[dust-n-bones]

Hi forum members, I am new to team-bhp, am thankful to be included on this great platform, but you now stand forewarned. Lets begin.

'In Car Entertainment' these days seems to primarily mean a slick touchscreen, and its many wonders of navigation, bluetooth, android auto, apple carplay, voice commands. Many team-bhp threads in the ICE section are lately dedicated exclusively to screens. Auto reviewers and dealers dangle big screens as must-haves for upselling to the 'bling variants' - the beancutters have gamed their demographic really well.

I am nobody to complain when in addition to the FMCGs, industrial manufacturers get consumer psychology pat. However, I have my problems with the touchscreen value proposition:

• Navigation: The driver is supposed to look sideways, and down at the touchscreen. This, while driving in an unfamiliar traffic pattern, trying to time the next turn. The screen meanwhile is for some reason not even facing the driver. Its aimed in the general direction of the rear middle of the car. I will rather prefer a dedicated GPS device (like Garmin in the US) or a smartphone in my peripheral vision while looking straight ahead.
  
• Entertainment: We're supposed to be happy bluetoothing or cabling our music from one smartscreen into another. Didn't a single DIN box used to offer this 10 years ago? The phone can understand voice commands, but I am supposed to talk to the car for talking to the phone? WI-FI pairing is coming with Android 11, good luck using that with devices in circulation now. Android auto - can't I use it natively on my own phone/tablet?
  
• Reverse camera: This I acknowledge is truly valuable, especially for most of us Indians who don't train how to drive formally. (While in the US, I was made aware that swivelling in your seat and looking directly behind, along with a general surrounding inspection, is the best generalized way to reverse a vehicle. However, as I said, not everybody is trained this way, is not flexible enough of limb, and many vehicles these days have severely limited rear vision, so I agree here.
  
• Vehicle diagnostics - This data is useful, but is the same thing not available on the dashboard itself?

For these and other irresistible features, we're stuck for 10 odd years with a) hardware that can't be upgraded, b) software that upgrades on somebody's whims and c) permanent coloration to the music. 10 odd years stuck with an 'ICE' screen, whereas all other devices around it will recycle every 2-3 years.

I go to an automobile manufacturer for automobile technology. I am uncomfortable letting the same manufacturer dictate my choices in audio and devices. The power that people gave to Steve Jobs in awe of his acumen at deciding what they wanted, I am not comfortable sharing with vehicle manufacturers, Google, Apple or even Steve Jobs, RIP.

So what am I proposing? I have a rough sketch, which I need this wonderful community to validate and add flesh and bones to:

• Pick a non 'ICE loaded' car. While not getting into 'What Car' territory, Hyundai Creta 'E' and XUV300 'W' variants come with no touchscreen, no speakers even, but with a top-of-the-line engine option. Splendid by me :-). The Korean sisters are top-of-the-league at bombarding consumers with features of questionable utility, but I have to give credit where its due. They push out so many options that you're likely to catch the bait with one variant or the other. Anyway, if you are looking to buy a car, pick one with a minimalistic ICE setup. If you are looking to upgrade your ICE setup, read on.
• BYOD - Bring Your Own Device: all occupants these days carry their own devices, their own music, and uniformly bad sound quality. What if we give them a USB (-C preferably) cable to extract the digitized audio, bye-passing the onboard DACs.
• A reasonable DAC: Feed USB-C to something like Fiio K3 which decodes upto 384kHz/32 bit samples into a line-out. Don't like wires? Throw in a tablet serving a hotspot and hi-res songs. Chromecast Audio is a super cheap and sweet DAC in that case.
• Feed the line out to a 4-channel setup.

What does this buy us? No Head-Unit required. No signal hopping from smartphones into a head-unit only to muddy the sound further. I am at my liberty to evolve the setup, based on what sounds nice to me and my budget, rather than live with what bean-cutters decide as my taste in audio - after polishing off with my bank account.
Alas, working off base variants forces you to negotiate with safety essentials, a sad part of the automotive scene till the 'bling' aspect of the safety technology gives way to some standardization and regulation. You should not have to make this compromise, but there you go.


Back to our setup. Looks something like this.



Questions:

• Is this bonkers? Please tell me if swimming against the tide is a loosing idea or if this is unworkable or if factory warranties are in jeopardy or whatever.
• Turning a car, specially if new, into a permanent rattletrap for the sake of custom ICE is for me, like everybody else, a big concern. Any suggestions for trustworthy installers in south Bangalore?
• What amplifier and speakers assuming a 40-50k budget? I am not looking for the thump. And I suppose dealers can retrofit sail panels from higher variant spares if we choose to add tweeters?
• Is a DAC like Fiio K3 which has no independent power source sufficient here? We are not going to use its headphone amp stage, so driving just the DAC with smartphones may not be a problem is my guess. Are there alternatives?
• I assume we can use the DAC to control sound volume?
• I see most 4 channel car amps have 4 line-in inputs, while a stereo line-out from DAC will provide 2. Do car amps have a 'stereo input mode'?
• How do you wire the amp for the 'turn-on' signal in this case? A fuse box wire-tap or a 12V signal from a power bank maybe?

