[gunner fan]

The Pledge

The Red Beauty (Swift Vdi) was bought in 2007 and has served loyally since then. A noob in ICE back then and probably still a noob (given the ears/mind here on tbhp) I had gone ahead with the following setup and had been okayish happy with it
HU - JVC AVX 8000
Front Stage - some obscure JBL coax
Back Stage - Pioneer Kevlar Cone 6x9s (and I was proud of them back in '07 - shows how much tbhp has helped me move ahead in terms of music since then)
Besides the above ICE bits the car was more or less in OEM condition barring the tyre upgrades (185x70 R14 ER60s) done when the initial wheels needed replacement


The Turn

With my swift hitting mid life crisis (4.5 yrs, 100k kms) the decision was primarily what needs be done to revive the love for my red beauty. Whether it be a body overhaul, ecu remapping kits or be it an ICE upgrade?
With the intention of selling the red beauty in say about a year or so, the ears/mind prevailed and an ICE upgrade checked the box. Thus begins an unending (ala tbhp style) and hugely denting (to the wallet) quest for a "reasonable" sound setup. I plan to retain the HU and add afresh the other missing pieces.

Now what is it that I really need???
Having heard some loud setups - I realized that while I am a bass lover (also the affection towards RnB, Dubstep, Electronica) I preferred a clean setup than a loud setup. Bottomline - the clear music should be heard by me and not the good people in the neighboring car.


FrontStage
A rush of blood to an online promotion sees me have the Focal 165 A1s as the missing piece for the new Front Stage.


An exchange later with Ajay (B&T) I realized that the online promo while not bad is not really the steal that I was making of it. But then this done...

Next on - search begins a reasonable 8" sub which would offer clean deep bass and a humble 4 ch amplifier to power both the Front and Rear setups. The long term objective is also to be able to move this setup from the Red Beauty to the Next Beauty with ease. Thus the 4 ch in the long term should have enough juice to run the Front and Rear compos while I will then opt for a mono for the sub(s)

Options for the Sub + 4 ch coming up in subsequent threads. Would love to hear from the mor learned ears/minds on what cloud be good choices.

[gunner fan]

The Sub

Knowing that I am only looking at a entry/lower level 4 ch amplifier and that I prefer SQ over SPL I narrowed down the criteria of getting 8" DVC 4 ohm subs, which could be run at 2 ohms from 2 of the 4 channels at say roughly 200 w RMS

Some contenders (purely based on arm chair research uptil now)

Image Dynamics ID8 D4 V.3

Have been told that IDs have been discontinued the past 2 years - so ???
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Polk Audio MM840DVC

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Rockford Fosgate P2D4-8

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Kicker CVR84 (10CVR84)

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And the serious heavy weights - hopefully we should get these in India

Digital Design 508b (D4.0 ohm)

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Sound Audio SA-8 V2

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TC Epic 8

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Now some of these also come in ported enclosures - though I would prefer custom building the enclosure with pure SQ in mind. I will in the coming week or so look to audition some/most of these subs - so clues about where they could be available would be helpful. Personal experience with these like MasterCard - priceless


Next Up - the 4 ch options to drive the hungry sub and the focal a1s...

[gunner fan]

The Amp

4 channel entry/lower lever variants - should be capable of about 60-80w RMS @ 4 ohm for the Focal Comps and close to 150-200w RMS @ 2 ohm for the sub

The contenders

Focal Solid 4

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Gladen M-Line 75.4

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Celestra FA 475

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Digital Design C4C

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Rainbow Beat 4

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JL Audio JX360/4

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Phew.......


While the above listings are long, will really appreciate insights into the choice that you would recommend and pls do think of my pockets when providing suggestions

Cheers
Sam

[navin]

Originally Posted by gunner fan

HU - JVC AVX 8000
I preferred a clean setup than a loud setup.
Focal 165 A1s
Next on - search begins a reasonable 8" sub which would offer clean deep bass and a humble 4 ch amplifier to power both the Front and Rear setups.

Originally Posted by gunner fan

8" DVC 4 ohm subs, which could be run at 2 ohms from 2 of the 4 channels at say roughly 200 w RMS

Image Dynamics ID8 D4 V.3
Digital Design 508b
Sound Audio SA-8 V2
TC Epic 8...

Is that Sundown Audio you are referng to?

Given the amp I would be looking at a subwofoer that is either a SVC 4 ohms or one that has 2 2ohm or 8 ohm voice coils like the ID8D2 V.3.

None of the amps you have listed will be happy driving a 2 ohm load in bridge mode.

that said Sundown and DD are primarily known for their SPL competition subwoofers. I have not either products but I have heard ID (IDQ 12") and TC (LMS-R 12" and 15") subwoofers. I would hence choose between ID and TC. Both are very good, the rest is dependant on box design and tuning.

