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Old 4th December 2012, 17:37   #1
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Default 255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)

Hi Bhpians,

had to make this thread to forwarn all future Scorpio buyers of my expierience. Booked and got my scorpio Sle in Sep 12.
Upgraded to plati rims (wide) with maxxis AT Bravo, upsize 255 from the OEM Appollo 235's.

Its been the third month, thru which period vehicle has not run much 2500 kms. When i took the scorpio for its first highway run, a couple of weeks back started noticing this Tak tak tak noise while braking. Took it to M A S S , first thing they said since the alloys were an aftermarket fitment the warranty is void (Understandably) , they did however help. They replaced the rear tyres with OEM and the sound vanished.

So today I took the car back to BK tyres lajpat, and the owner heard me out before asking for some of my time to trouble shoot.
He went wider 295, took the car for a spin and No noise. Next we took the maxxis 255 off the rims and put in OEM apollo 235's on the plati rims, the noise appeared again,..so it wasn't the maxxis causing the trouble but the rims.

The owner assured me that he has sold this rims to other scorpio owners where they never had this issue. On removing the tyres and closer inspection it was clear that the rear wheels were rubbing against some component as there were cracks on the rear tyres.

Closer observation revealed a startling discovery,......!

We had a 2011 scorpio and mine which was a 2012 scorpio (attaching images) next to each other. The 2011 models have the coil springs mounted closer to the differential,..the 2012 models have the coil springs mounted protruding into the wheel well. Also the diameter of the springs seems a lot different, the older ones have a larger diameter the ones in my scorpio in comparison are so much smaller but further apart.

So everytime I would brake and the vehicle took a slight dive the tyre would make contact with the coil and the resultant noise and tyre damage would ocuur.

So in the end I went back to the 235 size tyre and much narrower rims.
Sad cos I loved the original rim and tyre combo a lot.

The images in sequence are.

1. Image with the red painted barke drum is a 2011 scorpio (not mine), notice the coil springs inside, closer to the differential and the difference is size of the coils.
2. Image two where that green leaf is stuck to the coil is of my 2012 scorpio (notice the spirngs are far out towards the wheel well). It is this part which was making contact with the tryres causing the noise and the damage to the tyres. The car in the image is on a jack with new tyre mounted thus you cannot see how close it could have been with the old tyre setup.
3. Image three is the new rims (narrower with OEM tyres) could'nt afford more since I had splurged more on the wrong set first time around.
4. Image four and five are on DAY - 01 of bringing the scorpio home in its beefy avatar. :(

The take of the owner of BK tyres was that there was no way to know if mahindra had changed spec.
Off course due diligence should have shown this if they had inspected thge car after fitment, and not just let buyer beware.

Either way, I was not there looking to blame or for free uprages,..so he did buy back the old tyres and rims in exchange for the ones shod presently. Am a sadder and wiser man though...!

Wish Mahindra gave better alloy options in the first place......! Also surpriseing that R&D continues in Mahindra 10 years after launching a product,..and almost 5 (approx) after the new suspension system replaced the old leafs.
Attached Thumbnails
255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)-img2012120400233.jpg  

255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)-img2012120400234.jpg  

255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)-img2012120400232.jpg  

Attached Images
  

Last edited by Torque-ative : 4th December 2012 at 17:48. Reason: typos
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Old 4th December 2012, 19:39   #2
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Default re: 255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)

Hi,

Can you please post some more pics of the coil spring and the tyre clearance. In any case, I guess a 295 section tyre for a scorpio is an overkill.

- Dhanush
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Old 4th December 2012, 22:32   #3
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Default re: 255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)

What do you need oversize tyres for in a scorpio that drives on the road ? It disturbs gear ratio, is suspect to rub against fenders on turning. articulation gets altered, for a SUV that usually drives on Tarmac why AT tyres sure the ride will be not very smooth the tyre is designed for a different application.

