Uninteruppted Power for ICE

Sam Kapasi · 19th October 2006, 19:13

Great Mana, have you tried this? With 4700mfd (effectively 0.0047F) or 10,000mfd (which is 0.001F) his sytem will not even run for 1 second without power.
I am pretty sure of this.

Car systems work on current draw, as the voltage is low. Hence car capacitors are made in Farads, not microfarads.
For example a standard capacitor for a car amplifier is 1F which is 10,000,000microfarad. As you can see, a tiny 4700mfd will go by unnoticed.

greatmana2000 · 19th October 2006, 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

Great Mana, have you tried this? With 4700mfd (effectively 0.0047F) or 10,000mfd (which is 0.001F) his sytem will not even run for 1 second without power.
I am pretty sure of this.

Car systems work on current draw, as the voltage is low. Hence car capacitors are made in Farads, not microfarads.
For example a standard capacitor for a car amplifier is 1F which is 10,000,000microfarad. As you can see, a tiny 4700mfd will go by unnoticed.

Sam , Thats what i have in my car and it does work . I am not talking abt the amplifiers here ,just the head unit . 10,000 mfd is quite ok ,for a head. I am from chennai ,i did love to demonstrate ,but i dont think you are from chennai ...hmmz

low_bass_makker · 19th October 2006, 23:16

Sam Bhai this could work if connected to the acc wire of the HU not the wire which goes to the battery........but if connected to the battery wire I dont think it will work for more than a sec......

Sam Kapasi · 20th October 2006, 02:32

You are both correct. LBM thank you for opening my eyes to the obvious.

The HU runs off the power from the YELLOW wire. The RED wire is merely a trigger and does not deliver much current. Ofcourse! Keep the trigger charged and the HU will continue to run for a short while.

I was wrong. Now I will become a murga and hold my ears.

low_bass_makker · 20th October 2006, 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

I was wrong. Now I will become a murga and hold my ears.

No need Sam bhai................how were the kebabs......

greatmana2000 · 20th October 2006, 21:20

Low bass maker , you are right .. I use the net at office and in my urgency ,transposed the red and the yellows . thank you for correcting my post as well !

neways , I think anyone who goes in for a ICE setup should really consider this setup ,but again a word of caution - a wiring harness in a car will NOT support bigger capaciators - so please dont go for anything beyond 10,000.

Another point I would like to make is instead of going in for capaciators in farads ,a sensible decision would be to buy a seperate battery for the amplifiers .

I feel this way is much cheaper to having a bunch of cans in the dicky .

Sam - forums are a great way to learn and sometimes,most of the people miss the obvious .

cheers .. A great Diwali /Deepavali to all of you

Sam Kapasi · 21st October 2006, 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatmana2000

I feel this way is much cheaper to having a bunch of cans in the dicky .

The capacitors in the back are to create a current bank if you will, for a sudden surge of power needed by the amplifier for the bass notes. Nothing to do at ALL with the interruption of Power. And do note, these are generally 1X 10 (raised to 6) mfd. or much more.

I agree that in theory, a capacitor and a battery are functionally similar, it is the transient time that makes all the difference. You cannot replace a capacitor with another battery and achieve the same results. Besides a second battery in parallel may mean upgradation of the charging system too.

low_bass_makker · 22nd October 2006, 00:36

I agree with sam on the cap and the battery part the cap could deliver the power more sooner than the battery thats why One should get a cap but not a battery till one has to go for a SPL setup or one has to upgrade the charging system to keep up the two batterys......

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/277186-post118.html

santosh.s · 23rd October 2006, 10:55

It seems to be obvious or intuitive that a cap can provide high current required for heavy bass notes and even act as "UPS" for a short period (duration depending upon its size and the amount of power drawn out of it), but what about probably a huge current surge which battery has to supply during its initial charging? Can it be a cause of concern, and if so, how is it tackled?

navin · 23rd October 2006, 11:54

caps dont charge as fast as they discharge.

greatmana2000 · 23rd October 2006, 15:52

I do agree caps help with a better transient response ,but at the same time ,if someone has plans for a spl setup ,then I dont think the stock alternator /battery would suffice .