Originally Posted by gunner fan

Focal Solid 4
Gladen M-Line 75.4
Celestra FA 475
Digital Design C4C
Rainbow Beat 4
JL Audio JX360/4

I believe the FA475 is the only one that is actually rated at 1 ohms (2 ohms bridge mode). Still I would prefer these amps be used at a safer 4ohms bridge mode.

What about Gladen's 100c4?

[gunner fan]

Thanks Navinji for your insights

Originally Posted by navin

Is that Sundown Audio you are referng to?

Yes Navinji this is the Sundown Audio SA-8 that I was referring to

Originally Posted by navin

Given the amp I would be looking at a subwofoer that is either a SVC 4 ohms or one that has 2 2ohm or 8 ohm voice coils like the ID8D2 V.3. None of the amps you have listed will be happy driving a 2 ohm load in bridge mode. I believe the FA475 is the only one that is actually rated at 1 ohms (2 ohms bridge mode). Still I would prefer these amps be used at a safer 4ohms bridge mode. What about Gladen's 100c4?

Navinji - most of the equipment I listed - choice of amps, woofer and type of woofer (DVC @ 4 ohm) was purely based again on armchair research and my limited understanding of tronix (combining both 4ohm coils to result in a 2ohm load). Sorry being a noob but could you throw some light on why/how do you say that the amps listed would or be "comfortable" at a 2ohm load? Details available online mention ratings at 2ohms for these (though not at 1ohms and thus maybe not at 2ohms bridged) - not sure I understand you fully there.
Gladen 100c4 - I believe you mean the RS100c4 - well it is an option but eats a lot more into my pocket that is comfortably permissible. Also if we then plan to to utilize the 4 ohm bridged output - would that be too low for the subs in contention

Originally Posted by navin

that said Sundown and DD are primarily known for their SPL competition subwoofers. I have not either products but I have heard ID (IDQ 12") and TC (LMS-R 12" and 15") subwoofers. I would hence choose between ID and TC. Both are very good, the rest is dependant on box design and tuning.

First and foremost I believe (and have partially heard) that a single 8" sub would be an ideal fit to my jigsaw puzzle as I am not looking at a loud setup. Also in future I can use this sub and another similar one into a bigger enclosure when moving from my swift to the upgraded car and power it with a new mono
Also when you say that Sundown and DD are primarily known for SPL - could you explain a bit more. I believe that any "good" woofer in the rightly spec'd sealed enclosure could be tuned for SQ more than SPL?
Also if we are now searching for SVC 4 ohm subs, then the Gladen range (RS, SQX) of 8" come into contention in addition to JL subs. How would you assess these vis a vis the TC, SA, DD and IDs

Tks
Sameer

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by gunner fan

... could you throw some light on why/how do you say that the amps listed would or be "comfortable" at a 2ohm load? Details available online mention ratings at 2ohms for these (though not at 1ohms and thus maybe not at 2ohms bridged) - not sure I understand you fully there. ...

In bridged mode, the 2 channels forming the bridge share the load connected. That means, if you connect a 4ohms load, each channel sees effectively 2 ohms load. For a 2ohms connected load, each channel would see 1ohm as load - which may be beyond each channel's capacity to drive.

Usually, amps that can take 1 ohm load would mention that explicitly under Output Power. Or, the power in bridged mode will explicitly mention "max into 2 ohms". If the data sheet says "X W rms per channel into 2 ohms", it implies it cannot handle 1ohm loads.

[Bass&Trouble]

No point in getting a single 2ohm subwoofer and leaving one channel of the amplifier unused. It is better to get a 4ohm SVC sub and use the bridged output to drive the subwoofer. Besides, there are very few amplifiers in the entry level segment that have a stereo output of 200W @ 2 ohms.

[gunner fan]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

In bridged mode, the 2 channels forming the bridge share the load connected. That means, if you connect a 4ohms load, each channel sees effectively 2 ohms load. For a 2ohms connected load, each channel would see 1ohm as load - which may be beyond each channel's capacity to drive.

Usually, amps that can take 1 ohm load would mention that explicitly under Output Power. Or, the power in bridged mode will explicitly mention "max into 2 ohms". If the data sheet says "X W rms per channel into 2 ohms", it implies it cannot handle 1ohm loads.

Gotcha so it's the Amperage load which gets divided not the Wattage load across each channel. So effectively should search for subs which are either -
1) 4ohm SVC - when bridged would see them demand 2 ohm load per channel
2) 2ohm DVC - should be straight forward 2 ohm per voice coil per channel
3) 8ohm DVC - when connected in series the overall load resulting would be same as above - 2 ohm per channel
Hope this understanding is correct?

