[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

(well, here goes for the second time, let me start by asking). .

Dear all 4*4 enthusiasts - what is it that you would want in a Double Cab / Single Cab type of 4WD vehicle and how much money will you pay for it in India?

I mean weight / wheelbase / approach and departure angles / engine power to weight ratio / torque / transmission and axle ratio configuration / ground clearance / suspension configuration / brakes / preference for double cab or single cab / platform style / mechanical and styling upgrade options etc. I am starting with two attributes as given: 1) BS4. 2) White number plate.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS: Dear Moderators - will appreciate if you could hive this post off as a separate thread in the 4*4 section of the forum.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

(well, here goes for the second time, let me start by asking). .

Dear all 4*4 enthusiasts - what is it that you would want in a Double Cab / Single Cab type of 4WD vehicle and how much money will you pay for it in India?

I mean weight / wheelbase / approach and departure angles / engine power to weight ratio / torque / transmission and axle ratio configuration / ground clearance / suspension configuration / brakes / preference for double cab or single cab / platform style / mechanical and styling upgrade options etc. I am starting with two attributes as given: 1) BS4. 2) White number plate.

Dear DB

It looks like your special-vehicle focus has shifted from the Sumo to the much more deserving Xenon. It looks like a much more workable (and desirable) proposition, and I wish you all the very best.

Hopefully this time we will go beyond talk to an actual vehicle, but as you are aware the Xenon in its current avatar has some serious fundamental issues that need to be sorted out before you can consider other manageable stuff like ground clearance and other user-modifiable stuff. You need to sort out:

1. Length. WAAAAY to long for the kind of trails you have in India - historically we are restricted to crawl-speed Jeep trails that are very narrow, unlike other countries where off-road trails offer a good mix of everything. You can blame that scenario on the fact that your previous employer's vehicles were the primary drivers on that terrain, therefore a tractor engine on a bullock-cart is what is considered ideal currently. This will not change until you bring along a vehicle that takes the game a step higher at a time - a full-on paradigm change will be rejected outright by the current users, and for good reason too because a majority don't have a vehicle that can do much more than that.

2. Wheelbase, turning radius.

3. Dual-cab 2nd row - the Xenon, like its ancestor the 207/Tatamobile/Telcoline, has a rather upright 2nd row. The driver and front passenger are happy chappies, but unless you plan to use the dual cab to carry your dog it really serves no purpose for human transportation in the long run.

4. Rear overhang - can accommodate a Nano. I've seen some really smart chop-jobs in South Africa, which with a nice 2"++ lift makes the truck seem really butch and menacing. The South Africans know their Bakkies - just spend some time there talking to your customers and you will find a lot of usable answers. Amongst the feedback I have heard there are:

• Suspension is fine as it facilitates an easy lift, but it could be a bit more plaint (too stiff now) and the vehicle should come with more serious dampers than what it has.
• Rear chop job messy/time consuming because of the fuel tank.
• Poor cabin ergonomics - steering wheel obstructs view of the dials, gearbox okay but shifts too long for off-road use (shouldnt be a problem here for people used to Mahindras).
• Why does the heavy bonnet not have a hydraulic strut? (surprised - I thought it had).
• Long-wheelbase makes for pricey and heavy rock slider accessories.
• Dual-cab best utilised for icebox/freezer.
• OE load-bed lining is excellent.
• Engine is really nice, but could use some more low-end torque. (138bhp 3.0 Dicor?)

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

(well, here goes for the second time, let me start by asking). .

Dear all 4*4 enthusiasts - what is it that you would want in a Double Cab / Single Cab type of 4WD vehicle and how much money will you pay for it in India?

I mean weight / wheelbase / approach and departure angles / engine power to weight ratio / torque / transmission and axle ratio configuration / ground clearance / suspension configuration / brakes / preference for double cab or single cab / platform style / mechanical and styling upgrade options etc. I am starting with two attributes as given: 1) BS4. 2) White number plate.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS: Dear Moderators - will appreciate if you could hive this post off as a separate thread in the 4*4 section of the forum.

