Confusion--Two Amps and five speakers!!

Autophile · 28th March 2006, 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by viper

Hey,

You can try Esoteric Audio, Kimber Kable and Stinger as well. Kimber is excellent but priced a bit on the higher side.

Viper

Kimber is not practical in cars...very thin sheathing...prone to cuts

kb100 · 28th March 2006, 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

The Alpine 545 is 300W rms at 12 V. That isn't extraordinarily higher than the 275 which is about 270W rms at 12V. Which is why your money is better spent on a cheaper 4-ch from Alpine. But if you are hell bent on spending the moolah on the 545 ($650, gosh), please go ahead.

For the system in concern, I think your total budget for cabling should be about 7000.

Breakup

1. 3 x RCA cables @ 1000 each: Rs. 3000
2. Power wiring kit incl fusing & dist block: Rs. 2000
3. Approx 15-20m speaker cabling @100/m: Rs. 2000

Don't waste money buying ridiculously expensive brands like Kimber. Let it be proportionate to the amount you're spending on your other gear.

Now Zats exactly what I wanted!! Thanks B&T

Quote:

Originally Posted by navin

I agree 200% with B&T.
Both Monster Jr. and Streewires are available for about Rs. 1200 per pair. It should suffice.

Kimber and co are a sheer waste in the car.
The prices B&T has given are spot on.

Thanks Navin

Now my earlier question - TWO different makes of two way COMPONENTS .. one rated at 93db ---- the other at 97db ... what should I make out of this??

Sideways · 28th March 2006, 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by kb100

Now Zats exactly what I wanted!! Thanks B&T

Thanks Navin

Now my earlier question - TWO different makes of two way COMPONENTS .. one rated at 93db ---- the other at 97db ... what should I make out of this??

Sujith,

Gunbir's nswered your question in post # 22.

rsjaurr · 28th March 2006, 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by kb100

Now my earlier question - TWO different makes of two way COMPONENTS .. one rated at 93db ---- the other at 97db ... what should I make out of this??

Kb100,its same for subw and speakers.97db spk will be lowder but not much.

navin · 29th March 2006, 11:23

oh no...Sam please read this post....gonna get technical! :-)

Most speaker measurements are part fiction and part fact just like the balance sheets of most publicly listed companies. :-) LOL

Saying a speaker is 97db sensitive (in volt terms) is a very small part of the story. I have seen speakers rated at 86db/1W/8ohms sound louder than a speaker rated at 90db/1W/8ohms. Why? Well it all depends on the techniques used in making these measurements. The IEC and AES have some guidelines for these but no fixed regulations.

This is why just as the publicly listed companies one reads through the reputation of the speaker company and this knowledge unfortunately is emprrical and changes as the company's management changes.

If Paul Klipsch says (ok said) his speaker was 103db/1W you believe him. If Mathew Polk says the same I dont nesscarily believe him unless the specs are independantly verified.

I am not saying MP is a bad designer but that in many cases his measurement techniques favour his speakers. Is this fair. Technically yes. Morally wel lets jsut say I'd buy a pair of Richard Vandersteen's speakers instead.

Now some claim that a speaker's votlage sensitivity should be the average across the audible frequency spectrum in an anechoic chamber at seas level at 25 deg C.... Now you know where the errors can creep in. (a) what is the correct audible spectrum and it is relavant (b) where does one get an anechoic chamber? (c) should it be measred in a 2pi space ot 4pi space...

This is what a John Atkinson of Stereophile article once said
"In general, my measured sensitivities are slightly low compared with those published by the speakers' manufacturers. Mostly, I believe this is due to the optimistic nature of published sensitivity specifications."

the whole article can be found here. http://www.stereophile.com/reference/99/index.html and funnily i have realised I dont realyl care for many speakers that are prefered/recommended by Stereophile. :-)

the present method most companies use it to pick 4 or 5 freq. point and take an average. this method is largely unchanged since the 1940s and I wonder why. With the advent of the PC any P4 based computer would be able to do analyse a more sophisticated mean of the freq. curve.

