[antihero]

It’s been a while since I’ve updated this thread and since today is a rare sunny day here in Patnitop, I don’t have much of an excuse. 4865 hasn’t got much TLC for most of 2020 and no long trips because of the corona lockdowns and restrictions. Yet, with the snowfall predicted on the 12th of December it seemed only practical to visit Lalaji (our Gypsy mechanic/overlord) & Sambi (our electrician) and give it a once over. Thankfully G decided to join me on his motorcycle because a visit to Lalaji needs 2 people. One to learn from him another to fetch the spares that he needs to his exacting specifications. No non-genuine parts allowed and even genuine are inspected and often rejected for another piece.

Conversation at shop

Dealer - “Sir, you’re buying a lot. Who is the mechanic”
Me - “Lalaji”
Dealer - “taking back non genuine parts, yeh to nahi lagayenge…plus the ones you’re taking will need a month to install”

What followed was a 3 day (and nights) learning workshop in the workshop.

The front ball and rocket joints were pronounced ok which was a relief because that is a 2 day job. “But there’s something wrong with the rear brakes” - Lalaji remarks. One whole day to service the rear brakes and bearings. The driver rear brake pistons is shot, it is rebuilt with original TVS-Girling parts. The passenger rear bearings need preventive replacing and original SGP can not be found. Takes a few hours to get the MGP parts and to convince Lalaji to put them on. Back home at 2100 hours. My friend’s G’s parents worried and intrigued.



Day 2 is a full carb rebuild. One of the few jobs that no mechanic will do…willingly. Even Lalaji ha stopped doing it owning to petrol and throttle body cleaner inhalation. Don’t take my word for it - check its your mechanic. But G insisted and they go a long long way back. Lalaji’s father was his father’s Indian Chief motorcycle mechanic. I am on managing Lalaji’s phone as a personal Do Not Disturb assistant.




So the carb was taken apart, cleaned multiple times. The last of the SGP repair kits that we have been hoarding for over 10 years now is put in. The slow jet is not exact so its filed with the thinnest diamond file and replaced. To cut a long story short we came back home from the workshop at 0100 hours. Much to the chagrin of the family!



Day 3 is a general checkup, distributer timing, tappets and all fluids change & engine tuneup. G’s family decide to visit, they were probably thinking we had the gypsy as an excuse while off gallivanting to the nearest bar or something. So a nice picnic lunch on one of the shells of old M800. Back home at 12 PM - dead tired but the gypsy purrs like a fluffy kitten. I reckon a couple of horses have been re-put back in the engine. The current state of tune is power over economy owning to the fact that winters mean pushing through fresh snow in 4L.




Finally here's a list of what we achieved in 3 full days -

1. fresh oil
2. fresh coolant
3. fresh transmission fluid
4. all 4 brakes inspected & bled. Rear brake piston replaced, new pads in the rear
5. Full carb service and rebuild using SGP spares
6. Gear lever bushes replaced
7. General tuneup, tappet adjustment, new distributer point & timing adjustment
8. New spark plugs and HT leads
9. New coil lead
10. Windshield wipers replaced
11. Wiper water throw motor rebuilt
13. Starter "ghuggi" replaced with original TVS LUCAS part and all non functioning bulbs, lights etc replaced.

The drive back to Patnitop is sublime, the engine purrs along and I sit back and let G enjoy the drive back. He’s earned as much for running around sourcing the parts. Back home, I decide to take off the aftermarket LPG and Air Conditioner setup off because a) I never intend to run it on LPG b) AC is no use in the hills and c) the amount of piping confuses me when I’m working on the engine. So I dig out my spanners and get to work. Thankfully I’d applied WD40 to all bolts the previous day and they came off without much chagrin. Once all the extra piping and wiring are off, I take a roll of electric tape and seal off the loose wires.






Finally follow with a Diesel cleanup and a car wash the next day. This diesel drenching has given me a good idea about the rust spots. There are a few on the body but for a 25 year old girl its fairly spiffy thanks to regular washing. I reckon this bosyshell will outlast the engine. Finally the 4865 is in a state of mechanical tune that is in harmony with my state of mind.

And while we were working on this we get this bit of good news. SO that means I can run the 4865 for another 10 years!



This calls for a long trip planning so crank up favourite driving song playlist and chalk out a Google Maps line through Nepal and on to Darjeeling and Arunachal and Meghalaya. That’s where the old girl is headed in 2021.