If you use alloy rims it is fine. But stick to 235/70 R 16 tyres.
The best fitments for Scorpio are Bridgestone HT Dueler 689 and AT 693 II, followed by MRF Wandrer. Apollo Amazer and Yokohama Geolander AT.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:29   #4
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Default re: 255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)

Oh my you have those lovely Plati alloys I had been scouting for almost a year and then you had to get rid of them ?

Anyways I am running 255/65/R16 Geolanders on my scorpio and it's a 2009 refresh model. I have no issues what so ever. Now unlikely that M&M have changed anything in the refresh models apart from coming out with the 4x4 trim of the refresh models. I could be wrong though, but then unlikely that M&M could have done such a design change.

I am sure there is more than what meets the eye.So here is the million dollar question what was the width of the alloys, the Platis I mean ?

Here's a pic and I am running 8J alloys and IIRC those Plati alloys were also 8J.

255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)-546789_10151084050030588_1338209153_n.jpg

Last edited by rjstyles69 : 5th December 2012 at 11:33.
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Old 5th December 2012, 13:28   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
Hi,

Can you please post some more pics of the coil spring and the tyre clearance. In any case, I guess a 295 section tyre for a scorpio is an overkill.

- Dhanush
Hi Dhanush
Thanks for your post in my thread. WOuld suggest you read my post again. The 295's were mounted only to test if the wider tyres were cauisng the following,..but was NOT the case.

These are all the images I have for now buddy. The fact of the matter is the current model scorpio coil sorings are placed further apart almost at the same placing of the Bump stop bush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
What do you need oversize tyres for in a scorpio that drives on the road ? It disturbs gear ratio, is suspect to rub against fenders on turning. articulation gets altered, for a SUV that usually drives on Tarmac why AT tyres sure the ride will be not very smooth the tyre is designed for a different application.

If you use alloy rims it is fine. But stick to 235/70 R 16 tyres.
The best fitments for Scorpio are Bridgestone HT Dueler 689 and AT 693 II, followed by MRF Wandrer. Apollo Amazer and Yokohama Geolander AT.
Shahid Bhai aka desertfox,...! Paaji aap post dobara padhiye.

-I only upsized from OEM 235 ATs to Maxxis 255 ATs. There was NO fowling with the fenders.
-It was the plati rims which were causing the fowling of tyres due to the change on coil spring diameter and the different placement in the current model scorpio. The fowling was with the coil spring cups itself, which would occur when there was braking and the vehicle would dive down making tyre and coil spring contact,..causing the tak tak tak noise and resultant tyre damage.


Thanks however for the reccomendations of best tyre upgrade for the benifit of other Scorpio owners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjstyles69 View Post
Oh my you have those lovely Plati alloys I had been scouting for almost a year and then you had to get rid of them ?

Anyways I am running 255/65/R16 Geolanders on my scorpio and it's a 2009 refresh model. I have no issues what so ever. Now unlikely that M&M have changed anything in the refresh models apart from coming out with the 4x4 trim of the refresh models. I could be wrong though, but then unlikely that M&M could have done such a design change.

I am sure there is more than what meets the eye.So here is the million dollar question what was the width of the alloys, the Platis I mean ?

Here's a pic and I am running 8J alloys and IIRC those Plati alloys were also 8J.

Attachment 1022543
8JJ I think too.

Buddy,..what do you think of the first two images,..the red painted brake drum, and mine, where the differences I mentioned (Coil diameter, and placement) are quite clearly visible.

In fact in my model I see that the coil springs are placed almost along side the bump stop bush. It is the upper cup where the coils are nestled which was cutting into the tyre.

In the older model the bump stop bush is clearly outside of the coil springs. Again I would like to point out that the RED painted braked drum is of an older model.

I have circles the parts to pay attention to. Excuse the un-steady hand.

