[headers]

Originally Posted by Frankenstein

I guess its time people realize the over rated XD3P is just an average engine .

Sandeeo - What choices do people have apart from the over rated XD3P? Which is a direct fit onto a stock MM540 ?

Also, please factor power to weight and torque to weight ratios and you will agree that there are not many engine options available!!

[jeepster]

Originally Posted by jyobeb

Seems very different from the sd25! The intake is different, the exhaust is different, the thermostat housing, water pump are different, heck, even the diesel injection pump is rotary compared to the inline SD25!
I don't know about the SD25, but this engine is very heavy and nowhere as light as the XD3P!

so its DI3150.

can you share the power & torque details of the DI3150.

which vehicles other than mm cabking use this engine?

rgds
Nikhil

[Frankenstein]

Originally Posted by headers

Sandeeo - What choices do people have apart from the over rated XD3P? Which is a direct fit onto a stock MM540 ?

Also, please factor power to weight and torque to weight ratios and you will agree that there are not many engine options available!!

Nice question . Direct fit true i agree , specially for the KMT 90 and the engine mounts .

But how many parts we are using in our offroad vehicles are a direct fit ?

People change steering systems, put over sized heavy tires and lots more , so why this mental block about changing engine mounts and Gear boxes . Dont tell me Mercedes Benz Engineers should come down from stuggart to do the precision work.

There are a lot of better engines which you already know off.

Power and weight, there is a lot of difference on paper power and on road power. Where did this information come ?

15.5 kgm of torque and 75 bhp , i seriously doubt , no dyno graph to prove it .

Weight of the engine , did the manufacturer specify it or is it from google search ? I remember the manufacturer of a certain CRDE engine wasnt sure of the engine weight too.

None of the guys in INDIA alteast weigh an engine before swapping.

Headers i will do a drag this weekend with one of the best rebuilt XD3P 550s , compare it to a few other engines which have less or same power of the xd3p on paper and you can see the diff.

I have driven jeeps with as many engine combos as possible on road and off it and that 20 to 50 kgs extra engine weight makes no difference .

[headers]

Originally Posted by Frankenstein

None of the guys in INDIA alteast weigh an engine before swapping.

Sandeep..Not true..I have weighed my gypsy before and after each modification carried out!! Its just that I have not put it on this forum!!

And you are going to be surprised at the outcome of my MM540 the next time you are here!!

Originally Posted by Frankenstein

Headers i will do a drag this weekend with one of the best rebuilt XD3P 550s , compare it to a few other engines which have less or same power of the xd3p on paper and you can see the diff.

I have driven jeeps with as many engine combos as possible on road and off it and that 20 to 50 kgs extra engine weight makes no difference .

How do you say that the XD3P engined 550 you are going to drag with, is one of the best?

Secondly, no 2 drivers are identical..even with the best re-built XD3P, having a dump [read not so good] driver drive it will cause times to differ.

Lastly, I believe even 20kgs extra weight will make a difference both ONroad and OFFroad and ONtrack and OFF track..OK!!


Ofcourse, I dont have access to the numbers of jeeps and engines combos like you do, but I Drive each vehicle differently

[Frankenstein]

Originally Posted by headers

Sandeep..Not true..I have weighed my gypsy before and after each modification carried out!! Its just that I have not put it on this forum!!

And you are going to be surprised at the outcome of my MM540 the next time you are here!!



How do you say that the XD3P engined 550 you are going to drag with, is one of the best?

Secondly, no 2 drivers are identical..even with the best re-built XD3P, having a dump [read not so good] driver drive it will cause times to differ.

Lastly, I believe even 20kgs extra weight will make a difference both ONroad and OFFroad and ONtrack and OFF track..OK!!


Ofcourse, I dont have access to the numbers of jeeps and engines combos like you do, but I Drive each vehicle differently

Dear Heady

Good that you weighed the engine. I dont know gypsy technology .

But in Jeeps people are transplanting engines from donkeys years and i have not come across anyone doing that.

Best of luck for your 540. I am sure you will be discouraged badly for doing anything weird.



The 550 which i am going to drive is the best atleast here in my circle . Very silent, powerful and runs better than the other lorries and is rebuilt in Bharath motors.