When ,I thought of installing those caps I found them to be outrageously expensive and I bought second hand caps from a stripped down industrial ups .

I am happy with the caps performance . I am unable to post a pic of the setup .

Bass&Trouble · 23rd October 2006, 16:05

Or one could buy a batcap. And all the hype that comes alongwith it.

triedeverything · 18th April 2010, 21:38

Has anyone from Bangalore tried this with their ICE setup? I wonder how they achieve this in the OE system on the Scorpio because it never restarted even if the engine was restarted. It is only after I upgraded that I am facing the issue of a restart every time the engine is started. The OE system did not have preouts and thus could not be amped. I also wanted a touchscreen. The new system is a JVC AVX 826 which uses separate wiring and not the OE wires. Any advice on who can set this right for me in Bangalore will be appreciated.

DerAlte · 19th April 2010, 02:08

Just needs 1 wire swap, I think. By design, the HU is supposed to restart every time the engine cranks. This is linked to a signal from the electrical system which goes low every time the starter motor is switched on. This must be coming from the chassis electronics module (the one that controls the power windows, interior lights etc.). The (steering wheel) key always stays in the On position, right, even during mHawk stop-start cycle? I think the M&M guys (or whoever made the stop-start scheme) forgot to account for the use case of HU restarting every time the engine is started by the stop-start controller! Anyhow, do remember that you are trying to violate a convention, right or wrong.

Instead of the wire from chassis electronics module, a wire can be brought out from the key switch (off when key is at off or in the spring-return Start Engine position, on when key is turned; this is an input to the chassis electronics module) and connected to the 'Switch On' input of the HU. This will bypass the switching off of the Accessory line from the module every time the starter motor is switched on. The HU will stay on as long as the switch is not in the Off position.

You will need someone knowledgeable to do this - the Service Center guys will refuse to do it citing Warranty, and the other electrical 'mechanics' will find it difficult to trace out.

triedeverything · 19th April 2010, 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAlte

J By design, the HU is supposed to restart every time the engine cranks.

This is not true - at least in the case of the M-Hawk.

I think the M&M guys (or whoever made the stop-start scheme) forgot to account for the use case of HU restarting every time the engine is started by the stop-start controller!

Once again, this is not true. (BTW the start stop system was designed by Bosch.) The OE system had no such issues. It did not restart every time the hybrid worked. So they did consider the use case.

19th October 2006, 19:13	#16
Sam Kapasi Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mumbai (but wat Posts: 6,997 Thanked: 2,378 Times View My Garage	Great Mana, have you tried this? With 4700mfd (effectively 0.0047F) or 10,000mfd (which is 0.001F) his sytem will not even run for 1 second without power. I am pretty sure of this. Car systems work on current draw, as the voltage is low. Hence car capacitors are made in Farads, not microfarads. For example a standard capacitor for a car amplifier is 1F which is 10,000,000microfarad. As you can see, a tiny 4700mfd will go by unnoticed.
	() Thanks

19th October 2006, 23:16	#18
low_bass_makker Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Faridabad Posts: 6,815 Thanked: 305 Times View My Garage	Sam Bhai this could work if connected to the acc wire of the HU not the wire which goes to the battery........but if connected to the battery wire I dont think it will work for more than a sec......
	() Thanks

20th October 2006, 02:32	#19
Sam Kapasi Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mumbai (but wat Posts: 6,997 Thanked: 2,378 Times View My Garage	You are both correct. LBM thank you for opening my eyes to the obvious. The HU runs off the power from the YELLOW wire. The RED wire is merely a trigger and does not deliver much current. Ofcourse! Keep the trigger charged and the HU will continue to run for a short while. I was wrong. Now I will become a murga and hold my ears.
	() Thanks

