26th September 2008, 00:10
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| BHPian  Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chandigarh
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26th September 2008, 01:14
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26th September 2008, 06:55
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| Senior - BHPian  Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Dharamsala, H.P
Posts: 2,075
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26th September 2008, 08:28
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26th September 2008, 09:50
| #5 | |
| BHPian  Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Bangalore
Posts: 417
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Isn’t the fuel tank located at the rear, so having a near full tank on off-road expeditions should help, shouldn’t it? Or else, would all that fuel shifting around be a deterrent? Was wondering if fuel in the tank can work like sand bags at the back of the vehicle. | |
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26th September 2008, 10:46
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| BHPian  | Quote:
 Nothing personal dude but i guess carrying sand bags might still be a better idea than working on the fuel tank funda! | |
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26th September 2008, 12:18
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| Senior - BHPian  | Jeeps articulation less than Gypsy and others?? Quote:
I disagree with you on saying Jeeps articualtions is less than or equal to Gypsy.I fail to believe you actually tested the vehicles on ramp to support your claim. The simple reason being the overall suspension travel of the Jeep (include any jeep you want) is greater than the gypsy. Simple, place your fist with thumbs up over the axle on rear axle of gypsy and measure the distance between the bump stop and the axle. Definately the jeep has better travel distance than Gypsy or the bolero. Iam claiming this both on my visual experience and as per my personal off roading experience Quote:
brutus, Please straighten the rear leaf of a 4x4 bolero and check the length vis-a vis a regular jeep. The length is shorter. In fact it is not know to many that a 2wd bolero has longest leafs of all the mahindras produced but not the 4wd ones. The front leaf is longer to compensate this. Also Bolero's wheel base is larger. Hence if you actually take it up the ramp a Bolero with or without the stabilizer bar it will lift the wheel sooner than the short wheel base counter part. Further on bolero the leaf springs at rear are mounted closer to the ends of axle. This would make the the overall articulation lesser than the regular jeep axle which has spring mounts closer to the differential. Further the additional length of the springs on any jeep other than bolero and invader makes it for a better articulation. I agree on the fact that axle articualtion is not the contention to indian manufacturers. Thats why if u see mahindra vehicles the articulation iof thieir newer vehicles are becoming worse. Though force gurkha has little suspension travel, especially in the front it makes up with diff locks For eg. CJ 3b & Cj 500d had the best articulation, MM540 followed next as the same length of springs moved near axle ends post 1989 models, NGCS had even lesser travel and every one knows about invader. Even scorpio getaway has one of the worst articualtion though scorpio has respectable articualtion among front IFS vehicles.Pickups have less articualtion due to load requirement. Further in your case a suspension that is not well tuned or has sagging springs will have lesser articulation. But if you compare the best of the stock suspension among gypsy, bolero and regular jeeps including ford, 3A . 3B etc etc, JEEPS RULE!! will post some pics and vides to suport my claim Note from Mod: Quotes fixed. The correct syntax => [quote=persons name]text text text text[/quote] Last edited by Rehaan : 27th September 2008 at 01:12. Reason: Quotes fixed. See note in post for correct quote syntax. | ||
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26th September 2008, 12:45
| #8 |
| Senior - BHPian | |
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26th September 2008, 13:27
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| Senior - BHPian | See the articulation of mm540!!! unfortunately i dont have the video of the same section done by blue thunders gypsy. I remember telling him lifting one wheel in air when doing the same section Quote:
Theres nothing wrong with invaders suspension. The only problem is rear having less articulation. The front leaf are long and shakle is also longer compared to other jeeps. The rear is a inverted leaf of axle set up. the set up is soft and comfortable. But little articulation. Rest of the vehicle no problem at all except for build wuality of the vehicle. It starts making noises well beore its elder brother regular bolero. Last edited by Rehaan : 27th September 2008 at 01:13. Reason: Posts merged. Please use the EDIT button to add to an existing post within 20 minutes instead of postnig another consecutive post. | |
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26th September 2008, 14:33
| #10 | |
| Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Dharamsala, H.P