Times may differ with a bad driver . But not by 2 cars length.

Headers me and you should stop worrying about that poor engine weight , rather go workout and lose weight our selves, now thats going to make a difference.

Headers your experience is different and i respect that . I dont drive each offroader differently , only one style , the JEEP style.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by Frankenstein

Blue 550 with turbo is owned by Nawab Salik Khan of our team. It has a bolero turbo , low end is not changed from the stock engine but topend power is very good. I guess its time people realize the over rated XD3P is just an average engine .

Originally Posted by Frankenstein

Nice question . Direct fit true i agree , specially for the KMT 90 and the engine mounts .

But how many parts we are using in our offroad vehicles are a direct fit ?

People change steering systems, put over sized heavy tires and lots more , so why this mental block about changing engine mounts and Gear boxes . Dont tell me Mercedes Benz Engineers should come down from stuggart to do the precision work.

There are a lot of better engines which you already know off.

Power and weight, there is a lot of difference on paper power and on road power. Where did this information come ?

15.5 kgm of torque and 75 bhp , i seriously doubt , no dyno graph to prove it .

Weight of the engine , did the manufacturer specify it or is it from google search ? I remember the manufacturer of a certain CRDE engine wasnt sure of the engine weight too.

None of the guys in INDIA alteast weigh an engine before swapping.

Headers i will do a drag this weekend with one of the best rebuilt XD3P 550s , compare it to a few other engines which have less or same power of the xd3p on paper and you can see the diff.

I have driven jeeps with as many engine combos as possible on road and off it and that 20 to 50 kgs extra engine weight makes no difference .

Hi Sandeep,

How many JEEPs or Mahindra engines, gear boxes or differentials, Steering Systems have you rebuilt or refurbished or upgraded?

Seeing engines and gearboxes fitted on someone's vehicle and taking it for a drag on the strip, hardly corroborates to off-road performance.

Lets look a some 2.5L engine available in INDIA.

1) OM616/616T 13-19Kgm weight approx 210 - 250Kgs
2) MDI3200/3200TC - 16-19Kgm weighs approx 260 - 270Kgs
3) SD25 - 16Kgm weighs 250-260Kgs
4) XD3P - 15Kgm weight 195Kgs

So why should some one go in for a heavier engine when the torque and power is not improving?

Also fitting a "better" and heavier engine may not relate to "real off-road" performance

Please explain, what advantage will a SD25 or OM616 have over an XD3P, which will justify the cost of making a adapter plate thereby further reducing reliability, and adding 50-80Kgs to the weight of the vehicle.

Regards,

Arka

PS - Do you have any open source information to support you claims about any other 2.5L engine?

[Frankenstein]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi Sandeep,

How many JEEPs or Mahindra engines, gear boxes or differentials, Steering Systems have you rebuilt or refurbished or upgraded?

Seeing engines and gearboxes fitted on someone's vehicle and taking it for a drag on the strip, hardly corroborates to off-road performance.

Lets look a some 2.5L engine available in INDIA.

1) OM616/616T 13-19Kgm weight approx 210 - 250Kgs
2) MDI3200/3200TC - 16-19Kgm weighs approx 260 - 270Kgs
3) SD25 - 16Kgm weighs 250-260Kgs
4) XD3P - 15Kgm weight 195Kgs

So why should some one go in for a heavier engine when the torque and power is not improving?

Also fitting a "better" and heavier engine may not relate to "real off-road" performance

Please explain, what advantage will a SD25 or OM616 have over an XD3P, which will justify the cost of making a adapter plate thereby further reducing reliability, and adding 50-80Kgs to the weight of the vehicle.

Regards,

Arka

PS - Do you have any open source information to support you claims about any other 2.5L engine?

HI Arka . I was in Chennai from the past 2 days and sorry i was entangled in some work i could not call you bro.

HOW many Jeeps , i have rebuilt 2 JEEPS of my own and in the process of rebuilding another 2 of my own .I have rebuilt 3 Jeeps for my friends , 2 CJ3Bs and a CJ3A.

I have used 4 gear boxes till date. The kmt 90 , the 3 speed, the kia 4speed and a Isuzu 5 speed gear box.