Picking arbitaray points on the freq scale leaves too much room of manupilation and error.

This link provides some simple explanations of the terms used for measureing loudspeakers. http://www.svconline.com/mag/avinsta...ing/index.html

back to the question asked. which speaker shoudl i choose 97db or 93db. I'd say listen to both. Then use your ears and what's between them.

DRA Labs makes a Loudspeaker Measuring System called MLSSA (pronouced Melissa) see what they say....http://www.mlssa.com/pdf/MLSSA-Brochure.pdf and BTW MLSSA is an industry standard. LEAP/LMS, CLIO, Calsod are for poorer souls like us DIYers.

kb100 · 29th March 2006, 11:56

WOW.... KOW-TOW@NAVIN

MODs... We need a KOW_TOW smiley badly!!!

Thanks Navin... very informative... !... and proves a few things I thought are right!

navin · 29th March 2006, 12:02

KB, What is a KOW_TOW?

mohit · 29th March 2006, 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by navin

KB, What is a KOW_TOW?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowtow

All you want to know ....with a pic

navin · 29th March 2006, 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by mohit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowtow

All you want to know ....with a pic

Sorry I was not clear i meant in conext of this forum. How do you want to KOW_TOW here? is there a particular graphic you desire? remember I am not so PC literate as you guys.

Vivekphadnis · 29th March 2006, 13:50

Navin, how different can anechoic chambers be? All they need is a room where sound reflections are kept to a minimum. Regarding measuring equipment I agree that some companies might skimp.

And what is the problem in measuring all voltages in the frequency spectrum instead of just 4 or 5 pts?

navin · 29th March 2006, 16:21

anechoic chambers are hardly different but how many speakers you hear tested in one? I know many reputed european brands that dont test their speakers in anechoic chambers.

Not that a AC is a requrement to produce good sounding speakers. If it were these good European brands would use one. but when you have so many variables in testing a speaker we have to rely on the speaker manufacturers reputation above most other parameters. just as you would rely on Infosys's balance sheet to be accurate than say Essar's.

Autophile · 29th March 2006, 16:42

Anechoic chambers are used by manufacturers as a controlled environment to develop the speakers.

In that controlled environment it is easy to monitor the final outcome by altering minute details in the loudspeaker design.

Don't worry much about anechoic chamber because none of us has listening rooms or cars designed like that.

Manufacturers measure sensitivity in different areas like freespace, halfspace, anaechoic chamber etc. generally with the difference of 1m between speaker and mic.

kb100 · 29th March 2006, 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by navin

Sorry I was not clear i meant in conext of this forum. How do you want to KOW_TOW here? is there a particular graphic you desire? remember I am not so PC literate as you guys.

Yes .. just like the hand clapping smiley here - there is one which shows the figure bending - If I remember right is is also available on Yahoo/msn will check and post one if I can.

It for sure can be used to acknowledge supremacy , as a salute , to pray, or at times even to Beg!!! :-) lol

jkdas · 29th March 2006, 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by kb100

GURUS... WHATS with the "DB" Pls??

DB 12yrs back when I was a teen was debonair

( the mag not the sub/tube thats making news here at ICE)

kb100 · 29th March 2006, 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkdas

DB 12yrs back when I was a teen was debonair

( the mag not the sub/tube thats making news here at ICE)

JK ...

... you read THAT????

psst: can we swap collections??