20th October 2006, 21:20	#21
greatmana2000 BANNED Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: chennai Posts: 703 Thanked: 58 Times	hi Low bass maker , you are right .. I use the net at office and in my urgency ,transposed the red and the yellows . thank you for correcting my post as well ! neways , I think anyone who goes in for a ICE setup should really consider this setup ,but again a word of caution - a wiring harness in a car will NOT support bigger capaciators - so please dont go for anything beyond 10,000. Another point I would like to make is instead of going in for capaciators in farads ,a sensible decision would be to buy a seperate battery for the amplifiers . I feel this way is much cheaper to having a bunch of cans in the dicky . Sam - forums are a great way to learn and sometimes,most of the people miss the obvious . cheers .. A great Diwali /Deepavali to all of you
	() Thanks

22nd October 2006, 00:36	#23
low_bass_makker Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Faridabad Posts: 6,815 Thanked: 305 Times View My Garage	I agree with sam on the cap and the battery part the cap could deliver the power more sooner than the battery thats why One should get a cap but not a battery till one has to go for a SPL setup or one has to upgrade the charging system to keep up the two batterys...... http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/277186-post118.html
	() Thanks

23rd October 2006, 10:55	#24
santosh.s Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,077 Thanked: 70 Times View My Garage	It seems to be obvious or intuitive that a cap can provide high current required for heavy bass notes and even act as "UPS" for a short period (duration depending upon its size and the amount of power drawn out of it), but what about probably a huge current surge which battery has to supply during its initial charging? Can it be a cause of concern, and if so, how is it tackled?
	() Thanks

23rd October 2006, 11:54	#25
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,199 Thanked: 9,306 Times	caps dont charge as fast as they discharge.
	() Thanks

23rd October 2006, 15:52	#26
greatmana2000 BANNED Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: chennai Posts: 703 Thanked: 58 Times	hi I do agree caps help with a better transient response ,but at the same time ,if someone has plans for a spl setup ,then I dont think the stock alternator /battery would suffice . When ,I thought of installing those caps I found them to be outrageously expensive and I bought second hand caps from a stripped down industrial ups . I am happy with the caps performance . I am unable to post a pic of the setup .
	() Thanks

23rd October 2006, 16:05	#27
Bass&Trouble Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bombay Posts: 2,754 Thanked: 124 Times	Or one could buy a batcap. And all the hype that comes alongwith it.
	() Thanks

18th April 2010, 21:38	#28
triedeverything BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bangalore Posts: 500 Thanked: 213 Times View My Garage	Has anyone from Bangalore tried this with their ICE setup? I wonder how they achieve this in the OE system on the Scorpio because it never restarted even if the engine was restarted. It is only after I upgraded that I am facing the issue of a restart every time the engine is started. The OE system did not have preouts and thus could not be amped. I also wanted a touchscreen. The new system is a JVC AVX 826 which uses separate wiring and not the OE wires. Any advice on who can set this right for me in Bangalore will be appreciated.
	() Thanks

19th April 2010, 02:08	#29
DerAlte Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bangalore Posts: 8,069 Thanked: 2,919 Times	Just needs 1 wire swap, I think. By design, the HU is supposed to restart every time the engine cranks. This is linked to a signal from the electrical system which goes low every time the starter motor is switched on. This must be coming from the chassis electronics module (the one that controls the power windows, interior lights etc.). The (steering wheel) key always stays in the On position, right, even during mHawk stop-start cycle? I think the M&M guys (or whoever made the stop-start scheme) forgot to account for the use case of HU restarting every time the engine is started by the stop-start controller! Anyhow, do remember that you are trying to violate a convention, right or wrong. Instead of the wire from chassis electronics module, a wire can be brought out from the key switch (off when key is at off or in the spring-return Start Engine position, on when key is turned; this is an input to the chassis electronics module) and connected to the 'Switch On' input of the HU. This will bypass the switching off of the Accessory line from the module every time the starter motor is switched on. The HU will stay on as long as the switch is not in the Off position. You will need someone knowledgeable to do this - the Service Center guys will refuse to do it citing Warranty, and the other electrical 'mechanics' will find it difficult to trace out. Last edited by DerAlte : 19th April 2010 at 02:14.
	() Thanks