I have not upgraded the steering system since i feel with standard JEEP tyres the stock steering system holds good.


I have not only seen or driven on a drag strip , but driven offroad with these JEEPS too , which includes the thar. A proper recce .

OM616 is lighter to the xd3p, have you weighed the 307.
have you driven a JEEP with the sd25? I have and gone offroad with it .

There is a lot of difference on road with these so called better engines like much lower NVH, much better initial pick up and highway cruising , offorad low end torque.

More power surely helps a lot in offroad performance, i am sure a lot of people can vouch for that. So why not go in for the inter b275 over the xd3p? Powerful engines do help in real offroad situations. Why is the thar able to match the Legendary jeeps offroad performance ?

What is this reliability that has gone wrong with an adapter plate? How much does it cost to make an adapter plate? OM616 or a 617 rev much more than the XD3P ( not on paper) have a better initial pick up and top end and are much more reliable than the XD3P which does not need an excuse to heat up. OM 616 is more rugged, even after heating up to 120 degrees after a broken fan many times it still runs like a dream, where as the XD3P will blow what not .

SD25 , drive one and trust me you will like it and the xd3p is no match for the sd25.

[headers]

Originally Posted by Frankenstein

HOW many Jeeps , i have rebuilt 2 JEEPS of my own and in the process of rebuilding another 2 of my own .I have rebuilt 3 Jeeps for my friends , 2 CJ3Bs and a CJ3A.

I have used 4 gear boxes till date. The kmt 90 , the 3 speed, the kia 4speed and a Isuzu 5 speed gear box.

I have not upgraded the steering system since i feel with standard JEEP tyres the stock steering system holds good.

Can you share pictures of your jeeps with the engine bay pictures as well?

Originally Posted by Frankenstein

Why is the thar able to match the Legendary jeeps offroad performance ?

Come on Sandeep - Lets not drag the THAR here - Its an old design being sold at a price without safety and creature comforts in modern era!! No lockable cabin, no AC, no AT tyres, No MID, No..well sorry the list is endless.

Originally Posted by Frankenstein

SD25 , drive one and trust me you will like it and the xd3p is no match for the sd25.

Am waiting for you to gift me one

BTW, the SD25 is again a truck engine - right? Why not look at bigger and better truck engines? It might help the jeeps perform better.

Have you considered the Mitsubishi 4D31

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by Frankenstein

OM616 is lighter to the xd3p, have you weighed the 307.
have you driven a JEEP with the sd25? I have and gone offroad with it .

There is a lot of difference on road with these so called better engines like much lower NVH, much better initial pick up and highway cruising , offorad low end torque.

More power surely helps a lot in offroad performance, i am sure a lot of people can vouch for that. So why not go in for the inter b275 over the xd3p? Powerful engines do help in real offroad situations. Why is the thar able to match the Legendary jeeps offroad performance ?

What is this reliability that has gone wrong with an adapter plate? How much does it cost to make an adapter plate? OM616 or a 617 rev much more than the XD3P ( not on paper) have a better initial pick up and top end and are much more reliable than the XD3P which does not need an excuse to heat up. OM 616 is more rugged, even after heating up to 120 degrees after a broken fan many times it still runs like a dream, where as the XD3P will blow what not .

SD25 , drive one and trust me you will like it and the xd3p is no match for the sd25.

Hi Sandeep,

Are you sure that the OM616 is lighter than the XD3P?

I have driven a OM616 with 3 Speed and it sucks off-road especially in TPC conditions, and I have seen OM616 with blown head gasket and rapidly overheating in the above condition.

The OM616 is a good engine and is much better when used with its OEM Gearbox combination.

The OM616, SD25 and XD3P are similar in displacement, and in INDIA, the XD3P has evolved to very good specs, have you driven the 2004-2006 with the Delphi FIP, the rev-ability and acceleration is much much better than a OM616, and light years ahead of the SD25.

wrt to SD25, I don't want to add unnecessary weight and complicate things for no tangible gains, the last time I saw a SD25, it was in a Mix n Match Land-Rover and I had to tow it out with my CJ3B.

So now how much more powerful is the OM616 or the SD25 compared to the XD3P?