Thanks for asking.
The Tata 3.0L dual cab is good enough.
All that is needed is 31" tires (255/80 R16), better reliability, and availability of accessories like loading back locking mechanism.
New vehicle not needed.

[Pardus]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

(well, here goes for the second time, let me start by asking). .

Dear all 4*4 enthusiasts - what is it that you would want in a Double Cab / Single Cab type of 4WD vehicle and how much money will you pay for it in India?

I mean weight / wheelbase / approach and departure angles / engine power to weight ratio / torque / transmission and axle ratio configuration / ground clearance / suspension configuration / brakes / preference for double cab or single cab / platform style / mechanical and styling upgrade options etc. I am starting with two attributes as given: 1) BS4. 2) White number plate.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS: Dear Moderators - will appreciate if you could hive this post off as a separate thread in the 4*4 section of the forum.

Dear DB Sir,

Thanks for asking these questions and hope our responses will materialize into a new vehicle sooner. Glad I happened to login at right time after a long period. My responses below would be primarily for recreational/offroading/practical professional usage and not for commercial usage. I beleive the present 3.0L engine model serves the commercial market well.

1. Weight: The Xenon at present is pretty front heavy (especially if its not used for loading) and prolong usage tends the front to buckle a bit. Also I guess probably for the same reason struggles a lot while reversing a steep slope. I had to shift to 4L in few instances as the Xenon just could't pull itself back. I have heard this feedback from a new Xenon 3.0L owner too.

2. Length: The load bed of both Single (6ft ?) & Double cab (5ft) would be too long and most of the time is unused. This increases the overall length to close to 16+ft. It would be good to reduce the length by about 1.5-2 ft. This will also reduce the departure angle.

3. Approach and Departure angles: Xenon is pretty badly placed on both these aspects. The length will address the departure angle to an extent, but the bumper needs to be modified to increase the approach angle.

4. Breakover angle: The rear overhang reduces the breakover angle. A reduced length and increased GC should increase this aspect.

5. Engine power to weight ratio: Xenon XT's 2.2 Ltr engine is pretty well placed on this quarter. With more reduction in weight this could get even better.

6. Transmission and axle ratio configuration: The gear ratio may need to be tweaked as the 2nd gear is bit tad.

7. Ground clearance: Due to sheer lenght of the wheelbase the practical usage of 200mm ground clearance is very low. However I am not sure how this can be reduced due to overall length of the vehicle. Probably one way to address this would be through better designed positioning of Gearbox, exhaust pipes, U clamp & bolt, Suspension/shock mounts, and engine bay. The engine and gear box skid plates often reduce the actual GC.

8. Suspension configuration: The front suspension should be raised a bit, while rear should get independent suspension instead of leaf springs. The leaf springs are too bouncy especially when unloaded. You can refer to Ford Raptor's design model. I had shared an image of the same in one of the thread.

9. Brakes: This needs improvement, preferably disk on all wheels or bigger drums atleast. The ABS & EBD are good, but not sufficient enough at high speeds. Not a major change required though.

10. Preference for double cab or single cab: I personally do not see much of usage for a single cab for non-commercial requirement, so double cab would be more preferred.

11. Platform Style: None required, the present platform is impressive.

12. Mechanical and styling upgrade options:

1. The wheel arch's should be broader to accomodate bigger tires.
2. The rear seats incline should be increased.
3. The space under the rear seats should contain storage box (at least as accessory) to store off road equipments like towe rope, jack, puncture kit, pump, cleaning kit, etc.
4. The front bumper should be replaced with the one from Tuff Truck design and Winch can be made optional accessory.
5. The snorkel from Tuff Truck design can also be made optional accessory.
6. The headlights should be upgraded with projector lamp and DRL
7. The wipers should have an additional speed.
8. The dash board from the new model (with integrated navigation and double din system) for South Africa should suffice.

If all the above changes can be incorporated at 13-15 lakhs onroad, then Xenon has a better chance of succeding.

[Tgo]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

(well, here goes for the second time, let me start by asking). .

Dear all 4*4 enthusiasts - what is it that you would want in a Double Cab / Single Cab type of 4WD vehicle and how much money will you pay for it in India?

