[reihem]

Originally Posted by pedrolourenco

Until I buy a 4x4, I'm using this "off-roader". It's not 4x4 but has a 6082 KW engine, 7 winches, 2 hydraulic power steering units and spends it's time exclusively "off-road"

If wading depth was the bench mark of success you would win hands down sir !

[dhanushs]

Well, even I had this problem of why Manufacturers don't sell 4WD or AWDs in India, while similar models have it abroad. Did you know Subaru has ONLY 4WD or AWD models selling in Australia?!.

However, think about it. 99.9% of the roads and terrain in India are accessible by 2WD. For the minuscule percentage of places which need 4x4, are explored not for daily life but as a lifestyle. Even in my Village in the hills, where 4x4 Mahindra Jeeps used to be the norm, 99% of the roads now don't need 4x4.

Four wheeling is basically a lifestyle in India. While there is a wafer-thin market for lifestyle vehicles in India, I don't think that justifies for the manufacturers to launch AWD versions of regular road-going cars, especially since 4WD systems might need more maintanance and cars are less fuel efficient.

[Oreen]

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

Yes Bolero LX 4x4 is still available with m2dicr engine. AC and heater are not factory fitted, so you have get them installed from outside. You won't see it on website, but if you can pester the dealer you will be able to get one. However don't expect any discount as these are made on order only and there will be a waiting period of 2 to 3 months.

If it is being custom built, can't one plonk at least a Thar engine in it? In its current state of tune, it makes 70 bhp and 195 nm of torque. At least 100 bhp would have made it a little more desirable.

[silverado]

Originally Posted by pedrolourenco

Without supply how do you get demand.
No one is asking for development. We are just asking them to sell stuff they have already developed. Or incorporate the technology they have developed for one vehicle, in another vehicle on the same or similar platform.

What I am trying to say here is , for 4WD to be easily accessible to more people it needs to be affordable and be able to do most things that a normal compact SUV does.( I am using compact SUV as an example here ).

This way someone who is trying to own just 1 vehicle, can enjoy benefits a 4wd vehicle gives. Until they do this, 4WD will always remain a Niche segment in our country.

Companies are not just going to supply and wait for people to react, I am sure they have methods to survey their end customer and know in advance what they need to bring to table.

I am not sure if its easy to incorporate 4Wd in to existing vehicles without properly developing and testing stuff.

[BlackPearl]

Originally Posted by Oreen

If it is being custom built, can't one plonk at least a Thar engine in it? In its current state of tune, it makes 70 bhp and 195 nm of torque. At least 100 bhp would have made it a little more desirable.

That will be an aftermarket modification as Mahindra will not put the Thar engine in the Bolero. Mahindra will never put that engine back in Bolero because it will cannibalise Scorpio sales.

[Shubhendra]

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

That will be an aftermarket modification as Mahindra will not put the Thar engine in the Bolero. Mahindra will never put that engine back in Bolero because it will cannibalise Scorpio sales.

That precisely is the reason for Mahindra to stop selling Bolero 4x4 with flat roof.
In early 2000 M&M launched Bolero GLX 4x4 with PS, Power windows, AC, tinted glass etc. Only thing they had to upgrade later was engine (NEF series engine which was doing duty in Bolero Storm and later plonked into Thar CRDe).
To save Scorpio and Thar CRDe they intentionally killed such a beautiful product along with Scorpio LX/S4 4x4.

What an irony that Thar is based on a Bolero which is discontinued now

[ringoism]

Great discussion here, good points from various perspectives, and very near to our own dilemma at present, as we consider replacing the 18-year-old Marshal 4x4...

I'm a fairly pragmatic guy and honestly often wonder whether if we lived just an hour south, outside the snow-belt, if I'd bother owning a 4x4. Yes, maintenance has cost us more with the 4x4 (in the six extra cross-joints, the extra driveshaft yoke)... yes, the FE / performance is also less due to weight mainly. 4x2 does give buyers a lot more options.

But we do not live an hour south, and we are a family, and winters like this one see snow almost constantly, and we're on a low budget, about all the choice we've got is the Bolero LX 4x4 (a bit of a pain on account of having to retrofit A/C, and being special order only, and having a quite rough suspension); And the Gurka 5-door Explorer (a bit of a pain on account of spare-parts supply; Being so rare, I've never even seen one, though it's there in the company literature).

