[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

What i was trying to put across was even with A/C, PS proper seats carpets hardtop etc if a 40 hp engine is sold at competitive price say 4 lakhs there will be few takers as On road cruising is as important as off road manners.

I am one of the guys who thinks lets keep both separate. Because we are in India and choices are limited.

AC + PS the bare minimum for a good cruiser is required for just that - cruising. Not for offroad. Yeah there are some who do like offroading with the AC switched on. But then that's beside the point.

40 bhp with AC + PS will be a no-no both cruising and offroading. Consider the weight of the AC system and the corresponding electricals - no going into water.. And cruising it will not go beyond 80 kmph. Bad enough forget other parameters.

Especially with new vehicles and especially if it is the only 4x4 at home an underpowered vehicle with core competancy in one area (off road capability in this case) will not sell. It has to be an all rounder.

All rounder will be costly to buy, run and fix. And both competencies will be compromised to an extent where the shortcomings will affect the sale of the vehicle.

The Bolero 4x4 is bad off road.

The Scorpio is way too heavy. And with the IFS on 4x4, costly if broken.

Gurkha is a myth.

Safari - well competent but needs to get better. Price is high.

All others (the big daddies) are beyond my reach. Even if i get one i will be shitting bricks to take it where i take the Classic.

But yeah an allrounder within 6 lakhs and we have a deal.

[desertfox]

I have been off roading with Roshan. His 4x4 Scorpio did pretty fine. In airconditione d comfort. Thats what brought me to this thought process. Why not off road in A/C comfort while 80 % of the driving is on road.

Roshans Scorpio went everywhere where my Cj3B jeep went and some of the terrain was trecherous.

The big difference is in driving comfort, the last fifteen years I drove a Landcruiser Prado, LWB, then SWB and ocasssionaly my Landcruiser 100 series V8 VXR in the desert.

It is a great contrast to the handling and cabin comfort of this Jeep. And the petrol hungry Hurricane engine is expensive. On a trip to say Hissar I would end up with Rs. 5,000 worth of fuel expense if I took the Jeep plus the grit, dust and sweat.

In Dubai petrol was Rs. 11 a litre, the Prado averaged the same as the Jeep about 6.5 kmpl with a V6, 3400 cc engine.

But its a Jeep thing you know.

[Brutus]

BSF uses the Scorpio 4x4 as an official vehicle, so i got a chance to slugh it once, but it got stuck when it found its first dune. Maybe it was due to the weight, but i never got the chance to drive it at any other type of terrian. There's another firend who's got one, but he says its too costly to be "mis-used", lol. Wonder why he bought it in the first place?

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by brutus

BSF uses the Scorpio 4x4 as an official vehicle, so i got a chance to slugh it once, but it got stuck when it found its first dune. Maybe it was due to the weight, but i never got the chance to drive it at any other type of terrian. There's another firend who's got one, but he says its too costly to be "mis-used", lol. Wonder why he bought it in the first place?

Definitely not as good as any of the shorter chasis/lighter off-roaders, but his reasoning for getting a Bolero 4WD is to have a vehicle that has good on-road characteristics. I still feel that Scorpio 4WD is a better bet than the Bolero 4WD if your idea is to have 70 to 80 percent on-road driving. The perfect combination is to always have a CJ/MM/Gypsy purely for off-road use and a competent highway cruiser for everthing else. Atleat that is my game plan.. I just cannot seem to decide on my 4WD Tourer. I had decided on the refreshed Scropio but now I am told that the Mhawk engine is not offered with 4WD and there is no way I am going to get an older discontinued engine !!

[Brutus]

That correct, none of the other ones would provide you with the comfort and features that the scorpio has.
Heh, my bolero does'nt even have a front windscreen blower, and the 540's or a Chotti body would'nt even an A/c. I too only realized the importance of such small matters when i went to Narkanda. The windscreens had fogged up and theres nothing you can do except hand your co-driver something the wipe the screen with every few minutes.

[Roshun]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

I agree with this assessment. I think the Scropio will handle pretty much anything the Bolero can handle. With the new pricing, I think the Scorpio is a better bet. The XD3P engine that comes with the 4WD bolero is quite underpowered. If the scorpio CRDe was offered in 4WD, I would have considered it, but with the older engines, it is not worth it in my opinion. In this age of 100+ bhp vehilces, why buy a brand new vehicle with only 68 bhp?