Most of the amps that I have listed herein don't mention the 'Xw RMS @ 1 ohm' - will look into it closely and revert as well.

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

No point in getting a single 2ohm subwoofer and leaving one channel of the amplifier unused. It is better to get a 4ohm SVC sub and use the bridged output to drive the subwoofer. Besides, there are very few amplifiers in the entry level segment that have a stereo output of 200W @ 2 ohms.

Ajay detailing the output power of the various amp choices that I listed will prove your point. Any personal preferences of the various amps listed or if I have missed out on any particular gem? Also would the decision on the amp voice be independent of which sub I choose (in addition to the focal 165 access) to be driven?

[navin]

Originally Posted by gunner fan

why/how do you say that the amps listed would or be "comfortable" at a 2ohm load?

First and foremost I believe (and have partially heard) that a single 8" sub would be an ideal fit to my jigsaw puzzle

Also if we are now searching for SVC 4 ohm subs, then the Gladen range (RS, SQX) of 8" come into contention in addition to JL subs. How would you assess these vis a vis the TC, SA, DD and IDs

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

No point in getting a single 2ohm subwoofer and leaving one channel of the amplifier unused. It is better to get a 4ohm SVC sub and use the bridged output to drive the subwoofer. Besides, there are very few amplifiers in the entry level segment that have a stereo output of 200W @ 2 ohms.

Like B&T said above it is nicer to get a SVC 4ohm sub. Failing which the ID8/D2 V.3. (2ohm x 2) sub can be used (both 2ohm coils in series will give you 4 ohms).

Gunner, arm chair research is very dangerous. I have found many errors on google and wikipedia so you need to roll up your sleeves and get your finger nails dirty (or at my age find someone who has done so) to do a good job.

BTW the 12 and 15" TC subs I have used are for home audio applications but having used these subs I know what they are capabale of, how they are built etc..

Many brands like Digital Design and Celestra are not easily available in India otherwise. If you can import them the FA 475 mated to the ID8D2 V3 or DD 508b (SVC) would work nicely.

[gunner fan]

Ok here goes the power detailing on the various amp choices - broadly classified into 1ohm stable and otherwise

1Ohm Stable (possibly be paired with 4ohm DVC or 2ohm SVC subs)
-----------------
Celestra FA 475
4x 75W rms nominal output power;
4x 150Wrms (into 2 ohm);
4x 175Wrms (into 1 ohm) - 2x 350Wrms into 2 ohm bridge
tri-mode operation (mono + stereo without any switch or adapter);
THD < 0.1%

Rainbow Beat 4
4 x 70 Watt rms at 4 Ohm
4 x 105 Watt rms at 2 Ohm
2 x 200 Watt rms at 1 Ohm
<0,04 %, >95 dBA Weighting

1Ohm Unstable (paired with 4ohm SVC, 2 or 8 ohm DVC subs)
---------------------
Focal Solid 4
4 Ohms THD + N<=1% 4 x 75W
2 Ohms THD + N <= 1% 4 x 100W
4 Ohms Bridged THD + N<1% 2 x 200W

Gladen M Line 75.4 (Mosconi)
Stereo Power RMS @ 4 Ohm 4 x 75W
Stereo Power RMS @ 2 Ohm 4 x 110W
Bridge Power RMS @ 4 Ohm 2 x 220W
Signal to Noise Ratio > 90dB
T.H.D. @ 4 Ohm < 0.1%

Harman Kardon CA470
4 x 85w RMS @ 4 Ohms (CEA-2006 Compliant)
4 x 135w RMS @ 2 Ohms
2 x 270w RMS @ 4 Ohms bridged
Signal to Noise Ratio 104dB

Digital Design C4C
Bridged - 160 x 2
Cont Power at 1 Ohm NA
Cont Power at 2 Ohm 80 x 4
Cont Power at 4 Ohm 60 x 4
Damping Factor >100

JL Audio JX360/4
@ 4 &Omega; 55 W RMS x 4
@ 2 &Omega; 80 W RMS x 4
Bridged @ 4&Omega; 160 W RMS x 2

Originally Posted by navin

Gunner, arm chair research is very dangerous. I have found many errors on google and wikipedia so you need to roll up your sleeves and get your finger nails dirty (or at my age find someone who has done so) to do a good job.

Aye aye Navinji, I wanted to do a prelim short list from the plausible list I came up with and then look to audition them. Suggestions for places where these can be auditioned other than the usual suspects - motor concept, driven, lbm's haunt.