OM616 generates 13-15Kgm @ 2200-2400rpm depending on the trim for a weight of 210Kgs(at least) usually quoted 550-600lbs

SD25 generates 15-16Kgm @ 1600-2000rpm for 250+ Kgs

XD3P generate 15-16Kgm @ 1800-2000Rpm for 194Kgs.

The Adapter plate can add to the weight, and will not be 100% true since each plate is a custom job, unlike series production.

This will induce a lot of problems in the Fly Wheel, Clutch/Cover Assy, Top Gear Shaft, Bearings, and other parts inside the gearbox.

So please explain maybe in points what advantage each engine will have over the XD3P and KMT90 in a M&M JEEP.

wrt B275 vs XD3P ;B275 weighs 250+Kgs where as the XD3P weighs 194Kgs.

Regards,

Arka

[Frankenstein]

Originally Posted by headers

Can you share pictures of your jeeps with the engine bay pictures as well?



Come on Sandeep - Lets not drag the THAR here - Its an old design being sold at a price without safety and creature comforts in modern era!! No lockable cabin, no AC, no AT tyres, No MID, No..well sorry the list is endless.



Am waiting for you to gift me one

BTW, the SD25 is again a truck engine - right? Why not look at bigger and better truck engines? It might help the jeeps perform better.

Have you considered the Mitsubishi 4D31

Heady, i have posted pics on this forum earlier, please use the search function.

Old design is what everybody wanted when BD opened that thread "what do you want in a 550" right. Thar also has no climate control system, ESP, low profile tires , heating seats, the list goes on.

What is a Truck engine ?, aint the Di engine used in trucks and tractors. Please open the hood of a low bonnet jeep and look , then tell me what engines can you plonk in there. Space saar. I have considered a engine , not a truck one tough , but something more disgusting and shaky.

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi Sandeep,

Are you sure that the OM616 is lighter than the XD3P?

I have driven a OM616 with 3 Speed and it sucks off-road especially in TPC conditions, and I have seen OM616 with blown head gasket and rapidly overheating in the above condition.

The OM616 is a good engine and is much better when used with its OEM Gearbox combination.

The OM616, SD25 and XD3P are similar in displacement, and in INDIA, the XD3P has evolved to very good specs, have you driven the 2004-2006 with the Delphi FIP, the rev-ability and acceleration is much much better than a OM616, and light years ahead of the SD25.

wrt to SD25, I don't want to add unnecessary weight and complicate things for no tangible gains, the last time I saw a SD25, it was in a Mix n Match Land-Rover and I had to tow it out with my CJ3B.

So now how much more powerful is the OM616 or the SD25 compared to the XD3P?

OM616 generates 13-15Kgm @ 2200-2400rpm depending on the trim for a weight of 210Kgs(at least) usually quoted 550-600lbs

SD25 generates 15-16Kgm @ 1600-2000rpm for 250+ Kgs

XD3P generate 15-16Kgm @ 1800-2000Rpm for 194Kgs.

The Adapter plate can add to the weight, and will not be 100% true since each plate is a custom job, unlike series production.

This will induce a lot of problems in the Fly Wheel, Clutch/Cover Assy, Top Gear Shaft, Bearings, and other parts inside the gearbox.

So please explain maybe in points what advantage each engine will have over the XD3P and KMT90 in a M&M JEEP.

wrt B275 vs XD3P ;B275 weighs 250+Kgs where as the XD3P weighs 194Kgs.

Regards,

Arka

Hi Arka. Om616 is lighter around 10 kgs than the XD3p. What you quoted is also right but that must be with the heaver tempo traveller flywheel.

You have only seen one om616 JEEP, its not fair , a rebuilt 307 with a kiki pump in a jeep is jsut awesome, it is as fast as the Isuzu G1.

If you see the "return of the willys jeeps thread" the grey cj3b and my cj3a both have the om616 engines. Mine is in the last stages , the 3b s engine is just rebuilt and very powerful, both the jeeps are with a 3 speed and 8/43 at the rear. These engines are meant to be abused , last more than 2L kms easily . I will be taking some videos this week end .

Akra , We have bought a 2004 mm550 and a 2006 is also coming . The problem is XD3P is too sluggish. Highway its a pain . The 2004 i feel sucks even more, since i feel the chassis and axles are even more heavier. The only difference felt was better handling.