The Scorpio is not meant to be a real hard-core offroader. But it will get you out of any sticky situation when the need arises. I have had no problems with scaling sand dunes (Jaisalmer), rocks & shrubs (Manesar), descents and ascents, paddy fields (somewhere in UP). The Scorp can go anywhere the jeeps can, but you have to watch out for a couple of things.
1. The clearance is not too good - and the dangly plastic bits & steps can ground.
2. With the standard HT tyres - slush is a bad experience (an oasis in Jaisalmer fossil park), and the weight makes the vehicle sink quite easily. It's a tad lighter than the Safari though, but the Safari has better ground clearance (and steel steps - not aluminium ones).

It has plenty of torque and in 4L can easily power up slopes, where you would need a lot of momentum in a CJ or MB.

Given the right set of tyres it will go pretty much anywhere, as long as you treat it like a soft-roader and not do hard-core stuff like the jeeps. It will do that too - but it could also cause some expensive dents. Know your limits and it's a competent off-roader.

If you asked me to recommend it - I would whole-heartedly!

Shahid, if you can wait for a couple of months - the M-Hawk 4x4 is on its way. They've been testing it.

Cheers,

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by Roshun

Given the right set of tyres it will go pretty much anywhere, as long as you treat it like a soft-roader and not do hard-core stuff like the jeeps. It will do that too - but it could also cause some expensive dents. Know your limits and it's a competent off-roader.

If you asked me to recommend it - I would whole-heartedly!

The point I wanted to emphasise is that the Bolero 4WD is not exactly a great off-roader it is predominantly on-road vehicle which can handle certain off-road situations which I am sure a Scorpio can handle as well. For the weight of the Bolero the 68 bhp XD3p is really underpowered and you will suffer from lack of torque when you try to scale any steep incline. Most of the XD3Ps you see in the OTR are from Army 550s which make about 75 bhp and are powering much ligher MM540s and not the heavy Bolero 4WD. Scorpio will give the same (sometimes better due to engine power/torque) than the Bolero 4WD with much better on-road highway characteristics than the Bolero.

Originally Posted by Roshun

Shahid, if you can wait for a couple of months - the M-Hawk 4x4 is on its way. They've been testing it.

This is good news man. Please update us if you hear any more about it.

[Brutus]

Hi Guys,

I wanted to ask a question, but please dont take it in the wrong sense, its not to argue but rather where you place your views or rather the theories. I am posting it here since its a bolero 4x4 thread.

Time and time again i've heard the Bolero is not a good off-roader, rather an on-road vehicle which can handle certain off-road situations. No-problem, its just like every modern day off-roaders that have been designed to for 80% on-road travel and 20% offroad, so i agree with that totally.

Now my point is, that the MM550 shares just about everything with a Bolero, as far as powertrain is concerned.
Here are certain differences between the 2, and i'am sure there might be more, so if you figure something please point it out:-
1) They share basically the same chassis, but theres a 10" difference in the wheelbase.
2)The same engine, almost the same low gear ratios, the same axles front and rear, the same track, although there is about a 250kgs difference between the 2, and that makes the bolero a little underpowered.
3)There is not that much of a difference between the front and rear overhangs too.

Now i am not saying the Bolero is better than the mm550, coz the 550 clearly has all the advantages that a good offroader can have on paper.
Rather my point is that if the MM540/550 series is termed as one of the best offroaders in India, why do you think the Bolero, even though sharing the same things is still termed as basically a on-road vehilce that is capable of light offroad duties?
Regards,
Bikram

[4x4addict]

I think the leafspring set up is different. I am not a hundred percent sure on this. But I recall some discussions between Arka and Vinood about in a Bolero 4WD thread that due the difference in the leafspring set up the Bolero has much less wheel articulation than the MM540. Again this is not something that I have measured or looked at personally. Just observations from others on the thread.

I also think the ground clearance is also less, but this is probably because of the 215 tires which can be easily rectified..

The only reason why I was suggesting the Scorpio over the Bolero 4WD is because if someone planned to use it 70%-80% on the road, then you may as well compromise a little bit on the off-roadability and have a much more modern power train as opposed to the 68 bhp XD3P engine which kind of struggles to keep the Bolero going. If I could get the CRDe version of the Bolero with 4WD, I would definitely have considered it.