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Build quality? I think it must be built on the same production line as the Bolero since it is so similar. | |
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26th September 2008, 15:22
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| Senior - BHPian | Quote:
Unfortunately you cannot fix it!!! If it was underslung spring set up one can increase the langth of shakle and improve the travel but not in invaders case. Having said this invader has much generous articulation front and rear combined compared to a gypsy in stock condition. Hence go ahead in taking one as it wouldnt let you down severely on wheel articulation alone. Though the invader is built on the same bolero platform it isnt as rigid as bolero. Rear tail gate especially rattles a lot over a period of time. Also with full load rear bottoms out on uneven surfaces. adding a leaf will sove the problem. Invader has one of the best ride comfort compared to any short chassis jeep. The 4wd suspension set up on invader is better to a 2wd set up as in 2wd invader there have been complains of rear bouncing over obstacles. In 2wd case the front and rear suspension isnt as optimised as in 4wd rigid axle set up. | |
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26th September 2008, 22:15
| #12 | ||||
| BHPian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chandigarh
Posts: 376
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| Hi Mr. Vinod, Quote:
Anyways, leave that alone, coz you can believe what ever you want to, and I'll explain whatever all i can to you. Firstly ,you are greatly mistaking suspension travel with articulation. The distance between the bump stop and the axle is the limit of vertical suspension travel ,not atriculation. Articulation is the independent movement of each side of the axle against each other. Even after one side of he axle had touched the bump stop the other side still goes lower, and the limit to that depends on the stabilizer/anti sway bar, if and, and the stiffness of the spring. also note that some springs are made stiffer when they are made to do without a stabilizer bar, so that it prevents the sway at turns but the disadvantage is that these spring have less flex. Also some springs have a helper leaf (usually the last leaf), whose purpose besides helping with the load when the vehicle lifts too much and literally sits down on its leaves, is to limit the downward travel.As for the distance between the bump stop and the axle,on a Jeep(any flatfender) you would really have to load up the jeep to get the axle to touch the bump stop or on the other hand ,you would have to take out some leaf springs to get a lower spring rates which would otherwise even bring the distance between the axle and bump-stop lower. I do have 2 Jeeps(65 and 71 model petrols), so i would not un-necessaryly opt for the Gypsy, which i dont prefer to use for offroading, but nonetheless, in terms of articulation, it can teach the jeep a thing or 2. The jeep has a very heavily arched spring and then again it has way too many springs which are provided to get the spring rate up. A Gypsy on the other hand has a few springs and they are flatter. The more arch you have in a spring, the lesser it will flex,therefore a straighter spring will always flex more. Go ask any offroader abroad who done a spring lift and he will tell you that the flex rate has gone down. And since you seem more interested in the suspension travel, and the distance between the axle and the bump stop, then let me tell you my friend that on my 65 Willys Cj3B that has 12 leaves the travel is 5.25"("= inch), the 71 Jeep that has 9 brand new leaves(as they come from the manufacturer) has 5" of travel, but i beleive they will sag after some time as they are brand new right now(but they are old model springs with the tapered ends, which used to come with MB/GPW's and M110/110 trailers, and the springs on the 65 Willys are not exactly sagged, but still a little lower than what they would have been if they were brand new), the 71 Jeep has a RCL chassis, and therefore it came with 12 leaves and and a coil spring on the rear, and the travel on it was 6.25". The Bolero when stock and as i measured before getting the springs changed to the ones of the pickup had a travel of 6" and now with the pickup leaf springs the travel is 7.25". I believe you can figure the rest yourself. Quote:
 (try using the net for specifications and other information if you cannot get it first hand). And yes about the 4x4 springs of the bolero, Well 2 months ago i put Mahindra Pickup springs on my Bolero to get some lift as i was using Scorpio wheels and tires and therefore, the tires would touch the wheel arch when the Bolero was loaded with a heavy trailer load. I gave my old springs to my cousin who has a 4x4 bolero and it fit just fine. And yes, what does a ramp test have to do with the wheelbase??? The test, infact, is to take one wheel of a single axle as high as you can while the other wheel still touches the ground. This is samething you can do by lifting one side of the axle by a jack(if its long enough), till the other wheel is about to lift off the ground.There is another Ramp test(done by professional offroaders)where they check the total articulation of the vehicle(hence