29th March 2006, 11:23	#35
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,198 Thanked: 9,302 Times	oh no...Sam please read this post....gonna get technical! :-) Most speaker measurements are part fiction and part fact just like the balance sheets of most publicly listed companies. :-) LOL Saying a speaker is 97db sensitive (in volt terms) is a very small part of the story. I have seen speakers rated at 86db/1W/8ohms sound louder than a speaker rated at 90db/1W/8ohms. Why? Well it all depends on the techniques used in making these measurements. The IEC and AES have some guidelines for these but no fixed regulations. This is why just as the publicly listed companies one reads through the reputation of the speaker company and this knowledge unfortunately is emprrical and changes as the company's management changes. If Paul Klipsch says (ok said) his speaker was 103db/1W you believe him. If Mathew Polk says the same I dont nesscarily believe him unless the specs are independantly verified. I am not saying MP is a bad designer but that in many cases his measurement techniques favour his speakers. Is this fair. Technically yes. Morally wel lets jsut say I'd buy a pair of Richard Vandersteen's speakers instead. Now some claim that a speaker's votlage sensitivity should be the average across the audible frequency spectrum in an anechoic chamber at seas level at 25 deg C.... Now you know where the errors can creep in. (a) what is the correct audible spectrum and it is relavant (b) where does one get an anechoic chamber? (c) should it be measred in a 2pi space ot 4pi space... This is what a John Atkinson of Stereophile article once said "In general, my measured sensitivities are slightly low compared with those published by the speakers' manufacturers. Mostly, I believe this is due to the optimistic nature of published sensitivity specifications." the whole article can be found here. http://www.stereophile.com/reference/99/index.html and funnily i have realised I dont realyl care for many speakers that are prefered/recommended by Stereophile. :-) the present method most companies use it to pick 4 or 5 freq. point and take an average. this method is largely unchanged since the 1940s and I wonder why. With the advent of the PC any P4 based computer would be able to do analyse a more sophisticated mean of the freq. curve. Picking arbitaray points on the freq scale leaves too much room of manupilation and error. This link provides some simple explanations of the terms used for measureing loudspeakers. http://www.svconline.com/mag/avinsta...ing/index.html back to the question asked. which speaker shoudl i choose 97db or 93db. I'd say listen to both. Then use your ears and what's between them. DRA Labs makes a Loudspeaker Measuring System called MLSSA (pronouced Melissa) see what they say....http://www.mlssa.com/pdf/MLSSA-Brochure.pdf and BTW MLSSA is an industry standard. LEAP/LMS, CLIO, Calsod are for poorer souls like us DIYers. Last edited by navin : 29th March 2006 at 11:25.
	() Thanks

29th March 2006, 11:56	#36
kb100 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bangy Boy! Posts: 1,555 Thanked: 21 Times	WOW.... KOW-TOW@NAVIN MODs... We need a KOW_TOW smiley badly!!! Thanks Navin... very informative... !... and proves a few things I thought are right!
	() Thanks

29th March 2006, 12:02	#37
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,198 Thanked: 9,302 Times	KB, What is a KOW_TOW?
	() Thanks

29th March 2006, 13:50	#40
Vivekphadnis BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 690 Thanked: 2 Times	Navin, how different can anechoic chambers be? All they need is a room where sound reflections are kept to a minimum. Regarding measuring equipment I agree that some companies might skimp. And what is the problem in measuring all voltages in the frequency spectrum instead of just 4 or 5 pts?
	() Thanks

29th March 2006, 16:21	#41
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,198 Thanked: 9,302 Times	anechoic chambers are hardly different but how many speakers you hear tested in one? I know many reputed european brands that dont test their speakers in anechoic chambers. Not that a AC is a requrement to produce good sounding speakers. If it were these good European brands would use one. but when you have so many variables in testing a speaker we have to rely on the speaker manufacturers reputation above most other parameters. just as you would rely on Infosys's balance sheet to be accurate than say Essar's.
	() Thanks

29th March 2006, 16:42	#42
Autophile BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Delhi Posts: 931 Thanked: 4 Times	Anechoic chambers are used by manufacturers as a controlled environment to develop the speakers. In that controlled environment it is easy to monitor the final outcome by altering minute details in the loudspeaker design. Don't worry much about anechoic chamber because none of us has listening rooms or cars designed like that. Manufacturers measure sensitivity in different areas like freespace, halfspace, anaechoic chamber etc. generally with the difference of 1m between speaker and mic.
	() Thanks