Grade of Copper in Power Wires ?

929RON · 21st August 2006, 21:19

We have a lot of options while buying for Ex: 4 Ga. power wire for Amps,
Different brands of wires differ in pricing and quality,
Now how is the actual quality determined ?
As far as I know it has got to do with the number of Strands of copper used, I maybe wrong,
Then what is the factor that makes the difference in Quality on Power wires,
The Grade of copper ?
If yes, then does the color differ ? How to differentiate, as all are OFC copper wires ?

Experts

Sam Kapasi · 21st August 2006, 22:02

No there isn't a real way you can look at the colour of copper and determine what kind it is.

In fact it may not even look copper coloured, if it is coated with tin or silver etc.
No, you just have to buy wire from a good brand and take their word for it.

If you have the budget, buy from a well known cable brand. Always a clever thing to do. If not, buy Finolex or other well known Indian automotive brands (I am talking strictly for power).

DO NOT buy cheap amp kits (read: boss, fake monster etc)

Gauge is purely determined from the cross sectional area of the copper used.

theEnd · 22nd August 2006, 00:18

Just wondering. How cheap is a normal Boss wiring kit? I picked one up for 1500 yesterday. (Possibly got fleeced, and its already hissing)

What about an Audison Connexion kit?

Sam Kapasi · 22nd August 2006, 00:29

No comparison.

See frankly, if a wire is thick enough and can handle current with least resistance, it can do the job for power.
OK there are other factors such as flexibility and heat resistance and thickness of insulation. But functionally, a thick power cable, is a thick power cable. However, cheaper kits tend to make the wire "appear" thick, using cheap, thin and few strands of copper insode. often the fuse block creates more hassles than preventing them, such as heating up due to improper contacts etc. These things can be avoided by using a good power kit.
Where the audison kit will score quite pointedly is at the RCA level, where a poor cable like boss will sound terrible and invite external noises and interferences. Also the QUALITY of audio being transferred is important, as in a car you will carry line-level audio for 4 to 6 metres.
Also speaker cable makes a big difference too.

gunbir · 22nd August 2006, 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by theEnd

What about an Audison Connexion kit?

The Connection Audison FPK300 kit (8g) retails for Rs 2190 (though there has been a slight upward price revision lately). Thats just a power kit. RCA Interconnects are sold separately.

And just to add to Sams post... you can only wish thats copper and not some sub standard alloy, which is coloured to look like copper...

929RON · 22nd August 2006, 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by theEnd

Just wondering. How cheap is a normal Boss wiring kit? I picked one up for 1500 yesterday. (Possibly got fleeced, and its already hissing)

Which wiring kit was this by boss, 8Ga or 4Ga,
If it was 8Ga man ! you were taken for a ride.
Boss is not worth it,

Try Kicker, Stinger, Audison, Scosche and If you are willing to spend more, then Monster rocks !

Stinger Platinum Series 4Ga kit Available in bangalore for Rs5500
JL Audio 8Ga kit Available in bangalore for Rs 2800

JL is a difficult to find but is very high quality too. I had seen them with one of the Dealers.

theEnd · 22nd August 2006, 01:11

I dont wanna hijack this thread with a stupid pricing and brands question, so lets get back to discussing copper.

I think quality probably has a lot to do with the level of impurities in the copper. After thickness of course.

Also, fewer but fatter strands are probably better than many thin strands.

low_bass_makker · 22nd August 2006, 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

If you have the budget, buy from a well known cable brand. Always a clever thing to do. If not, buy Finolex or other well known Indian automotive brands (I am talking strictly for power).

I personnally used does make much difference ......if good brand is used like finolex , lapp , RR.....there sizes are in MM not gauge so check out this post for the correct size.....

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/257692-post3.html

jinu_joseph · 22nd August 2006, 10:23

Hey guys I was going thru the finolex website when i came across the specs of their "Auto Cables" .

http://www.finolex.com/htmldocs/pbcables.html#spec

Here if you see the resitance of the cable is as low as 3.10 ohms per KM. so if were to use these as speaker cables, that would be 5 meters(max) of wire between amp and Speaker which works out to 0.0155 Ohms. Going by the general recommendation the speaker wire should have a impedance less than 5% that of the speaker for best output. So even if I am using a 2ohm speaker that works out to 0.1 ohms. So isnt this wire really good or am i missing something ??

low_bass_makker · 22nd August 2006, 12:20

these wires are used in the power wiring of the car...like lights ignition and other stuff. the thick wire is for the starter ..... I think u cannot get these wire local at a shop keeper as they are majorly made for oem`s .