I mean weight / wheelbase / approach and departure angles / engine power to weight ratio / torque / transmission and axle ratio configuration / ground clearance / suspension configuration / brakes / preference for double cab or single cab / platform style / mechanical and styling upgrade options etc. I am starting with two attributes as given: 1) BS4. 2) White number plate.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS: Dear Moderators - will appreciate if you could hive this post off as a separate thread in the 4*4 section of the forum.

Dear BD Sir,

An absolute answer to your question is very very difficult to give as everyone including me will start telling what to add/subtract/multiply and divide on the current Xenon. I'm trying really hard, here goes:

For my SINGLE CAB Configuration
Mainly to cater to the buyers looking forward to build their own off-road vehicle. The CAb has to be a Space-cab for added convenience of lockable storage it has to offer.

weight: 1600 kg

wheelbase: 2500 mm

approach and departure angles: 38 and 25 from factory. 45 and 35 after removing factory fit bumpers. Idea is to give a margin which can increase these angles by removing the factory fit front and rear bumpers so that after market ones can be installed.

engine power to weight ratio: 85 bhp/tonne

torque: 250 Nm @ 1400-1800 rpm

transmission and axle ratio configuration: No Idea sir.

ground clearance: 200 mm

suspension configuration: IFS (F) Leaf (Rear) with Leaf (F & R) optional

brakes: All Disc (No doubts about that)

platform style: Body On Ladder

mechanical and styling upgrade options: Hard/Soft Top, Roll cage Mounting Points, Lockable Differentials, Loading bay management options (nets, tonneau cover (hard/soft), bike rack, Openable Rear window to access the loading bay, Tow Hook for trailers, Deck liner with drain holes, auxiliary switches pre-wired, winch mounting points.

Money willing to spend: 8 Lacs on Road

For my DOUBLE CAB Configuration
Mainly to cater to the buyers looking for a highway warrior which can handle rough terrain and a bit of off-roading with comfort for 5 occupants.

weight: 2300 kg

wheelbase: 2750 mm

approach and departure angles: 35 and 30 from factory.

engine power to weight ratio: 85 bhp/tonne

torque: 250 Nm @ 1400-1800 rpm

transmission and axle ratio configuration: No Idea sir.

ground clearance: 200 mm

suspension configuration: IFS (F) Leaf (Rear) with options for different spring rate/dampers at the rear.

brakes: All Disc (No doubts about that)

platform style: Body On Ladder

mechanical and styling upgrade options: Hard Top, Roll cage Mounting Points, Loading bay management options (nets, tonneau cover (hard/soft), braces), bike rack, Openable Rear window to access the loading bay, Tow Hook for trailers, Deck liner with drain holes, GPS navigation, projector headlamps, upto 2 auxiliary switch wiring pre-installed, somewhat manza like recline angle for the rear bench, Storage under seats, ABS, Airbags, Hill Descent-Depart, cruise control, parking sensors, rear view camera instead of IRVM optional.

Money willing to spend: 12 Lacs on Road

My preference would be the double cab version.

[Kandisa]

My humble requirements, few of which have already been mentioned.
1. 2nd row seat in dual cab should be modified to accommodate three adults comfortably. The C pillar can be shifted backwards a bit to allow the recline.
2. Rear overhang, the shorter the better within possible limits.
3. A manual 4x4 shift will be a boon.
4. GC apporx 220. Stock tires should be of at least one up-size.
5. On exterior side, the front look may be modified from the Grande to something a bit more muscular like the Tuff truck concept.
6. Both the 3L & 2.2L options should be kept side by side (with BS4 & white plate registration). For a 4WD dual cab, OTR price should be approx 9L (for 3L) and 12.5 - 13L (for 2.2L)

Most importantly, the products should be more visible and more accessible. There should be some willingness from TATA to promote this genre of vehicle in India itself, considering the home country also as a promising market. I was unable to get a test drive of the 3L dual cab after repeated follow ups for last four months.

[AVR]

Hello Mr. Behram,

You may remember I mentioned on another thread about a very happy test drive with the Xenon 3.0 and was planning to buy one this Diwali. But I didn't since a few things hold me back.