“East bound and down, loaded up and truckin'
A-we gonna do what they say can't be done
We've got a long way to go, and a short time to get there
I'm east bound, just watch ol' "Bandit" run
Keep your foot hard on the pedal
Son, never mind them brakes
Let it all hang out 'cause we got a run to make
The boys are thirsty in Atlanta
And there's beer in Texarkana
And we'll bring it back no matter what it takes”


I had put off the interiors and the paintwork because this news was a rumour till last year. It is now official. So now I’m going to start with the interiors and the paintwork for the 4865. I was contemplating powder blue (my favourite shade on the old Japanese M800) but that is shot down by my girlfriend who has no sense of nostalgia ) so Olive Green or Pure White it is. The idea is not to bling up the old girl but to source whatever OEM is available and keep it completely and immaculately stock (and hence reliable).

Plan to start with securing a pair of used rear jump seats and replacing the door trim (which has seen better days) then off to other bits and bobs like the rear door lock cover and more… But most of that will be achieved after the winter snow melts. For now I plan to live and love the mechanical purity of the 4865 over the next 3 months.

[Red Liner]

What a fabulous update. Looking forward to more anti hero. Especially the trip planning and all the associated banter.

[antihero]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

What a fabulous update. Looking forward to more anti hero. Especially the trip planning and all the associated banter.

So the N.E. plan will have to wait, for now its all about the snow.



And now the real reason why going to Lalaji was imperative. For a change the Meteorological Department was right and we received a decent snowfall this 12th. Tradition dictates that we visit the local air force station at Nathatop (2750m) on each snow day. Only this time courtesy Covid19 I had all of G’s family with me. I struggled with getting everyone ready and in the Gypsy before the tourist hordes arrive.







It was me and the 2 kids piled in the back the 4865 we trudged all the way up to 2750m with what I reckon some great views along the way. All the way up in 4wd and back in 4H.



A few notes:
1. With 3 well fed people in the back the rear tyre traction was excellent. We never had a slip or a fishtail.



2. The stock CEAT tyres need to be aired down considerably to find reasonable purchase. If I had to rate the best pair of tyres for the snow The Michelin AT (flexible sidewalls, most sipes, softer rubber than most Indian brands) would come out tops! Followed by Yokohama. It is my seat of pants feeling but the softer the rubber compound the better the grip in cold weather. Perhaps someone with more hands on knowledge/experience can elaborate on whether my hypothesis is correct.



3. With 5 people I had to go a gear lower than my usual lone ride, like I said the fuel mixture has been adjusted for more fuel hence power over economy during the winters yet, the F10 engine was only 45 bhp when new. However, that being said with 5 aboard and a medium gradient you can get well along easily in 4L - 3rd (about the same gear ratio as 2H-1st). Yet the 4L-3rd offers 2 lower gears that can be engaged without needing to stop and rebuild momentum. Momentum is your friend in snow. Keep it ticking at around 3k RPM. Stop & Start is a bad technique - because regaining traction from a complete stop is especially tricky on an icy incline. So engage the gear in anticipation of the terrain rather than when you need it. Not only does it keep the change smooth but it helps retain momentum. On the flip side running too low a gear means spinning the tyres which ain’t helpful either. These are some finer ice/snow driving tips that you learn with experience. The Gypsy is an excellent tutor as there is no power anything. Everything is rigid and direct. If you’re willing to learn…
4. More power is not the answer in the snow. You are always, always restricted by 1. traction and then 2. ground clearance. Power comes a distant 3rd. The best investment in winter Himalaya is a pair of good tyres (more edges/sipes the better) see point 2

[Red Liner]

That first picture was just mental.

[antihero]

Quick update as promised. The interior sprucing up has started with all new OEM door padsi At under 300 rs each, it's a quick and cheap fix.




Next on the list is fresh seat belts and then seats. I'm not sure if the new MG413 has retractable belts. If so, can someone share the part number with me ? Thank you.

[Vikram Arya]

Originally Posted by antihero

2. The stock CEAT tyres need to be aired down considerably to find reasonable purchase. If I had to rate the best pair of tyres for the snow The Michelin AT (flexible sidewalls, most sipes, softer rubber than most Indian brands) would come out tops! Followed by Yokohama. It is my seat of pants feeling but the softer the rubber compound the better the grip in cold weather. Perhaps someone with more hands on knowledge/experience can elaborate on whether my hypothesis is correct.

4. More power is not the answer in the snow. You are always, always restricted by 1. traction and then 2. ground clearance. Power comes a distant 3rd. The best investment in winter Himalaya is a pair of good tyres (more edges/sipes the better) see point 2

Hi Bharat,

You've taken quite a hiatus after your last post. Glad to have you back.