[razor4077]

Originally Posted by Roshun

The Scorpio is not meant to be a real hard-core offroader. But it will get you out of any sticky situation when the need arises.

Given the right set of tyres it will go pretty much anywhere, as long as you treat it like a soft-roader and not do hard-core stuff like the jeeps. It will do that too - but it could also cause some expensive dents. Know your limits and it's a competent off-roader.

If you asked me to recommend it - I would whole-heartedly!

Agreed, 100%. You wouldn't buy a 4x4 Scorp to do hardcore off-roading. If you need an SUV that is good to drive on-road, has all the necessary creature comforts, and can tackle the occasional dirt tracks, mud, slush, rocks and gravel when thrown at it, this is your vehicle.
I guess desertfox's expectations would determine if a Scorp 4x4 would suffice, or a more bare-bones, true blue 4x4 is called for.

[Brutus]

Yes, buti really dont think the mm550 front end is much different, that i might be front.
I'am not at all trying a have a comparison, but rather point out the number of faults of the bolero that can be rectified.The reason why i asked this question is that instead of selling off my bolero, i've been thinking of try'n making a coil-over shock, atlas xfer-case and an older 2.6 geardrive-cam motor powered bolero but i need all the points that would go against it.

[desertfox]

My Bolero SLX also has an independent front suspension, like a scorpio. It has coil springs and shocks, the rear suspension is leaf springs.

On these Boleros SLX and SLE Mahindra has an upgraded version, not the XDP3 engine, but another 2600 cc engine.

When it comes to interior cabin space is a Bolero roomier than the Scorpio ?

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by desertfox

My Bolero SLX also has an independent front suspension, like a scorpio. It has coil springs and shocks, the rear suspension is leaf springs.

On these Boleros SLX and SLE Mahindra has an upgraded version, not the XDP3 engine, but another 2600 cc engine.

When it comes to interior cabin space is a Bolero roomier than the Scorpio ?

Thats the 4x2 version you'r talking about. The 4x4 always came with a solid front and leaf-sprung all around.

[desertfox]

One frequent comparision that I keep hearing is - A Bolero climbed a hill or went up a Himalyan slope ( paved of course ) where a Scorpio struggles.

How is it possible.

A Bolero SLX with the DI Turbo has only 68 bhp wheras even a 2.6 crd Scorpio has 120 odd I guess.

With a Superior power to Weight ratio and greater torque why would a Scorpio struggle where a Bolero glides assuming both vehicles are M/T ?

[Brutus]

Well when your offroad, Hp doesn't matter, its torque territory,and still the Bolero looses out to the scorpio, although that difference is smaller at speeds that matter the most, and that is low-end torque right off idle.

There is one incident that might ease up things for you. There is the very steep slope outside the parking lot of my flat in shimla, all cemented. It travels steeply in one direction for about 4 meters and then suddenly makes a 70degree-turn and the slope gets more steep. Out of all the vehicles that i've taken there, only 3 vehicles had a hard time.
1st is the Verna, althought i don't blame it that much. The steep is such that it requires declutching, and the verna just lost out because it needed to be propelled to 2000rpm to do any sort of climbing. Once i got the hang to declutching at a slightly higher rpm, it was a breeze.
The 2nd and 3rd vehicles, are the Mercedes E250d and the Scorpio(coil spring 2.6). Both the vehicles had loads of power and tried both empty and loaded, but you see the weight distribution is such, that it just kept the rear tires spinning. The Scorpio had the same Bridgestones H/T that my Bolero had the time 235's and 16" rims. The bolero itself had no traction problems, but the puny little peugoet needed lots of declutching, especially during the first few meters of the slope.
Oh, how did we manage to get both the vehicles out. The Scorpio just needs 3 people standing on the rear footstet, holding on the the top spoiler and hanging on for dear life.
The Mercedes, was loaded, and stones placed behind the tires whenever it stopped along the slope.
Besides, is there anyway to heat the fuel lines when we venture out to the snowcapped peaks.?I twice had to mess with frozen diesel fuel lines. I need some sort of a heater like the Mercedes has in its fuel lines. Now don't ask me to buy them from Mercedes, i want to help myself, not hang myself.