1) Too long for a daily use vehicle. I believe the wheelbase is longer than the Safari also. Ideally should be shorter in both length and wheelbase. This may possibly improve the break-over angle too. An alternative that might be useful is to keep the same length and wheelbase but extend the double-cab to offer some space behind the rear seat. That would be awesome!
2) Rear seat comfort. The almost vertical rear-seat back is an issue. Am not even sure if we can alter it aftermarket since there is no space behind it and any alteration would be at the cost of legroom by moving it forward. Honestly, Tata vehicles are known for great space and rear comfort. The Xenon is a definite aberration to that. Also, I would be moving from a Safari to a Xenon so it would be tough to explain the drastic drop in rear-seat comfort to the family!
3) The Tuff-truck looks good but the current version is still a very good-looking vehicle so not so important
4) Improved interiors. Some recent pics of a Xenon from a South-east Asian motor show had swankier interiors
5) Safety features: ABS in the 3.0 (optional?), Airbags?
6) Manual 4wd option. Doubtful since TML doesn't offer that in any other vehicle either
7) Keep the 8.4L on-road price for the 3.0 4x4 and hopefully make it BS4. I think that's a decent price.
8) If there's an actual intention to enhance the Xenon, do let us know so we know there's something at the end of the tunnel. If this is a theoretical exercise, I probably want a million more things for a lesser price

Cheers,
Adi

[jaysmokesleaves]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

(well, here goes for the second time, let me start by asking). .

Dear all 4*4 enthusiasts - what is it that you would want in a Double Cab / Single Cab type of 4WD vehicle and how much money will you pay for it in India?

I mean weight / wheelbase / approach and departure angles / engine power to weight ratio / torque / transmission and axle ratio configuration / ground clearance / suspension configuration / brakes / preference for double cab or single cab / platform style / mechanical and styling upgrade options etc. I am starting with two attributes as given: 1) BS4. 2) White number plate.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS: Dear Moderators - will appreciate if you could hive this post off as a separate thread in the 4*4 section of the forum.

HI DB !!

Firstly lets hope TML is more liberal with its budget than Mahindra was with the Thar.
My Safari is 6.5yrs old now. The Xenon is very tempting except for a few things -

• Need atleast 150bhp with 40NM torque at lower rpm to improve driveability(urban/rural). Reliable niggle free engine.
• Wheelbase - seems ok but the rear bench is impractical for urban humans, as pointed out by Steeroid. Please add proper usable bench seats at a comfortable angle.
• Track width is perfect
• Rear overhang needs to reduce. Approach and especially departure angles need to improve.
• Fuel tank protection or repositioning.
• 4x4 with low range and LSD is already availble, dont remove it from the specs.
• Ground clearance between the wheelbase is good but the front needs to improve.
• The intercooler needs to be moved up, over head maybe below the bonnet.
• Make the Alternator a little more robust with higher amperage. Would be nice if the alternator sat a little higher in the engine bay like the Tavera.
• 17" rims.
• Turning radius improvements.
• Factory fitted center tow hook at the rear.. (atleast optional). The Prado style hook one and not the Scorpio one.
• Make accessories for the Xenon easily available. Most dealerships are unable to order anything as displayed on the website for Storme & Xenon.
• Steering and front suspension minus niggles, with the hope that they can hold their alignment for 10k kms under rough use. It does hold good on the Toyotas for 10k kms easily under rough use.
• A reduction in vehicle weight.
• ABS and airbags as seperate options. One should be able to only order the airbags option.

Thanks and wish you all the very best with your project.
Looking forward to a fruitful outcome.
Cheers.
Jay

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

(well, here goes for the second time, let me start by asking). .

Dear all 4*4 enthusiasts - what is it that you would want in a Double Cab / Single Cab type of 4WD vehicle and how much money will you pay for it in India?


Behram Dhabhar

With two Xenon engines to chose from and two body styles, what are our options?

You know the short-comings of the production version of the Thar. We have not been shy telling you our opinions of that. So, there is not much to say that you already don't know and probably already have worked out for yourself. But, PLEASE!!!! let this puppy climb hills! Seems to me a vehicle can have low end grunt and a tall highway gear. Don't know why we have to accept one to the exclusion of the other.