About two decades ago you could get the Armada / Armada Grand which had factory-fitted A/C and P/S, the latter also with the rather strong 2.5L Peugeot, a highway-worthy 5-speed, efficient and trouble-free manual-select Borg-Warner transfer case, and power windows. That's the sort of thing I'd like to be able to buy new at reasonable price in 2019. I guess the S4 Scorpio would be the closest thing.

As far as serious offroading goes, my general thought is that if it's going to take longer to get someplace in a car than it would on foot, it really makes more sense to just walk (unless trying to get a hundred or more kilos of camping gear to a favorite site... but how many of us have ever actually done that / realistically will ever do that???). I realize it's a sport, with its fun-factor. And people often are willing to spend more for that sport.

Originally Posted by sdg4wheels

I am pretty sure everyone feels WOW and gaze at the machine in amazement once they see a proper off road vehicle tackling ROADS (which is not there). But then again the mind wins over the heart for most of the people to put their hard earned money into a machine which will be seldom used.....Hope that mass people come to realise the true potential of a 4X4 someday. India is all about masses and people like us constitute a meagre percentile in the realm of things.

In general "out there" margins tend to be small on most products and profit comes in volume in this context. But “true potential” for doing what, exactly??? Just a few offroad events? In the U.S. a majority of 4x4 SUV owners never actually use the 4x4... one of the biggest maintenance issues there is rust & dried-out grease & seals in unused hubs/axles. SUV's there were/are the sexier alternative to mini-vans, but in “real life” seldom more useful for most owners.

Originally Posted by fine69

I disagree. There are 4x4s starting from as low as 8-9 lakhs and go all the way upto 30-35 lakhs (mainstream 4x4s only), what more would a consumer want? I personally think that if one wishes to own a proper 4x4 or even AWDs (without low range) then its a great time to be in India.

Want a Jeep - get the Thar, Want a cheap offroader for weekends - Get a used Thar or used Gypsy, Want a relatively cheap 4x4 that can do daily duties, highway runs as well as weekend offroading - Get any from the long list of.....Scorpio, Storme, VCross etc. Have more money - Get the Fortuner or Endeavour or MUX or Pajero Sport Some more - Go crazy with 4x4 aftermarket mods that can make these vehicles unbreakable (well, almost)

Offroading is also used a little loosely. If one wishes to do a 3-4 week Ladakh trip then they don't really need a heavy 4x4 with low range. In fact Duster would be a great vehicle given its ride quality for a terrain like Ladakh's. AWDs like Duster/Compass are superb vehicles for a regular Joe who would only need AWD for their road trips.

You don't need AWD or 4x4 even for Ladakh unless you're getting well off the beaten path. Even in Spiti, where roads are much worse, commercial taxi-wallahs use Sumo Gold / Spacio / Traveler more than anything. Ground clearance is the main thing.

Thar/Gypsy are 3-door, not very family-friendly.
Older pre-owned Scorpio/Storme is probably going to be a maintenance headache, and the risk of the expensive electronically-actuated 4x4 selector motor/circuit going bad is fairly high.
The rest mentioned are just too pricey for us.

Originally Posted by silverado

...it remains a dream to own one and justify that ownership. How many people who own a 4WD use it as their only car? Lot of people have discussed about JIMNY. There was and still is a lot of excitement around it.It would have got more people in to 4WD scene I believe.... there is simply no Demand for 4wd vehicles to make business case for companies to develop them.

We have one as our only car, and it works well in our context, but we almost never have to do highway travel, and I do my own maintenance/repair usually.

Originally Posted by RaviK

"Why get a maintenance heavy, tyre eating, low performance vehicle when the regular one does the work 9 out of 10 times, the cost factor doesn't work out". And he was right ! IIRC there were very few 4*4s, in all the Mahindras around us.

Yes, he was right, excepting those who more often “need” one. And the bit about tyre wear - “live” front axles do maintain alignment much better than IFS, as I think BlackPearl noted. Performance did take a big hit comparing 4x4/4x2's back in the days of 60bhp Commanders, but with modern vehicles there's enough power to spare that it's not really an issue.

Originally Posted by 2himanshu

liked Scorpio S10 and wanted a 4wd (we do a lot of cycling expeditions at distant places) but dealer refused and tried to persuade us by giving some lame reasons (they had 2wd in stock), we had to settle as we were in hurry. The second time my friend wanted an XUV500 AWD and we had to literally arm wrestle the dealer to get it .
I will also like to add that some minivan like Tempo Traveller should give an AWD option that would be great for guys who like to go on long expeditions, it is surely more comfortable than SUVs.