Note from Support - Please use multi-quote feature instead of submitting back-to-back posts. Thanks!
Attached Thumbnails
255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)-img2012120400234.jpg  

255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)-img2012120400233.jpg  


Last edited by n_aditya : 5th December 2012 at 15:36. Reason: posts merged
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Old 5th December 2012, 14:31   #6
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Default Re: 255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torque-ative View Post
We had a 2011 scorpio and mine which was a 2012 scorpio (attaching images) next to each other. The 2011 models have the coil springs mounted closer to the differential,..the 2012 models have the coil springs mounted protruding into the wheel well.
This is what forum member "BMW-X5" has to say about the his Oct 2012 Scorpio, on my vehicle's ownership thread [I do not know where he got this info from]:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ml#post2973643

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ml#post2973674

If true, then maybe that is exactly what your pics depict.

Cheers,
Vikram

Last edited by comfortablynumb : 5th December 2012 at 14:34.
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Old 5th December 2012, 14:59   #7
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Default Re: 255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)

Quote:
Originally Posted by comfortablynumb View Post
This is what forum member "BMW-X5" has to say about the his Oct 2012 Scorpio, on my vehicle's ownership thread [I do not know where he got this info from]:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ml#post2973643

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ml#post2973674

If true, then maybe that is exactly what your pics depict.

Cheers,
Vikram
Bingo...!! Vikram,..you hit the nail on its head. Wider spring setting would aid in stability and lesser body roll.

THUS IT IS OFFICIAL,..mahindra has changed coil set-up as clearly seen in my images. ALL NEW SCORPIO BUYERS NEED PAY ATTENTION.

The new models cannot take wider rims as the older models did.

MODS PLEASE change the thread label to "Caution while upgrading rims in new scorpios 2012, due to changes in suspension set-up (Pictures inside)"

Last edited by Torque-ative : 5th December 2012 at 15:02.
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Old 5th December 2012, 17:34   #8
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Default Re: 255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)

A parting shot of the present and the erstwhile set-up...!

Also a consolation for me is that the new setup with Alloys and OEM tyres are not that bad...definitly not as classy as the Plati and Maxxis combo,..but liveable never the less.

Note to others looking to upgrade,..the steering feels a lot lighter and nimble with OEM set-up,..also during highspeeds bumps filter thru less. With the maxxis every jar and shudder was felt,...very bad for the spirited driver.
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255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)-img2012120400239.jpg  

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Old 5th December 2012, 17:54   #9
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Default Re: 255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)

How much was the interference between the rim and the suspension? Couldn't it have been solved by using a spacer plate if the interference was not too much?
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Old 6th December 2012, 14:15   #10
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Default Re: 255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)

I am also using the same alloys on my Scorpio. These are Plati PY111 having offset of 0 mm and width of 8J. My Scorpio is 2011 model so did not interfere with the springs. However i had some issues with the front tryes rubbing against mud guards while turing the steering on extreme ends. I resolved the same by manually cutting the plastic flaps on few places. It is all good now.

I think it is not the width but the 0 offset that brings this closure to other metal parts. OEM rims/alloys are +55 mm and this is 0 offset. This implies a difference of 55 mm which is 2.2 inches. Therefore even with same width your tyres will be placed 2.2 inches outwards (away from centre). Increase in width (say 8J) would increase the distance by 0.75 inches which implies it would prolude 3 inches more than OEM tyres.
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Old 19th January 2013, 13:53   #11
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Default Oh My horror...!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjstyles69 View Post
I am sure there is more than what meets the eye.
Attachment 1022543
Hi bhpians,..sorry for the delayed update.

About 1 week after I got my tires changed to OEM spec 235 mms.
The dreaded tak tak tak sound,..upon braking returned.

My heart literally sank,...here I was just finished trading in my brand new set of 04 rims that I loved, and set of 04 brand new Maxxis AT's at a trade-in loss of Rs.15000/- and still left with the same problem.

Took the car back to Mahindra A.S.S,..they did the same thing again put on OEM alloys,..and the sound again vanishes. They again pin the blame on the alloys. I was shattered,..not knowing if my car was a lemon cos the owner of BK tyres lajpat Nagar, was all the way indicating this was a one off thing only with my scorpio.