[Aditya]

Thread moved out from the Assembly Line. Thanks for sharing!

[greenhorn]

No this is not bonkers and has been discussed at length here

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/car-e...will-work.html (Crazy Idea - Direct connection to Amp (no Head-Unit) - Will it work?!?)

And I suppose dealers can retrofit sail panels from higher variant spares if we choose to add tweeters?

Yes, but most component speakers come with tweeter mounting pods which do a decent job. if you want a stealth install - then using the OE panels would be the better option

Is a DAC like Fiio K3 which has no independent power source sufficient here? We are not going to use its headphone amp stage, so driving just the DAC with smartphones may not be a problem is my guess. Are there alternatives?

The fiio K3 has 1.9V pre outs which should be acceptable (ideally 4V are better for lower SNR, but you'll need something like a line driver which we will come to in a bit

I assume we can use the DAC to control sound volume?

Yes

I see most 4 channel car amps have 4 line-in inputs, while a stereo line-out from DAC will provide 2. Do car amps have a 'stereo input mode'?

Usually no, but an RCA Y splitter is a cheap and effective hack.

How do you wire the amp for the 'turn-on' signal in this case? A fuse box wire-tap or a 12V signal from a power bank maybe?

Hook it up to the ignition voltage. That should do

In general, People give up on the idea because they lose steering wheel controls, front/back adjustment, and most of the money you save on ditching the HU ends up spent on an entry level amp which makes the tradeoff not worth the inconvenience for most.

[GTO]

I had a similar setup in my Jeep once, because I didn't want to risk head-unit theft in a 4x4 with a soft-top and lockless doors.

Had an iPod & phone holder placed between the two seats. Got two Pioneer speakers hidden under the rear seat and a Sony amplifier hidden under the dashboard. It worked pretty damn well. As Greenhorn advised, the amp's power was linked to the ignition.

[four.bytes]

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

What does this buy us? No Head-Unit required. No signal hopping from smartphones into a head-unit only to muddy the sound further. I am at my liberty to evolve the setup, based on what sounds nice to me and my budget, rather than live with what bean-cutters decide as my taste in audio - after polishing off with my bank account.
Alas, working off base variants forces you to negotiate with safety essentials, a sad part of the automotive scene till the 'bling' aspect of the safety technology gives way to some standardization and regulation. You should not have to make this compromise, but there you go.

Did you get this done, will need some suggestion?

Mod Note : Please quote ONLY the relevant bits of a post. Quoting a full, long post inconveniences our mobile readers.

Thanks!

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

[list][*] Pick a non 'ICE loaded' car. While not getting into 'What Car' territory, Hyundai Creta 'E' and XUV300 'W' variants come with no touchscreen, no speakers even, but with a top-of-the-line engine option. Splendid by me :-)..
Alas, working off base variants forces you to negotiate with safety essentials, a sad part of the automotive scene till the 'bling' aspect of the safety technology gives way to some standardization and regulation. You should not have to make this compromise, but there you go.
]

This is the only issue.
While I agree with you 💯 on the infotainment part, with most OEM offerings being mediocre, the deletion of many useful features in the base variant, especially those below 10 lakhs is a bummer.

Everyday utility items like height adjustable seats, arm rests, rear wash/wipe/demister, day/night IRVMs, 60:40 split rear seats and even basic stuff like headrests in the 2nd row go missing.
Worst by far, ironically thanks to the proliferation of electric adjustable ORVMs, is that companies don't bother to give manual internally adjustable ORVMs!!!
It's either stick your hands out to smear the ORVMs or upgrade to a variant with electric ORVMs.

Guess most of our market will happily choose a mediocre OEM touchscreeny thing than a gaping hole or blank looking dashboard.

Though the rear parking cameras are a real deal breaker.
With ever worsening rear visibility and our Indian parking spaces, a rear camera is a boon. And nothing is better than a big screen to show it.

But if the car is small or has good all round visibility, with the now mandatory reverse parking sensors, one can overlook that aspect too.

[fiestarry]

Call me old school but I have found no need for a big touchscreen head unit with a variety of controls.
I fix my mobile phone into the holder installed on the windscreen and plug into the aux port of my old car stereo.
Everything works like a charm.

[viXit]

For people looking to keep their warranty but still get amazing audio. This is PERFECT. No cutting involved, no wiring done.