Even with 9/44 and kmt 90 it sucks big time, same combo with a isuzu g1 or sd25 or kiki 307 , xd3p wont be seen . 307 s with kiki or bosch pump rev more than a mico pump engine. Same goes with the initial pick up.

We dont use adapter plate for the 307. People have been using nonstandard engines from the past 25 years here and there are no issues specified by you. I have no patience to document them and post it here. Rebuild quality too matters. I towed a scopio in mY 3B, so how does it make the engine in that car suck.
I have told earlier , xd3p cant catch the 307 itself, next comes the G1 and then the sd25. How fast it revs also matters.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by Frankenstein

Hi Arka. Om616 is lighter around 10 kgs than the XD3p. What you quoted is also right but that must be with the heaver tempo traveller flywheel.

You have only seen one om616 JEEP, its not fair , a rebuilt 307 with a kiki pump in a jeep is jsut awesome, it is as fast as the Isuzu G1.

If you see the "return of the willys jeeps thread" the grey cj3b and my cj3a both have the om616 engines. Mine is in the last stages , the 3b s engine is just rebuilt and very powerful, both the jeeps are with a 3 speed and 8/43 at the rear. These engines are meant to be abused , last more than 2L kms easily . I will be taking some videos this week end .

Akra , We have bought a 2004 mm550 and a 2006 is also coming . The problem is XD3P is too sluggish. Highway its a pain . The 2004 i feel sucks even more, since i feel the chassis and axles are even more heavier. The only difference felt was better handling.

Even with 9/44 and kmt 90 it sucks big time, same combo with a isuzu g1 or sd25 or kiki 307 , xd3p wont be seen . 307 s with kiki or bosch pump rev more than a mico pump engine. Same goes with the initial pick up.

We dont use adapter plate for the 307. People have been using nonstandard engines from the past 25 years here and there are no issues specified by you. I have no patience to document them and post it here. Rebuild quality too matters. I towed a scopio in mY 3B, so how does it make the engine in that car suck.
I have told earlier , xd3p cant catch the 307 itself, next comes the G1 and then the sd25. How fast it revs also matters.

Hi Sandeep,

Please specify the advantages of each engine over the XD3P.

Anytime we talk off-road performance all you end up describing on-road speed.

The OM616 revs upto 5100Rpm, the SD25 does not go beyond 4000Rpm, the XD3P's vary from 3800-4600Rpm.

So you are suggesting a change to OM616 or SD25 because for the same gearing the vehicle will go faster?

How much more top end will you gain 10-15Kmph at the most.

Do you have any open source information to support you claim that the OM616 is 10kgs Lighter than the XD3P, or its is something you feel.

I have also driven two CJ3B with Isuzu G1 and 2.0L Isuzu TD, they were quite sluggish on sand, and the gearboxes especially the 5speed is very fragile.

So what is the real advantage?
In the bargain you have to go in for
i) Adapter Plate, with a host of reliability issues.
ii) Additional Weight.
iii) Additional Cost.

Regards,

Arka

[Frankenstein]

Arka when you are in Hyderabad please give me a shout. You can see the difference yourself. No point having this google war.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by Frankenstein

Arka when you are in Hyderabad please give me a shout. You can see the difference yourself. No point having this google war.

Hi Sandeep,

I don't believe in googling too much.

How ever I prefer relying on common sense and observations.

Since the SD25 was available to M&M IIRC around the same time as the XD3P why didn't they fit it on any of their JEEPs, or why didn't they further upgrade that engine?

Regards,

Arka

[sreejeshmp]

Need Help on Alwyn-Nissan Cabstar Engine. (Not the Mahindra Engine)

Can you please share the details of this Engine ? Its available in reasonable price.

- Sreejesh

[Frankenstein]

Originally Posted by sreejeshmp

Need Help on Alwyn-Nissan Cabstar Engine. (Not the Mahindra Engine)

Can you please share the details of this Engine ? Its available in reasonable price.

- Sreejesh

There are engines lying in HYD scrap yards. Contact someone in HYD,they go for around 15 to 20k and you have to overhaul them. Check properly if its a Nissan SD25 with Diesel Kiki pump. Parts are a problem though.