even chassis flex comes into play along with the springs), but theres no point doing that test to stock vehicles, coz as they come, the stock springs of a vehicle are made stiff, not only coz it needs to lift weight, but also it needs to travel at high speeds so handling has to be taken care of, and by using stiffer springs , they can make do with minimum stabilizer bar stiffness to compromise its offroad use very much. The only vehicles that make do with softer springs soas to not compromise offroad performance are vehicles like the Nissan PatrolGQ/GU, which had a in-cabin switch for disconnecting the stabilizer bars for off-road use, and engage it againg for on-road use, just by a flick of a switch, or even the LandRover Defender, with the Air leveling suspension any swaybar disconnects. Thats called articulation, not the vertical travel as you are trying to put forward by stating the distance between the bump stop and the axle. The stabilizer or the anti-sway bar as its sometimes called, does not limit the wheel travel, but the articulation, as it forces one wheel in the same direction as the wheel on the other side of the axle. If 1 wheel goes up, the wheel on the other side goes up too,and vice-versa, but there is some flexiability as designed by the manufacter so as to allow a some bit of independent movement of the wheels against each other, but it limits that further than that. The motive of a sway bar is to prevent a vehicle from toppling over at high speeds. Also you seem to know the effects a wider spring hanging point has on the articulation flexing, and when you say the Gypsy has less articulation than the MM540/550, then you are trying to overlook the fact that the MM540/550 has a wider hang point on the axle than the Gypsy. Talking about the MM540/550(lets just call it the 540), the new 540's given to the Army(2005 models and later) have a shortened Bolero chassis and if you ask any Fauji about the differences he felt between the new and the old 540, he will certainly tell you how much he felt, the new one flexes. Not only that, it also adds the advantage of more chassis flex, that the older jeeps suffered due to a much stiffer chassis. Earlier when offoraders designed chassis frames, they had to keep in mind the purpose of the vehicle and the load it would lift. For carrying more load, the chassis had to be strong and for offroading, it had to flex, so the designers would have to strike a compromise between the 2, so it would become like jack of all trades,good at none. The modern chassis frames are different. Though its still a compromise, but not to that extent. The chassis of the Bolero with boxed side rails and tubular cross members, is twice as flexible that the Jeep chassis for the same amount of strenght as a jeep chassis has. Coming back to what you said on wider hang points, the Bolero has 30" of distance between the springs and the CJ3B has 26.5", thats a 3.5" of difference between a spring set that is 8" longer, has rubber/polyurethane bushes(the non-greaseable ones) at the mounts that add additional flex, has far less springs(6 springs), and a lot straighter than the Jeep spring set that is far shorter( 42' rear), has a solid bronse/plastic bush, has a lot more springs (9 from the factory, 12 for extra load), and a lot more arched spring set. Anybody abroad, whos into thorough offroading and has a short wheelbase flatfender or a Cj5/6/M38A1, firstly swaps the springs, and no, not for lift to fit larger tires which he could also get from a shakle lift or spring over or even a body lift, but for flex. Also there is something else you are forgetting, or rather a very important point. Again let me tell you, normal jeeps have about 9 springs at the rear, mine had 12 spring coz i took the chassis from a RCL jeep and it also had additional coil springs. I removed the coil springs and limited the rear spring to 9 and even then it could not articulate as much as the Bolero did. My friends Classic has 7 springs and a set of 33" mud terrians(pity he does'nt like offroading at all, just the style), and it does'nt surpass the Boleros flex. Check again ,my friend, a Bolero flexes more that a CJ 3b & Cj 500d would. What i state is mostly my experiances, that i have first hand, by experimently and observing, but mostly by trail and error, coz you just dont learn until you mess up quite badly. And also, unlike you people who go for off-roading in groups and have all the fun, i dont have neither the luxury nor the luck, coz people in Punjab, even though great fans of jeeps, are more interested in jeeps with fat rubber and Toyota diesels(so no 4x4's), and yes, they are always fashion conscious, so more worried about their, ''oh so expensive'' clothes getting dirty(comm'om man, you do get dirty if you even want to go anywhere close to something called offroading), so the only chance i get to go offroad with other people is in hunting trips(which doesn't have quite that much to do with offroading anyway, but you could call it cross-country driving). Otherwise, i go for offroading alone or with a friend on a single Jeep most of the times, and therefore, i know if i get stuck i will have a lot of trouble getting out coz of no other jeep being there to pull me out, but this i have a lot more chance to learn about these things and then try and make