Your journey to restore this beauty is very interesting; keep up the good work. The details about Lalaji and his painstaking work on your Gypsy reminds me of a breed of mechanics that is diminishing fast. I'm lucky to have our Gypsy legend "Minnie" in Shimla and you have Lalaji. God bless them!

In regards to the driving on snow; the points that you've raised are all very much valid. The only time you need power is when you're ploughing through deep snow but the power will help only if you've taken care of traction and ground clearance. We had a massive dump about 4 weeks ago and received 31 inches of the white stuff in 16 hours; fortunately my wife's Santa Fe comes with a differential lock so off I went (the vehicle has 8 inches of ground clearance and dedicated winter tires & wheels along with a 276 bhp V-6 under the hood). Unfortunately a dedicated winter tire wouldn't make sense in India as these tires wear out very quickly above 7C.

For your next set of tires I would strongly recommend BFG T/A KO2s. It is a soft rubber compound tire, has a deep interlocking tread-block pattern and comprehensive siping with 3 ply polyester chord sidewall. These are now officially available through BFG India & you do have a BFG dealer in Jammu.



The tire is "Severe Snow Service Rated" and comes with 3PMSF (Mountain Snow Flake) that makes it perfect for where you are located.



Looking forward to your next post.

Drive safe my friend.

[sudev]

Try and drive with lowest torque required for the surface and you get some traction. Same as sand - too much throttle and things just do not move but get stuck.

Even taking vehicle away from road for that fabulous picture could turn in to nightmare when trying to come back. So extreme caution is advised.

Lovely pictures by @antihero

[antihero]

Its beginning to look a lot like Christmas



With the recent 2L price drop, the Jimny is a good contender for the next 15 years of bad-roading in the mountains.

More than the price its the constant government interference with old vehicles that is disappointing. Reusing a well-maintained old vehicle is much more environmentally friendly than an EV for that matter.

But I digress, the new Jimny is here, bought cash down in one day as they had my favourite colour available. To celebrate I took it for a 900 km trip in the mountains. Compared to the 410W here area few key observations -
1. The DNA has not changed, it still behaves like a 410W does. Only it is better in every single aspect - suspension, engine, comfort... the lot.
2. The biggest change is the suspension especially over rutted roads and gravel, especially the fist sized gravel so common in the mountains. The Jimny can hold its own on such trails, no more shuddering and bone rattling jerks. The suspension is a good two generations advanced from the original 410 and that alone is worth the money.
3. There is transmission whine (see DNA) there is the 4wd lever shake, just not as much. Like i said improved.
4. The launch price for the zeta model (rural model as i call it) should have been 9.99L. Alpha has upgrades for the urban environment like alloys, request sensor etc that has no bearing in rural areas.
5. The steel wheels look excellent and are reasonably strong
6. The stock tires are geared towards mileage. If you live in a city they work just fine. In the mountains not as much. Which is why I upgraded to the best I could find locally - Conti Cross contact in the "correct" size 215/75R15



Original tyres



Continental AT tyres in the right size!

The old 410W stays home. While i had the option of giving it away as exchange or to scrap it (thanks government). I think the old girl has deserves a life as a senior citizen in the estate. It will not be mollycoddled but will trudge on doing what it does best, being there when the snow hits the fan / heavy monsoons.
I have got a trickle charger just for its battery and 4 body jacks to keep it elevated.

I will also keep the thread alive because there are a lot of old tales to tell about this wonderful machine and the places it has taken me.

Maybe another thread about the Jimny from the perspective of an old Gypsy fart who has used it as a primary car for the past 10 years? Let me know if you think it will be relevant for you.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by antihero

Its beginning to look a lot like Christmas

I will also keep the thread alive because there are a lot of old tales to tell about this wonderful machine and the places it has taken me.

Maybe another thread about the Jimny from the perspective of an old Gypsy fart who has used it as a primary car for the past 10 years? Let me know if you think it will be relevant for you.

Please please most definitely keep your Gypsy and the thread alive. There are a lot of Gypsy enthusiasts here who will love to read and refer to your threads.

You’re one of the lucky few who own both a Gypsy and a Jimny. Im ‘hopeful’ to join your exalted company some day.

[B5glider]

But I digress, the new Jimny is here, bought cash down in one day as they had my favourite colour available. To celebrate I took it for a 900 km trip in the mountains. Compared to the 410W here area few key observations -
1. The DNA has not changed, it still behaves like a 410W does. Only it is better in every single aspect - suspension, engine, comfort... the lot.
2. The biggest change is the suspension especially over rutted roads and gravel, especially the fist sized gravel so common in the mountains. The Jimny can hold its own on such trails, no more shuddering and bone rattling jerks. The suspension is a good two generations advanced from the original 410 and that alone is worth the money.
3. There is transmission whine (see DNA) there is the 4wd lever shake, just not as much. Like i said improved.

