal/low beam potency above anything else, since high-beams affect oncoming traffic :

Quote:
n order to test the quality of the lights, the IIHS took each car on a track after dark at its vehicle research center and tried to best replicate driving conditions that someone might experience at that time. As such, the headlights aren't adjusted since few vehicle owners do and several manufacturers advise not to. Through the use of a special device, the group measured the light from both low beams and high beams as it was driven on five different approaches: traveling straight, a sharp left curve, a sharp right curve, a gradual left curve and a gradual right curve.

It was noted that low beams were given extra special attention in each scenario since glare from oncoming vehicles is also a factor and any found with an excessive amount can't earn a rating above "marginal."

After the field test was complete, IIHS engineers weighed a headlight's visibility and glare measurements against those of a hypothetical ideal headlight system and used a scheme of demerits to determine the rating. Results for low beams were weighted more heavily than high beams because they are used more often. The readings on the straightaway were weighted more heavily than those on the curves because more crashes occur on straight sections of road.
Link :http://www.hngn.com/articles/193622/...ivers-dark.htm

All due respect to MB, but its quite apparent that they've not stepped up their game when it comes to practical headlight solutions, if not gone back a little from their previous setup. We're surely not here to blame the manufacturers, just that the truth about every aspect of driving should be known.
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Old 6th July 2017, 19:11   #30
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Default Re: Car makers ditching the lower bumper front foglamps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
Of course, I'm all too aware of the different types of illumination systems in cars starting with HID's, neons, LED's, curve LED's and the latest - OLED's and lasers. I guess I didn't back up my previous post with what I'd read earlier so here goes.


Link :http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/deskto...ed-improvement

Link : http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...330-story.html


This really shows that its a gamble when it comes to lights, not every light is made equally even though the method of discharge may be the same. I can share many more links which I discovered and most blame either Mercedes or BMW for poor lighting up front. It is still very much in the process of development and these issues are rarely discussed even amongst owners but these issues are very much there be it Europe, America or India, infact Indians may complain less due to the lower average speeds in the nation.. abroad where the speeds exceed 150 mph in good highways and where 130 feet is covered in less than 2 seconds (130 feet is the approx distance of illumination by MB).

Also the tests rightly so, determine the normal/low beam potency above anything else, since high-beams affect oncoming traffic :



Link :http://www.hngn.com/articles/193622/...ivers-dark.htm

All due respect to MB, but its quite apparent that they've not stepped up their game when it comes to practical headlight solutions, if not gone back a little from their previous setup. We're surely not here to blame the manufacturers, just that the truth about every aspect of driving should be known.
I appreciate your time taken research upon so much material. Based on these links, I flew across them and what I can see is two things, one is that the high beam performance is poor and second is that these articles are based on the US market.

On the first point, I definitely wont disagree. High beam penetration in case of these newer clusters is not as good as a Halogen. That follows just what I told in the earlier post. Good high beam penetration can be achieved by a strong source which can give a tremendous amount of light from one single point. This is exactly what a filament bulb does. Hence, at one stage we have had HID low beams and Halogen high beams in cars, or even now in some cars.

Coming to the second point, I am not sure about this. In Europe, I have rarely seen people opting for the standard halogen lamps when they have advanced options with them. Leave that aside, I myself drive these cars regularly in all types of roads in the Europe starting from country roads in Austria to some high speed test tracks which are closed to public. My most recent drive was in a GLE350 at around 9PM at night, where I could cover a distance of 90kms in less than 30 minutes with the LED lights. However, I did not use the high beam since the use of high beam is not allowed in regular conditions. More than the need of seeing far ahead, its the confidence factor that doesnt make drivers complain about poor performance of high beams. We use high beams only to flash and in adverse weather. Maybe in the USA that confidence factor is not there due to poorer road safety. For example, on the Autobahn, the Germans would never expect a dog to cross the road, nor a pedestrian. Thats how my initial days of driving in Germany was spent, doing a lot of anticipation.

Apart from the GLE, I have driven the E, S and some Audis and Volvos with varied lighting technologies. I did not find them inadequate. Even in the test tracks where we usually take the vehicle to 270kmph or even more at night, you will still find the drivers calm and composed.

On a personal note, I would always prefer an LED low beam and a halogen high beam. I wouldnt bother about the fog lamps. Currently my car has a set of good LED fog lights which I totally love(gives the feeling of driving a premium car ) and they do a good job of supplementing the low beam and lighting up the close spaces when in high beam.
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