these things to perform better, that is way i am so keep on the Jonga project. Since i drive alone, i have to know the limits of the vehicle i am driving, and when i do get stuck, i either look for some friendly farmer with a tractor to bail me out, that is if the tractor can get there or if i cannot find one,then i take a lift or a bus, and go home and get my Bolero, which has bailed me out 90% of the times despite being a 4x2(and due to this, it suffered two broken pintle hook mounts, those round ones, and also a ripped front guard). Also when i said something about about articulation being ignored, i did not mean the manufactures, infact i meant individuals who use/or mod their vehicles for offorading(from the manufactures i seriously expect nothing rather than a sell us a 20 years old vehicle with a little makeup applied on i, and for the list of new fetures they generally state something like hidden/plastic covered hinges, new dashboard, but still without a defrost blower, new taillamps,woah what a difference, new look, yeh ,like we idiots dont know its the same old vehicle, and the likes of it, arrrghhhh, makes me mad sometimes). Leaving everything else aside, there are few people who know what all little mods can they make to their vehicles to make them better offroad(but diminishing onroad performance a lot), let alone know the amount of additional advantage can they get from a shakle reversal at the front. And these few poeple are generally those who make offroading groups, but still it takes a lot of money to make the mods, so people just back off. Now comming to the videos, the first Samurai(white one) that you complain has no flex, do you have any idea that the front suspension is limited by a stabilizer/Anti-sway, that your jeep does not have and therefore flex's more. The second Samurai(Black one) has diagonal wheels on large rocks where even the smaller rock is 1.5 feet tall, so no doubt it will have the wheels in the air(especially the front one with a anti sway bar), but what makes you think the jeep could do that better(with no modification as this gypsy is also without any mods).All springs(especially the ones designed without the sway bars) are stiff springs, even the jeeps, so that they dont topple away while making a hard turn. A jeep subjected to such a terrian will have the same kind of problems with its suspension. And yes, you said something about the Gypsy makes up with its powerful engine and light weight, with little articuation and opendiff. Well even though i dont have a gypsy but a jeep and also being a jeep guy primarily, its the other way around my friend. The jeep has way more torque, and that too at a much lower rpm, despites having almost similar weight( Jeep petrol 15.25kgm@1800-2000, Gypsy 10kgm at 3500rpm, and the 1 liter Gypsy engine had just 7.5 kgm torque). Quote:
The only thing that can be done is to weld the Bolero mounts under the frame, but then you would also have to take care to the axle which in this case is under the spring rather than over it, thereby giving it more height if you mount the springs under the rails. So even the axle has to be moved over the spring or you can move the front axle under the springs too and get about 4" lift. A coil spring mod would be great but a major problem we have in india is that useable coil springs come in only the Safari and the Scorpio. Leaving these aside, we dont have much of a choice. The ratings of both the Safari and Scorpio springs are too heavy(are almost the same due to their almost equal weight) to be used at the rear of lighter vehicles, and the rates too low to be used at the front. Also if i go for such a mod, i would surely like to get more of a lift, and these springs aint too long. All said and done, please dont take this too personally(though i did not like it one bit about what you said in the beginning, but anyways). I learnt a lot while making mistakes on the field and some i learnt on the net from people, who i call friends. Also when you pick some good info from the net, just try to pick the concept and not the entire info. Instead try figuring out yourself why it works and why it does not, by doing some experiments and observing things. I say this coz somethings that work on other vehicles might not work on ours. Also info got on the net for free is worth absolutely that much, remember this. I am so indulgent in these thing, that most of the time you will find me either under the hood or underneath the body of any 4x4. My friends tease me that even my children will be born underneath a 4x4, but i'll leave the part about what they say about my marriage and honeymoon .Quote:
Take care, Regards, Bikram | ||||
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27th September 2008, 00:25
| #13 |
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27th September 2008, 13:26
| #14 |
| BHPian | BikramJi tussi chaa gaye Paaji....  Just amazing! the amount of info and knowledge you have shared here. Guess i should make you my idol as i am planning to start up a Jeep project. OT: I guess that would probably go down as the longest post on T-BHP ever. |
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27th September 2008, 14:08
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| Senior - BHPian  | |
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