so as suggested by sam bhai get a thick 25mmsq or as required wire for power only. for speaker wire get a good brand or some times wire comes with the speaker itself.......

navin · 22nd August 2006, 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinu_joseph

. So even if I am using a 2ohm speaker that works out to 0.1 ohms. So isnt this wire really good or am i missing something ??

beyond just impedance, good speaker wires address other issues such as skin effect, tonality (which to some extent is an caused by skin effect), etc. Also I am not sure how felxible these wiress. in a car, spaes are tight and wires have to more flexible than in a home.

jinu_joseph · 22nd August 2006, 13:41

Navin, was reading up on skin effect and found that this was peresent in all cables(even monster cable) though its lesser in multistrand cables. But its effect at audio freq is very negligible, but is a serious problem for [FONT=Arial]high frequency applications such as RF Power and Transmission.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]The following gives the mathematical theory behind this [/FONT]
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...ect_Cables.htm

Finally what matters is the net impedance of the cable which is very marginally effected by skin effect. Even then if we want to avoid skin effect the same can be done by going in for individually insulated multistrand wire also called Litz wire

929RON · 25th August 2006, 21:02

Just saw one of the Boss 8 gauge Wiring kits,
Man it is not even 8 gauge, we don't use that stuff for installations, so, we did not know,
The power wire is 8 ga to look at all right, but the wire strands inside are nowhere near 8 Ga, in fact it is so thin that it can be rather termed 12 Ga or even 16 Ga.
I have seen people hooking up the Sony XM-SD61X 600 RMS amp with 2 subs with that wire.
Worst part, the strands inside is not even copper, if you cut it open, the wire is coated with a copper color and is actually silver in color, some cheap alloy which is not even fit for speakers , let alone power for amps.

Consumers beware, Some Accessory shops are using these kits and charging good money for it whereas it actually costs Rs 400 to buy.

So the next time you see a Boss wiring kit, STRICT NO! NO !

Sam Kapasi · 26th August 2006, 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by 929RON

So the next time you see a Boss wiring kit, STRICT NO! NO !

For the same budget, I would buy 5M RCA cables from MX (available at many shops) and power cable from Finolex(available at all auto parts stores, just buy the thicker one, (Positive, 6m and ground,1m) and a really thin one, 5m and the result would be far far superior.

binz · 26th August 2006, 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

DO NOT buy cheap amp kits (read: boss, fake monster )

Quote:

Originally Posted by 929RON

So the next time you see a Boss wiring kit, STRICT NO! NO !

Ahhhh…again Ahhhhh.

I used boss. Reasons were, I was on a tight budget and didn’t want to buy anything without B&W. See, I don’t know “boss”, I don’t care about their company and for 500 bucks in the grey market I was getting a wiring kit for the install. I went ahead.

No I want to know if I switch to a Jbl wiring kit or audison. What will be the percentage difference between these two and the “boss”(in terms of sound)
Will I be able to perceive this difference?
I saved up sum money and don’t mind spending it on a rewiring of the system.

Could you guys sam and gunbir post the approx cost. Don’t mind shelling out 2-2.5k

21st August 2006, 21:19	#1
929RON BHPian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: KS CITY Posts: 114 Thanked: 0 Times View My Garage	Grade of Copper in Power Wires ? We have a lot of options while buying for Ex: 4 Ga. power wire for Amps, Different brands of wires differ in pricing and quality, Now how is the actual quality determined ? As far as I know it has got to do with the number of Strands of copper used, I maybe wrong, Then what is the factor that makes the difference in Quality on Power wires, The Grade of copper ? If yes, then does the color differ ? How to differentiate, as all are OFC copper wires ? Experts
	() Thanks

21st August 2006, 22:02	#2
Sam Kapasi Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mumbai (but wat Posts: 6,997 Thanked: 2,378 Times View My Garage	No there isn't a real way you can look at the colour of copper and determine what kind it is. In fact it may not even look copper coloured, if it is coated with tin or silver etc. No, you just have to buy wire from a good brand and take their word for it. If you have the budget, buy from a well known cable brand. Always a clever thing to do. If not, buy Finolex or other well known Indian automotive brands (I am talking strictly for power). DO NOT buy cheap amp kits (read: boss, fake monster etc) Gauge is purely determined from the cross sectional area of the copper used. Last edited by Sam Kapasi : 21st August 2006 at 22:03.
	() Thanks