B.D., you are going to have to chop the length way back on this guy to make it sporty and to make it driveable in narrow Indian marketplaces and roads for white board drivers.

So, you are going to need a new bed of 4 to 5.5 feet max. One option is to make a sporty bed whose width and side walls are inboard of the rear wheels, giving it a sort of retro look. Below are some pics of the 1997 Ford F-150 showing such a bed option. A customer could also opt for a standard bed with more width for commercial use.

[Parm]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

(well, here goes for the second time, let me start by asking). .

Dear all 4*4 enthusiasts - what is it that you would want in a Double Cab / Single Cab type of 4WD vehicle and how much money will you pay for it in India?

I mean weight / wheelbase / approach and departure angles / engine power to weight ratio / torque / transmission and axle ratio configuration / ground clearance / suspension configuration / brakes / preference for double cab or single cab / platform style / mechanical and styling upgrade options etc. I am starting with two attributes as given: 1) BS4. 2) White number plate.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS: Dear Moderators - will appreciate if you could hive this post off as a separate thread in the 4*4 section of the forum.

When Santa Claus himself asks about what gift we want, that means it will be delivered!

Dear Beloved Bawa Ji, I drive a 2010 Toyota Hilux double cab 2.7 ltr petrol engine with 158 Bhp. I have covered 250,000kms in 4 years.

It is simply "Indestructible", it goes where ever I want it to go and where ever I want to take...it just goes.

No wonder it is used widely in almost all conflicts around the world and even military forces use it too.

I would like to request that if you can deliver a Xenon with 50% of Hilux's capabilities and reliability at 10-12 lakhs, it will do wonders.

keep Hilux as benchmark while developing Xenon. Below is a photo of my Hilux.

[torquecurve]

BD sir

Something like the Sierra 'Redefined'. Basically a SWB with the 2.2 Dicor/Varicor, an agressive looking front (even the good old sierra front), which is removable (aftermarket for offroaders). 17 Inch 215 AT tyres. Body on Ladder Frame (derived from the Safari Platform)
Will appeal to the 'Guntha Mantri' junta as well as the Diehard offroaders.- Sales
If priced right this can also be the Ecosport killer.

The other option is almost in line with what everyone has already said about the Xenon.

[Tgo]

Originally Posted by torquecurve

BD sir

Something like the Sierra 'Redefined'.

Thanks for bringing it up mate.

The Sierra is one vehicle that could be resurrected but the platform has to be in line with today's safety standards. Going by how DB Sir injected some life into the (dying) Jeep platform it wouldn't be difficult to fathom if the Sierra is on the roads soon.

[maddy42]

Originally Posted by Parm

When Santa Claus himself asks about what gift we want, that means it will be delivered!

I would like to request that if you can deliver a Xenon with 50% of Hilux's capabilities and reliability at 10-12 lakhs, it will do wonders.

keep Hilux as benchmark while developing Xenon. Below is a photo of my Hilux.

Parm i envy your ride. Its just gorgeous.

DB sir: One request. Make this into a platform to start different models on.
Some of the models can be listed here.
1) Lifestyle Dual Cab
2) Lifestyle dual cab luxury with all the Jazz in it.
3) Heavy duty single cab for serious hauling.
4) Heavy duty dual cab.
5) LWB model just to suit some segment which is missed out.

Please treat the customers of 1 and 2 different from 3, 4 and 5 as you know what Indica did to the Tata brand due to the mix.

Please keep a reliable F150 or the Hilux as your benchmark. No shoddy plastics or body work and welds please, let this be the coming of Age of TATA.

Let all the safety features come in the models by default. Airbags, ABS are some basic features.

Lastly make it reliable, you know this segment from the Thar. Keep the price juicy below 10lacs. You do have the entire SE asia and the African market where you could sell this product. Make the Made in India hold some value rather than a Jugaad.

I believe the timelines we could expect a model sometime in early 2017. Till then can you get your marketing dept to sell some current version Xenons?