This is the thing... doesn't seem to be much of a marketing push. Which is fine if people really don't need it, and kind of bad if they actually intend to use four-wheel traction.

Originally Posted by pedrolourenco

Without supply how do you get demand. There is no data published about the queries for a 4WD variant. Also a lot of people want a 4WD but don't ask because they know that it is not available. No one is asking for development. We are just asking them to sell stuff they have already developed.

I don't know how many here would know that in Japan there were 4wd variants of the Maruti 800, the Omni van, the Suzuki Carry (friend in Canada has a 25-year-old one). I guess the whole certification process here is expensive and doesn't pay back if the sales are small. quote=gkveda;4548772]

I will give a perspective from end user. We are middle class country. We value our hard earned money and will like to put the money on a vehicle that is used for utility purpose and "Need" and not "pleasure".
...With the above mindset, we (read Urban and plain land citizens)do not have a reason to go for off-roading. Therefore, we think 4*4 is NOT a NECESSITY.

Coming to Hill-side people, they find off-roading and hill climb/descent as their part of life NEED and NOT as Pleasure AT ALL. Hence, if we see the stats, major sale of the 4*4 would be around in hilly areas.[/quote]

Right.

Originally Posted by GTO

I'm going to take a contrarian view. 4x4s & AWDs constitute perhaps 0.1% of car sales in India. Despite that, we have a good number of options, spanning across budgets. When I got into offroading, there were broadly 2 options = Classic or Gypsy. Both impossible for daily use. Today, you have a lot more.

You must've been into it pretty early, GTO... the Commander 5-door was there at least as far back as the mid-90's... Armada NGCS was disc-brake, A/C, P/S from year 1999.

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

2. Suzuki should have launched the Jimny in India. Maruti can sell everything in India. If the barebones Gypsy with its back-breaking ride quality could sell so many, I am sure there would be a lot of takers for the Jimny.

They couldn't sell the Grand Vitara much.

Originally Posted by pedrolourenco

Going by the number of threads and posts on TBHP, it's quite clear that 4x4 Offroading is quite popular and increasing day by day. But when it comes to buying a 4x4 vehicle there doesn't seem to be much choice in India. Some may argue that there are plenty of choices but if you look carefully, most options are the expensive (30L & above SUV's) which the majority of us cannot afford and even if we can afford, we are unlikely to take those vehicles off-roading.

Now some will say that there is no market for these vehicles so manufacturers wont launch. Well if you don't sell them how do you expect people to buy.

I mean, it's kind of crazy that the Bolero LX is supposed to be “government only” sale... when so many normal people have/need/want them in the hills. I confess that the absence of marketing seems very strange. Maybe M&M wants to move people to higher variants (with EMI or whatever), which they do make more profit on.

-Eric

[RaviK]

Originally Posted by ringoism

..“live” front axles do maintain alignment much better than IFS, as I think BlackPearl noted ..

You reminded me an interesting habit popular during those days. I recall a few times, when a 4*4 Mahindra driver would start fiddling with the front wheel hub caps (that's what it appeared to me as a teenager), before going through the rough terrain/when the vehicle got stuck.

As I understood later, many of the 4*4 owners would keep the front wheels detached from the transmission (in interest of fuel economy I guess), and make them "live" only as per the requirement (not sure it was the best idea to get your hands dirty right in the middle of the desert!)

[SnakemanJohny]

Originally Posted by silverado

How many people who own a 4WD use it as their only car?

Lot of people have discussed about JIMNY. There was and still is a lot of excitement around it.It would have got more people in to 4WD scene I believe.

I am one such ! I have only used Mahindra/Willys, Nissan Jonga (original petrol) and now Gypsy as my daily ride, except for the Yezdi motorcycle in youth. We own an Alto, but I almost never touch it.
I have to stick with the low power Gypsy because there is no alternative in that segment -- low-priced basic 2WD/4WD option with buildable/addable features ... everything from cabin and sedan seating to winches, bumpers, free-wheel hubs and locking diffs. Never mind the awful suspension -- you can drive a leaf-springer with one or two broken leaves. Too many coil-springers seen lying nose down at the Second Hooghly Bridge toll approach when they started putting rumbler strips there ! Also in the monsoon floodings, when craters are submerged, hence depth unknown.
JIMNY Long Wheel Base (LWB) would be a good alternative with the 1.6l engine and modern suspension plus instrumentation. But apart from displaying it in motor-shows every few years, Maruti-Suzuki have done nothing .
It is strange that they are giving up such a big chunk of the market (defence forces), for not updating the obsolete Gypsy !