In the most crestfallen manner possible I was waiting to take delivery of my car back from mahindra a.s.s to take back to BK tyres to Down grade further to the original stock steel rims to see if that fixes the braking noise. I had so far lost a lot of money and had no more appetite for any further frills and fancies.

As I just going to sit in my car and drive off a guy who looked like he had a position of some responsibility saw me,.. all pissed and asked me what happened. I gave him the whole sob story..! He asked for 05 min and returned with a slight smile on his face. He was like sir lets go for another test drive. There was no noise at all,..i stopped to check which rims were on they were mine.

I was like,..pray tell me kind sir what kind of wizardry is this. How did you fix it,..and more importantly what was it.
He pulled out two lug nuts from his pocket and showed me.

The BK tyres guy from Lajpat had put in stock nuts,..all the Floor shop manager did was replce this with Alloys nuts and the problem went away.
I immediately called BK tyres and asked him if this was a mistake.
He (the owner) says no sir we always put stock nuts and never had a problem,..! I was like are you sure he says "sir, your scorpio seems to be a specially made one" and sends me images of other alloy installs with stock nuts claiming there is no difference between the two.
However the difference in the two nuts were very clear. the nut on the left is stock nuts (steel rims) and the one on the right is alloy nuts (for alloy wheels).

I kept quite as I did not want to shoot off my mouth as there were too many false elation's. So i just bit my pride and left it at that. Changed all 20 nuts (all four wheels), and drove away.

I have hence driven over 2500 kms and the noise has not re-occurred.

My question to alloy gurus are.
1. Why did BK tyres, Lajpat Nagar fit normal nuts.
2. Why did he make no attempt to cover for his fault and claim that he continues to fit in stock nuts in all his alloy installs without a problem.

I for one am chuffed. Mad, yet relieved. Some strange story this huh !?
Attached Thumbnails
255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)-img2012121200310.jpg  


Last edited by Torque-ative : 19th January 2013 at 14:02.
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Old 19th January 2013, 14:01   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torque-ative View Post

My question to alloy gurus are.
1. Why did BK fit normal nuts.
2. Why did he make no attempt to cover for his fault and claim that he continues to fit in stock nuts in all his alloy installs without a problem.

I for one am chuffed. Mad, yet relieved. Some strange story this huh !?
Very dangerous thing to have the incorrect lug nuts when fitting alloy wheels. Please read Mr Behram Dhabhar's detailed posts on the subject of Alloy wheels for the Scorpio.
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Old 19th January 2013, 14:08   #13
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Default Re: 255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)

Note to MODS since the turn of events has been from discomfort to downright dangerous.

The Subject should ideally read "Wrong lug nuts the main reason for the faulty Scorpio alloys install".

Note to ALL Bhpians Please read POST#11 for the real reason. This is scary.....!
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Old 19th January 2013, 14:16   #14
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Default Re: 255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)

Interesting story but I am just not in favour of unnecessarily accessorizing or operating on a newborn. She should be accepted as she came and enjoyed. Perhaps, buy a variant which has all what you need. Give it a treatment of 'market stuff' only when she falls sick and really needs it!

But to each his own, I guess!
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Old 19th January 2013, 14:22   #15
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Default Re: 255mm tyres on a Scorpio? Think again (Pictures inside)

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Originally Posted by anujatwork View Post
Interesting story but I am just not in favour of unnecessarily accessorizing or operating on a newborn. She should be accepted as she came and enjoyed. Perhaps, buy a variant which has all what you need. Give it a treatment of 'market stuff' only when she falls sick and really needs it!

But to each his own, I guess!
@anuj,..these are just alloys and tyres man. No tinkering with anything major.
Even the upsizing was done within parameters. Nothing overtly extraordinary in these you will agree.

This was a installation screwup the only reason I post this is for the benifit of new owners to beware of pitfalls in unknowingly stepping into a mine hole.

Last edited by Torque-ative : 19th January 2013 at 14:23.
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