Cheers.
Maddy

[rosewarrior_101]

Dear DB,

Firstly, let me start off by saying that I do not know the fancy technical terms for the various issues that you want a feed back on. But, I have been an army officer for 18 years and driven in all kinds of terrain and I have been a(n) (un)fortunate owner of a Tata Xenon XT 4x4 for almost a year now.

With that as a short intro let me start off with what I would want in my vehicle. I am basing these points on the existing Xenon XT 4x4:

- Starting from the front, the approach and departure angles need to be improved. The rear overhang especially, severely, limits the departure angles.

- Also the Xenon seems to have a forward slope. What I mean here is that the ground clearance at the rear is higher than in front. This gives a forward slope to the load bed in the rear and it is a pain to clean out the load bed after even a short rain, as all the water accumulates towards the cabin.

- The bonnet definitely needs a hydraulic strut like the safari. This is especially the case with the 2.2L model, as everytime I have taken it in for service the mechanic sees a 2.2L engine, and after working on it, simply pulls the bonnet down, thereby bending the entire thing.

- The gear ratios seem to be fine. But everytime I have taken the xenon on a steep incline on a paved road, the engine seems to labour even at first gear in 2H, an incline I think a gypsy would handle easily. The 4H and 4L ratios seem to be fine.

- The xenon also seems to have a problem with the wheel alignment, a short off roading trip seems to throw it out of alignment and there is uneven wear on the front tyres. My xenon is 10 months old and I have done 10k+ km but I have had to get the wheel alignment done at least four times already.

- Coming to the cabin, The steering needs to be re-designed. The Xenon xt comes with two small buttons for the horn. In today's environment wherein even the cheapest car comes with a full pad for the horn, this is an aberration. It gets especially difficult when you are off- roading and left searching for the horn switch.

- The shape and positioning of the steering also needs a re-look. In its present state, the lower panel of switches, the 4x4 selector switch, the demister switch and the headlight adjuster switch are not visible as the arms of the steering come in the way and one has to grope for it blindly or bend down and look for it.

- The centre console between the two seats could also be improved by giving it something like in the Endavour or the Prado.

- The centre instrument console could be re-designed. The present one looks as if it has been taken out from a tata truck. Even the Nano seems to have a better instrument console. The music system is a very low end one and does not even have a USB port. Seriously, I sometimes wonder in which century are the Tata designers living ??

- The AC vents are pretty ineffective. The Safari seemed to have a beeter design. Seriously, I think TML could have been better off, simply extending the body of the safari and giving the load body at the rear in place of the boot like what has been done with the Scorpio Getaway.

- The problems with the rear seat are well documented and definitely are not suitable for adults sitting in for a long drive. A certain more rearward recline would have been appreciated. Also, the leg room at the rear is severely restricted. Tata Cars always used to have ample space all around, a characteristic I absolutely loved. But the same is not the case with the Xenon. Only a child could sit comfortably in the rear, the leg room is so very restricted.

- The space provided behind the rear seat is not useful. Also the rear seat should have complete folding, as in the Safari, so that the luggage area can be increased in case required.

- The rear load bed offers a lot of scope for customization but unfortunately, TML has not exploited this. There are hardly any accessories available for the rear bed. Amazon.com is full of various accessories for the rear bed from bike racks to cargo bars to rollback covers to soft-tops to even camper mounts. But, these are not readily available in India and the import is pretty expensive.

- Besides the above, I would definite want a heavy duty towing hook at the rear, and a front like the tough truck concept designed for the Australian market including the towing hooks and the winch.
I do hope we get to see these changes in the near future and Tata Motors is amenable to giving the existing Xenon owners an option to incorporate these changes to their vehicles at a reasonable cost, especially the winch and the rear tow hook.

That was pretty exhuastive from my side, but I am sure there could be some more improvements.
Regards
Rosewarrior_101

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

(well, here goes for the second time, let me start by asking). . Dear all 4*4 enthusiasts - what is it that you would want in a Double Cab / Single Cab type of 4WD vehicle and how much money will you pay for it in India?

So you're done with Sumo Extreme and this is your new project! Am I right?