There is still no real SUV in India, in my opinion, for general civilians. A vehicle with part-time 4WD, with enough power to tow, in both soft and hard top versions as the Safari military edition will be.
Sumo had brought out the 4x4 with bigger wheels and tyres, but only used as military ambulance (saw only one civilian version, owned by one NE hill state government).

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by RaviK

...many of the 4*4 owners would keep the front wheels detached from the transmission (in interest of fuel economy I guess), and make them "live" only as per the requirement

One definition I found: "A live axle, sometimes called a solid axle, is a type of beam axle suspension system that uses the drive shafts that transmit power to the wheels to connect the wheels laterally so that they move together as a unit. A live axle consists of a central differential in a single housing that also contains the driveshafts that connect the differential to the driven wheels."

So it could be said it is "live" by nature of design, not whether the hubs are locked in and everything's actually running. Even a parked Marshal 4x4 has two live axles!

Originally Posted by SnakemanJohny

There is still no real SUV in India, in my opinion, for general civilians. A vehicle with part-time 4WD, with enough power to tow, in both soft and hard top versions... Sumo had brought out the 4x4 with bigger wheels and tyres, but only used as military ambulance (saw only one civilian version, owned by one NE hill state government).

A rather precise definition of an SUV - I like it, but according to that filter there would hardly be any SUV's available on the entire planet... U.S. included! Though in truth, the Gurkha might fit it and I wish it were not being so overlooked. So the Extreme has the 140bhp engine everyone here has been crying for and had now better go out and book. But is it actually going to do its job better, for the extra four lacs or whatever?

The thread started with an appeal for a relatively basic, affordable 4x4. As mentioned, manufacturers do fiddle with things and kill good products for marketing purposes, to our loss - 5 speed M800, Crde Bolero, maybe the S4 Scorpio, etc. But the aforementioned 2000 year Bolero GLX 4x4 (or for that matter Armada Grand I referred to) with PW/AC/PS etc, would have been pretty upscale in its time, to be compared with today's premium variants, not the lower/middle option some of us seem to be asking for.

Asking for but not buying: Apart from the Thar there just weren't many takers when they've been available. In all my years in the hills, I've only seen one or two 4x4 Sumos in non-governmental / non-army use. Scorpio Getaway? Gurkha? Equally rare. Even the S4 4wd - I do see a few around, but how many did they sell overall? As said earlier, if Tbhpians value them, well, we're not "normal" - family members may prefer other more practical daily comforts/conveniences at similar price points. As also noted early in the thread, we LIKE these (and like talking about what we want), but when it comes to actually laying down the money it's a different story.

Re: SUMO's I think I posted photos of some non-Army ones I've seen in the SUMO 4x4 thread. I'd consider one, but not sure they're still available post-BSIV and next to impossible to find pre-owned. Unless TATA is seriously overcharging the Army for them, it's likely they've lost money on the variant - nobody seems to want one.

End of the day, yes, the manufacturers COULD sell more with proper marketing, but then, if we're just posing anyway, we can just do as the masses do with some cheap 4x4 stickers / badges on our 2WD variants (or in H.P., on our bikes !)... Perfect then, we get the "image" we want, while still being environmentally / financially friendlier, not dragging around a hundred or more kilos of unused extra mass everywhere we go. When you think about it, that's no less honest than pretending at any other level. Hmmm...

So... the minivan or the SUV??? And does the 2wd Gurkha Expedition really need a snorkel?

Granted there are times where a 4x4 can get you and your loved ones into some beautiful places you wouldn't have gone otherwise... we've experienced this ourselves, and for some they may be "worth it" even for those few isolated occasions.

For the rest, it could all be an interesting study in psychology: Why do we attempt to create "images" for ourselves? What's the value in it, as we see it, and what does our particular choice say about us?

-Eric

[SnakemanJohny]

Right,ringoism, in our childhood every hill and plantation vehicle used to be a 4x4 because Willys/Mahindra and Land Rover were not available in 2WD. Only later, when Mahindra started making 2WD 'Jeeps' most people changed to them, as 4WD was not required most of the time, and lower cost of vehicle plus fuel and maintenance costs won out .

So now we have 2WD taxis in Darjeeling, Sikkim, and most other hill regions slipping and sliding through mud and snow with full complement of passengers plus luggage on roof-racks ! But Land Rover taxis in Darjeeling never bothered to remove the front drive, and ran on petrol, before the first petro-shock of the 1970s. Later, when disposal Jongas became the standard taxis, front drive was removed, and diesel engines were substituted.