22nd August 2006, 00:18	#3
theEnd BHPian Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bombay Posts: 534 Thanked: 6 Times View My Garage	Just wondering. How cheap is a normal Boss wiring kit? I picked one up for 1500 yesterday. (Possibly got fleeced, and its already hissing) What about an Audison Connexion kit?
	() Thanks

22nd August 2006, 00:29	#4
Sam Kapasi Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mumbai (but wat Posts: 6,997 Thanked: 2,378 Times View My Garage	No comparison. See frankly, if a wire is thick enough and can handle current with least resistance, it can do the job for power. OK there are other factors such as flexibility and heat resistance and thickness of insulation. But functionally, a thick power cable, is a thick power cable. However, cheaper kits tend to make the wire "appear" thick, using cheap, thin and few strands of copper insode. often the fuse block creates more hassles than preventing them, such as heating up due to improper contacts etc. These things can be avoided by using a good power kit. Where the audison kit will score quite pointedly is at the RCA level, where a poor cable like boss will sound terrible and invite external noises and interferences. Also the QUALITY of audio being transferred is important, as in a car you will carry line-level audio for 4 to 6 metres. Also speaker cable makes a big difference too.
	() Thanks

22nd August 2006, 01:11	#7
theEnd BHPian Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bombay Posts: 534 Thanked: 6 Times View My Garage	I dont wanna hijack this thread with a stupid pricing and brands question, so lets get back to discussing copper. I think quality probably has a lot to do with the level of impurities in the copper. After thickness of course. Also, fewer but fatter strands are probably better than many thin strands.
	() Thanks

22nd August 2006, 10:23	#9
jinu_joseph BHPian Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Mumbai Posts: 421 Thanked: 188 Times	Hey guys I was going thru the finolex website when i came across the specs of their "Auto Cables" . http://www.finolex.com/htmldocs/pbcables.html#spec Here if you see the resitance of the cable is as low as 3.10 ohms per KM. so if were to use these as speaker cables, that would be 5 meters(max) of wire between amp and Speaker which works out to 0.0155 Ohms. Going by the general recommendation the speaker wire should have a impedance less than 5% that of the speaker for best output. So even if I am using a 2ohm speaker that works out to 0.1 ohms. So isnt this wire really good or am i missing something ?? Last edited by jinu_joseph : 22nd August 2006 at 10:30.
	() Thanks

22nd August 2006, 12:20	#10
low_bass_makker Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Faridabad Posts: 6,815 Thanked: 305 Times View My Garage	these wires are used in the power wiring of the car...like lights ignition and other stuff. the thick wire is for the starter ..... I think u cannot get these wire local at a shop keeper as they are majorly made for oem`s . so as suggested by sam bhai get a thick 25mmsq or as required wire for power only. for speaker wire get a good brand or some times wire comes with the speaker itself.......
	() Thanks

22nd August 2006, 13:41	#12
jinu_joseph BHPian Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Mumbai Posts: 421 Thanked: 188 Times	Navin, was reading up on skin effect and found that this was peresent in all cables(even monster cable) though its lesser in multistrand cables. But its effect at audio freq is very negligible, but is a serious problem for [FONT=Arial]high frequency applications such as RF Power and Transmission.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial][/FONT] [FONT=Arial]The following gives the mathematical theory behind this [/FONT] http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...ect_Cables.htm Finally what matters is the net impedance of the cable which is very marginally effected by skin effect. Even then if we want to avoid skin effect the same can be done by going in for individually insulated multistrand wire also called Litz wire
	() Thanks

25th August 2006, 21:02	#13
929RON BHPian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: KS CITY Posts: 114 Thanked: 0 Times View My Garage	Boss 8 gauge wiring kit Just saw one of the Boss 8 gauge Wiring kits, Man it is not even 8 gauge, we don't use that stuff for installations, so, we did not know, The power wire is 8 ga to look at all right, but the wire strands inside are nowhere near 8 Ga, in fact it is so thin that it can be rather termed 12 Ga or even 16 Ga. I have seen people hooking up the Sony XM-SD61X 600 RMS amp with 2 subs with that wire. Worst part, the strands inside is not even copper, if you cut it open, the wire is coated with a copper color and is actually silver in color, some cheap alloy which is not even fit for speakers , let alone power for amps. Consumers beware, Some Accessory shops are using these kits and charging good money for it whereas it actually costs Rs 400 to buy. So the next time you see a Boss wiring kit, STRICT NO! NO ! Last edited by 929RON : 25th August 2006 at 21:04.
	() Thanks