Originally Posted by navin

BTW the 12 and 15" TC subs I have used are for home audio applications but having used these subs I know what they are capabale of, how they are built etc..
Many brands like Digital Design and Celestra are not easily available in India otherwise. If you can import them the FA 475 mated to the ID8D2 V3 or DD 508b (SVC) would work nicely.

Any clue who of the folks on tbhp does import the TCs? DDs are available in India - with the 508b available as well in its enclosed form. Will check on the Celestra front as well.
BTW from a theoretical viewpoint - what would be the diff in 8" vs say the 10" subs (same model)??

[navin]

Originally Posted by gunner fan

Celestra FA 475 4x 150Wrms (into 2 ohm);
Rainbow Beat 4 4 x 105 Watt rms at 2 Ohm

Any clue who of the folks on tbhp does import the TCs?

BTW from a theoretical viewpoint - what would be the diff in 8" vs say the 10" subs (same model)??

You got 2 amps to choose from (see above). I know Rainbow is available locally and you got 2 subs to choose from (ID8D2 V3 or DD 508b) both which I believe are available locally.

I dont know if anyone sells TC in India. I import my speakers directly. The last time I imported about 36 different drivers the largest being the 15" TC woofer and the smallest being 2 pairs of RAAL ribbons (the 70-10D and 70-20XR are about the same size the former however is meant for 3 ways crossed at 3k+, the later can be used in 2 ways crossed at 2k to say a 15cm woofer).

If you are importing do NOT import a small consignment which they can throw around. Go to someone who is importing other drivers and add your order to theirs. Also the consigment should be palletised and it is then better handled (using fork lifts). A friend of mine import 2 12" woofers and both woofers arriaved damaged.

[gunner fan]

Originally Posted by navin

You got 2 amps to choose from (see above). I know Rainbow is available locally and you got 2 subs to choose from (ID8D2 V3 or DD 508b) both which I believe are available locally.

Navinji the option of these 2 amps (Celestra n Rainbow) is to go with 4 ohm DVC subs - and yes I will try and audition these - especially the rainbow since its a snugger fit to my pocket.
However in case I go for the 4ohm SVC subs, then believe the Gladen (75.4) and DD (c4c) could also be good options given their respective pedigrees?

Originally Posted by navin

I dont know if anyone sells TC in India. I import my speakers directly. The last time I imported about 36 different drivers the largest being the 15" TC woofer and the smallest being 2 pairs of RAAL ribbons (the 70-10D and 70-20XR are about the same size the former however is meant for 3 ways crossed at 3k+, the later can be used in 2 ways crossed at 2k to say a 15cm woofer).
If you are importing do NOT import a small consignment which they can throw around. Go to someone who is importing other drivers and add your order to theirs. Also the consigment should be palletised and it is then better handled (using fork lifts). A friend of mine import 2 12" woofers and both woofers arriaved damaged.

Not sure about TC (haven't heard back from them yet) but the Sundown folks are talking to a distributor in India. Lets see what comes of that. And acknowledge your tip about isolated/small volume imports - lets see if we can gather a group buy for either TC or Sundown drivers
Any hints about folks who may already be importing/looking to import drivers?

Tks
Sameer

[Safari_Beast]

Hello gunner fan

Digital design products can be procured from BBW distributors based in delhi and Celestra is available with Beesound Inc who are from banglore .

Originally Posted by navin

Many brands like Digital Design and Celestra are not easily available in India otherwise. If you can import them the FA 475 mated to the ID8D2 V3 or DD 508b (SVC) would work nicely.

[gunner fan]

Originally Posted by Safari_Beast

Hello gunner fanDigital design products can be procured from BBW distributors based in delhi and Celestra is available with Beesound Inc who are from banglore .

Thanks bro, am aware and will reach out to Gunbir (BBW) and/or Mi10 (Beesound) for their respective products lines
Any clue about if and who gets the Sundown Audio and TC drivers in? And joints in NCR where these products can be auditioned other than he usual suspects of motor concept, driven and lbm's haunt?

[foby.sebastian]

Originally Posted by gunner fan

Thanks bro, am aware and will reach out to Gunbir (BBW) and/or Mi10 (Beesound) for their respective products lines
Any clue about if and who gets the Sundown Audio and TC drivers in? And joints in NCR where these products can be auditioned other than he usual suspects of motor concept, driven and lbm's haunt?

posting on behalf of Sankar Narayanan:

Hi gunner fan,

For any queries on Sundown Audio products you should speak to Anubhav Gupta. He is responsible for importing Sundown Audio products in India.

Here are the details :-

Anubhav Gupta
Hype Audio
9999008444