Still later, Mahindra provided ready made solutions in the 4x2 Marshalls, Commanders, Armadas and Boleros and Scorpios. Somewhere in between came the SUMO, the giant people carrier, with tiny feet like the famed wrestlers. So who needs 4WD any more ?
Except some die-hard fans and adventurers ?

Other than the armed forces, forest departments, even ONGC and other companies, construction firms etc. working off-road, in mud, sand, snow and rocky areas tend mostly to favour the 2WD SUVs. So what if we get stuck ? We can always get another to pull us out -- that is the mentality !

As for my definition or FILTER, there are quite a few on the planet, but not many in India ! As I already said, TATA Storme military version would be one, JEEP Wrangler another.
The original Nissan PATROL, mostly made for the large 4WD markets of Australia and Africa, was made in short & long wheelbases (SWB & LWB), and hard as well as short tops. Of the four, the SWB soft-top was chosen to substitute the aging Willys of the Indian armed forces, and hence became the JONGA. Of course, Mahindra lobbied and came back with their Jeeps, and both served well till Jongas went obsolete and MM550s and Gypsies took their place.

To me the Landy Defender or the Nissan Patrol/Toyota LC were the ideal 4x4s, and wish the first was not discontinued, and the second/third, plus the Jeep Wrangler, had not become so sophisticated and costly !

Wish Datsun or Daihatsu came out with something slightly bigger and more powerful than the Gypsy/Jimny -- never mind if it came with single wiper on the right only, like the old FORD and WIllys !

[BlackPearl]

Originally Posted by RaviK

As I understood later, many of the 4*4 owners would keep the front wheels detached from the transmission (in interest of fuel economy I guess), and make them "live" only as per the requirement (not sure it was the best idea to get your hands dirty right in the middle of the desert!)

Yes, they are called Free Wheeling Hubs. I have them on my Bolero and once you are used to it you will remember to engage them before going into 4wd territory. Pics of the FWH from Lamda installed in my Bolero -

Originally Posted by ringoism

Granted there are times where a 4x4 can get you and your loved ones into some beautiful places you wouldn't have gone otherwise... we've experienced this ourselves, and for some they may be "worth it" even for those few isolated occasions.

For the rest, it could all be an interesting study in psychology: Why do we attempt to create "images" for ourselves? What's the value in it, as we see it, and what does our particular choice say about us?

-Eric

Well said. The companies are hell bent on ensuring that only the well heeled can get hold of 4x4s and build their images. The rest will have to buy 2nd world war tech vehicles if they want to buy 4x4s and that too after running behind the dealers and coaxing them to allot a vehicle that is not even mentioned on the website or brochure!

[DirtyDan]

All across the North of India you have these big bumps called the Himalayas. Really! I wouldn't kid you about a thing like this. They are hard to miss in fact.

The need for four wheel drive here is considerable. It is not a matter of "enthusiasm" or life style. It is a matter of practical need. It snows up here. There are slides, there are poor dirt/mud roads. Small delivery trucks and vehicles need four wheel drive. Many of the small vehicles that ply the roads between Dehradun and Mussoorie have, need, four wheel drive, for example. I expect this is true in many places in the Himalayas, in India.

It takes someone with a little vision like Behram Dhabhar to build and rearrange parts from an existing parts bin to feed a burgeoning life style segment. IMHO Maruti's Jimny would sell like japaties in India. A lack of imagination and an unwillingness to take risk seem to pervade Indian market analysts. Maruti, as an example, is willing to take only risks that appear more conventional, e.g. the debacle of the Maruti S-Cross. Maruti marketing would rather build cars that compete with each other and are very similar to each other as opposed to create something new like a 4X4 or AWD vehicle.

The new Jimny would sell decently in India, I think. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[RaviK]

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

Yes, they are called Free Wheeling Hubs...

Thanks , I wasn't aware that this practice is still alive

[ralto]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

All across the North of India you have these big bumps called the Himalayas. Really! I wouldn't kid you about a thing like this. They are hard to miss in fact.

Even on TBhp, I have seen lots of comments saying "India hardly has a terrain where 4x4's are needed".

Makes, me think, you MUST be kidding.

On a serious note though, there is huge neglect from the companies towards 4x4 and also people do not understand the importance/requirement of a proper 4x4. This comes from personal experience. After upgrading to a pseudo-SUV, I found out how it fares far worse than a humble ALTO, in the hills and that is when I realized that I should have gone for an AWD, if not a proper 4x4.