And an empty dash means no theft

[manish84]

This thread has come well in time to address something which has been going in my mind. I am considering buying Yaris J/G OPT CVT for my father. Both of them come with only 4 speakers but no head unit. Toyota dealership is asking for 35k to install the head unit. Keen to know if this solution could save me some money.

So as I understand, I would need to buy a DAC and an amplifier to power the 4 pre-installed speakers. Why do we need a DAC when the phone already gives out an audio output (as I can hear audio by connecting a headphone - 3.5 mm or usb C)? Shouldn't an amplifier suffice if we connect the mobile phone and amplifier with an aux/usb cable?

The only downside I see in this is that every time the car is used, one needs to mount the phone and connect it to the system. This might be too much for short drives. Any neat solution for mounting?

[viXit]

Voltage is the only problem

Originally Posted by manish84

Both of them come with only 4 speakers but no head unit. Toyota dealership is asking for 35k to install the head unit. Keen to know if this solution could save me some money.

So as I understand, I would need to buy a DAC and an amplifier to power the 4 pre-installed speakers.

You do not need a DAC. All phones' aux port (3.5mm) already is in analog. There is an inbuilt dac in the phones. You only need an amplifier.

Why do we need a DAC when the phone already gives out an audio output (as I can hear audio by connecting a headphone - 3.5 mm or usb C)? Shouldn't an amplifier suffice if we connect the mobile phone and amplifier with an aux/usb cable?

Just what greenhorn said above, most phones have a DAC that gives very low voltage, whereas amplifiers take in a 4V input. In order to compensate you have to increase the sensitivity of the amplifier, which will introduce distortion. You will need a DAC to compensate for this. For a basic setup you don't even need a dac if your phone is expensive and has a good dac in it.] But you can walk in to any car audio shop and try out your phone with a 3.5mm to rca stereo cable (red white yellow kinds) to guage the quality of such a setup without a dac.

The only downside I see in this is that every time the car is used, one needs to mount the phone and connect it to the system. This might be too much for short drives. Any neat solution for mounting?

there will be only one cable you need to connect to your phone. depending on your phone you will use either a USB C/B or an iPhone Lightning connector. All DACs have digital input via usb.

Like GTO said above, it comes down to a neat and elegant mounting solution.

for the 35k toyota is asking you, they better give you one hell of a head unit, or you could spend that on speakers and a good amp+DAC (DAC will send a 4V signal to the Amp) and your audio setup would be far superior to the stock setup, by a HUGE margin.

[manish84]

Originally Posted by viXit

there will be only one cable you need to connect to your phone. depending on your phone you will use either a USB C/B or an iPhone Lightning connector. All DACs have digital input via usb.

Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation.

In case I connect phone and DAC via bluetooth then it would be a digital input which DAC would convert to analog. But if I connect my 3.5 mm jack to the DAC, would I not input an analog signal to the DAC? How would DAC work then?

Also, speakers are pre-installed in Yaris. So I would need only DAC, amplifier and a phone cable to make it work. I would think that 15k would suffice for a decent sound quality. Sound about right?

[viXit]

Originally Posted by manish84

Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation.

In case I connect phone and DAC via bluetooth then it would be a digital input which DAC would convert to analog. But if I connect my 3.5 mm jack to the DAC, would I not input an analog signal to the DAC? How would DAC work then?

That is correct, Sir.
3.5mm is analog indeed. DACs take their input via a USB C , USB B, Micro B , or Lightning(iPhones)



This happens over digital protocols and not analog. Since it is using a USB cable. That's why DAC takes digital input via usb, not 3.5mm jack. Since the 3.5mm is analog. Some DACs give 3.5mm output but never input.

You cannot send input to DAC with 3.5mm jack.

EDIT

Originally Posted by manish84

=

Also, speakers are pre-installed in Yaris. So I would need only DAC, amplifier and a phone cable to make it work. I would think that 15k would suffice for a decent sound quality. Sound about right?

I am not familiar with the quality of the pre installed speakers in the yaris. But your amp+dac setup should be decent.

But bear in mind that you lose a lot of sound tuning features like crossover, Equaliser, Time alignment, etc. since you don't have a head unit.

But for a very basic, clean sounding setup, you should be all set with 15k, since you don't have to buy speakers. Very efficient and economical.

[viXit]

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

So what am I proposing? I have a rough sketch, which I need this wonderful community to validate and add flesh and bones to:

Bluetooth Amplifiers

These might help simplify the setup multifold!

[Bass&Trouble]

We have been doing this for quite some time now. In some of the higher end vehicles that do not permit oem integration and also in scenarios where rear seat entertainment is of higher priority and requiring features the stock front end is incapable of, such as OTT, high res audio, high def video, true surround sound etc. we have been incorporating parallel AV systems into vehicles that are completely independent of the stock sound.