The old 410W stays home. While i had the option of giving it away as exchange or to scrap it (thanks government). I think the old girl has deserves a life as a senior citizen in the estate.

Thx sir. Request to keep this alive. I have a long pending dream to own a gypsy for my own. Iam in Bangalore and during one of my vacations, i went to assam and found some good gypsies at good prices. Iam going to put my foot down somewhere in march and going to buy one. I consciously gave a miss to jimny since i see the gypsy looks more aligned to my liking. Pure my taste on looks not to hurt anyone. Looking at the improvements you have pointed out, is this a fair move please or am i making a mistake by going back 2 gens? Thx in advance

[antihero]

Originally Posted by B5glider

Thx sir. Request to keep this alive. I have a long pending dream to own a gypsy for my own. Iam in Bangalore and during one of my vacations, i went to assam and found some good gypsies at good prices. Iam going to put my foot down somewhere in march and going to buy one. I consciously gave a miss to jimny since i see the gypsy looks more aligned to my liking. Pure my taste on looks not to hurt anyone. Looking at the improvements you have pointed out, is this a fair move please or am i making a mistake by going back 2 gens? Thx in advance

Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. I still think the gypsy looks better than the Jimny ( probably because I bond with the gypsy better due to our long association) But getting back to your question - there's no right or wrong here - it depends on your application. If you want a vehicle for badroading or as a project the Gypsy is still a good bet. It is also more engaging (not better) than the Jimny primarily because it's a much simple machine. The Jimny is better in every single way especially comfort and the new engine is lovely too. I wouldn't give much thought to the generation. I would concentrate on what I need the vehicle for. For certain use cases the gypsy still rules the roost.

However do be aware that an older vehicle will require more love and care and spares are getting harder to come by.

I for one bought the Jimny because for us living in the Himalayas it's not a secondary vehicle but rather the main workhorse and while the gyspy has never failed me mechanically, I will be unable to drive it due to the end of servicable life i.e. 25 years (which I reckon is a stupid government regulation) .

P.s. the fuel costs are not much different between the two. Well maintained gypsy 11-13 kmpl. The Jimny MT 14-16 kmpl in daily use. Just putting it out there for people who'd like to compare the running costs.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by antihero

I will be unable to drive it due to the end of servicable life i.e. 25 years (which I reckon is a stupid government regulation) .

P.s. the fuel costs are not much different between.

Sir people are still able to keep and drive their Ambassadors and Fiats and early edition Maruti 800 SS80’s and Vans. The regulations do seem to allow for this. The Gypsy therefore (I think) can be ‘kept alive’ and used occasionally. I don’t think it will fall victim so easily to this idiotic government push to kill our perfectly serviceable and useable, best-beloved old vehicles. Iam sure you can find a way to achieve this.

[Vikram Arya]

Originally Posted by antihero

Its beginning to look a lot like Christmas

Attachment 2548347

With the recent 2L price drop, the Jimny is a good contender for the next 15 years of bad-roading in the mountains.

I will also keep the thread alive because there are a lot of old tales to tell about this wonderful machine and the places it has taken me.

Maybe another thread about the Jimny from the perspective of an old Gypsy fart who has used it as a primary car for the past 10 years? Let me know if you think it will be relevant for you.

Many congratulations sir!! Jimny is a perfect vehicle for your use case.

I was in India recently, specifically in Dharamshala on a very short trip (10 days) in late December and had the opportunity to test drive the Jimny at the local dealership at Nagrota. Drove the vehicle for about 6 kms on the tarmac and then asked the salesperson if there was a bit more challenging area where we could see its so-called capabilities to tackle the rough stuff. Sure enough, he told me to follow a dirt road for about 1km and there was a riverbed with about 3 feet of water and spherical stones that you find in abundance in any khudd (that's what we call a small rivulet in Himachal). I engaged 4L and took the vehicle in with some trepidation but was I amazed at the utter nonchalance with which it crossed the river as if it were a walk in the park. Long story short I was truly & surely impressed.

I entirely agree with your assessment that it is almost able to do everything that a Gypsy can albeit in much more comfort. I was almost tempted to put down a security deposit, especially in light of the very delicious discount but…..one day. For now, I’m quite happy with my Gypsy and with only 11,000 kms on the clock, it’s almost new.

Here’s a picture of the King on one of the mountain trails near Palampur that I ventured onto this time.



I have not been able to log into the Team-bhp portal for quite a few months so thank you for bringing this thread to life. Looking forward to some interesting posts from you going forward in either of these two beauties.